Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[goozman96]

UPDATE: So, Dan Murtha decided to reach out to me in order to fix the situation. He asked me how much store credit I thought was fair and I said $1200 since that's how much I lost in the refund. I also said that I'd be willing to accept two S3s as well. He offered me $1000 credit and I agreed.
I hereby rescind/renounce/repudiate/abjure all the negative things I've said about Minersource and I will be sure to edit all recent posts referencing them to reflect this update.
Thanks Minersource for doing the right thing in the end.

[1714821063]

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[1714821063]

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[Pentax]

UPDATE: So, Dan Murtha decided to reach out to me in order to fix the situation. He asked me how much store credit I thought was fair and I said $1200 since that's how much I lost in the refund. I also said that I'd be willing to accept two S3s as well. He offered me $1000 credit and I agreed.
I hereby rescind/renounce/repudiate/abjure all the negative things I've said about Minersource and I will be sure to edit all recent posts referencing them to reflect this update.
Thanks Minersource for doing the right thing in the end.

that's great.  what sucks is that it took this level of bitching for them to do the right thing, and probably the realization that they were going to get sued into bankruptcy if they didn't.  it should not take months to not get fucked.

this is why our world has devolved into a cesspool.  people will fuck you if they they can get away with it and call it 'business'.  people get bitchy when you call out the legal dogs even if you've done everything else at your disposal to set things right and are still getting cornholed.  These assholes at BA are still holding people's money, and acting as if they have right to do so, which they do not.   

I'm glad Minersource made it right, although I think it was likely out of a sense of self preservation rather than a desire to do the right thing.  At the end of the day I don't think I'd buy from anyone in this market again.  Too much scum in the well to drink the water.

[DebitMe]

Bought 2 antminer s3's yesterday!

Never gonna preorder from a new chinese company again.
Any ideas on how to possibly get money from china back or is it game over for us???

Antminer S3's are a preorder. They aren't shipping and there is no guarantee they ever will.

Lol, i forgot that part too! Although given bmt and their history there is NO reason to believe they will not ship. They are most likely tested and in production now. Bitmain seems to have their shit together and as was stated isn't run buy eurotrash.

Bitmain has a proven track record of shipping on multiple generations of miners. I wouldn't hesitate preordering from them as sirsmokesalot pointed out, they're most likely already in the final assembly stage.

Completely agreed, I would go as far as to bet someone that the first miners actually start to ship before the 10th!

[goozman96]

http://blackarrowsoftwaredeceivedcustomers.com
It should be changed to say "Will be deployed next week"

[OgNasty]

So much crying in this thread, it has become absolutely useless as a place to get information on this situation.

[DebitMe]

I guess it's getting time for the refund option indeed. Unfortunately, I have to knock on BA's door...

+1

Now we pretty much know they're not even shipping the X1's, otherwise they'd be in here bragging about nonsense per usual.

If there would be deliveries, there would be public tracking numbers and pictures of pallets full of miners around to ease the ppl that funded all this mess.
I don't talk about those handful unfinished units that a few got.

+1

exactly -- asked them the same thing, no tracking info though, proving that there's nothing to track yet -- still...

I suggest, MS should make a combination of both a cancellation offer and some kind of compensation whereby they throw in one additional free machine (so we get the profitability we calculated when placing the order and sending payment. That was back in Feb or March, BTW)...

Other manufacturers (for example Mining ASICs Tech B. V. in the Netherlands) are doing exactly that, seriously: the compensate through "buy one and get one free"! And so should MS after those MASSIVE delays.

If there is no tracking number now, the units will not arrive until at least next week as the post office will be closed on friday.

[DebitMe]

I am sure, they will deliver the X3 "next week". 

"One week" is the new "2 weeks" from Butterfly Labs fame.   

Lesson learned, never pre-order any miners that come from a "Lab" or "Software" company.  If you absofuckinglutely have to order any mining equipment, make sure it's from a "Tech" company.  Bitmain and Spondoolies, I see you!   

Ironicly their own mining software is buggy to

I was going to say, I don't think I have seen one person get on here and say, "wow it sure was easy to get setup and running!"  So not only are their hardware engineers incompetent, but it seems that their software guys are something to be desired.  Maybe, they made a bet that each group would do the others tasks for this entire project, just to see if it could get done!

[notbatman]

A statement from Black Arrow regarding their promise to ship on February 24th 2014:

...

We've started the design in June. The only difference between us and our competitors is that we do not give unrealistic time frames which we know we cannot meet.

We are confident that we will deliver sooner but we do not make promises that we might not be able to fulfill.

It's now July 2014 and the X3 design is still not complete:

...

Following a thorough reviewing, the X-3 backplane has been put in production. The first batch will be delivered this weekend. We have several designs to our disposal and we have to decide which one was the best choice. We will be able to inform our customers on the X-3 shipping schedule within a few days.

...

-- Bitcoin Miners progress update - 27th of June 2014

4 months past the stated shipping date and this thing is still on the drawing board?

Oh, and by-the-way "a few days" have already passed.

Shipping next week? lol

 

[notbatman]

News/Updates can be found here:
http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/index.php?dispatch=news.list

And for those people that cannot be satisfied by this:
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/anger.html

 

I have another update that I was informed of:

The minion has passed the DRC checks. Mask manufacturing has begun. (This was as of last night)

For us laymen, does that mean they are on, ahead, or behind schedule?

It means the tapeout was successful and the next stage has begun. Basically, on schedule. Building the mask, as I understand it, is the most time consuming part of the process from here out. Once it's built, tested, and if necessary revised, they can make Minions until they run out of money or interest.

It unfortunately says nothing about the PCB's, SMT lines, or firmware. But the ASICS appear to (finally) be on track.

Anyone want to bet on whether Technobit has a working unit before BlackArrow using the Minion chip? They beat Bitmine...

And the winner is Technobit!

http://technobit.eu/index.php?id_product=79&controller=product&id_lang=1

[notbatman]

I have an idea, how about Black Arrow sends TechnoBit 128x minions per X3 and have them ship customers 32x 400Gh/s units and we call it square.

The units should arrive while the difficulty is around 20 billion and customers can enjoy the same benefits as if they received their units on the promised delivery date.

Getting what I paid for (minus LCD, PSU & controller) seems fair enough doesn't it?

[DebitMe]

good idea !! let the job to people who knows what they do really
and we'll get our stuff faster than this bullshit company
i vote for you  

I love it, lets remove BA from the only part of this project that they did!  After outsourcing the chip, and using how many different teams from God knows how many different companies to manufacture the power supply and control board, I am really left wondering what they actually did in house besides design a 3D printed case for everything to sit in, that was still wrong multiple times.

[Pentax]

Anyone that has a refund out with these people and would like to share the cost of an attorney, let me know.

If you have already have contacted me, I've got your info already, and will let you know when I have a short list of attorneys.

I'm looking for a lawyer in Shenzhen, have contacted a couple, and will get this process moving.

[Pentax]

This is a taste of what it's going to be like when they just pack up and fly by night, which for all we know may have already happened. It's not normal to claim that you're making some kind of shipment, not do it for almost a week now, and say absolutely nothing about it.

it is for these guys.

[Pentax]

Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Consumer Rights and InterestsChapter VII Legal Responsibility

Article 40 Business operators shall, if the commodities and services they supply involve any of the following circumstances, bear civil liability in accordance with the provisions of the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other relevant laws and regulations, except as otherwise provided in the present Law:

(1) there existing defects in the commodities;

(2) not possessing the properties for use they should possess and no declaration thereabout is made at the time of sale;

(3) not conforming to the standards indicated on the commodities or on the packaging thereof;

(4) not conforming to the state of quality indicated by the product description or by physical samples;

(5) producing commodities that have been formally declared by the State to be eliminated or selling commodities that are no longer effective or deteriorated;

(6) commodities sold being short of weight or quantity;

(7) contents and costs of services being not in conformity with the agreements;

8 - deliberately delaying or unreasonably refusing consumers' requests for repair, remanufacture, replacement, return of goods, makeup for the short commodities, return of payment for goods or services, or compensation for losses;

[notbatman]

Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Consumer Rights and InterestsChapter VII Legal Responsibility

Article 40 Business operators shall, if the commodities and services they supply involve any of the following circumstances, bear civil liability in accordance with the provisions of the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other relevant laws and regulations, except as otherwise provided in the present Law:

(1) there existing defects in the commodities;

Those who received the X1 test units reported that the units did not function correctly. Problems included incorrect airflow direction, controller shorting on the metal case and software glitches.   

(2) not possessing the properties for use they should possess and no declaration thereabout is made at the time of sale;

See section (6).

(3) not conforming to the standards indicated on the commodities or on the packaging thereof;

Units were stated to include an LCD touch display for the controller.

(4) not conforming to the state of quality indicated by the product description or by physical samples;

Stated 0.5W/Gh then revised to 0.75W/Gh. Reseller indicates it's 1W/Gh at the wall.

(5) producing commodities that have been formally declared by the State to be eliminated or selling commodities that are no longer effective or deteriorated;

Units will be obsolete if and/or when the customer receives them.

(6) commodities sold being short of weight or quantity;

Due to obsolescence of the units 550% in additional hashing power would be required to meet the original promise. Currently only 50% is being offered in the form of incomplete non-functional units requiring additional shipping fees. This also causes a violation of section (2) as the units are non-functional as a result of the missing proprietary PSU.

(7) contents and costs of services being not in conformity with the agreements;

Product was sated to ship around the 24th of February 2014 however dispatch of the units has not occurred to date.

8 - deliberately delaying or unreasonably refusing consumers' requests for repair, remanufacture, replacement, return of goods, makeup for the short commodities, return of payment for goods or services, or compensation for losses;

Refunds refused.

Black Arrow has violated every section of the PRC's consumer protection act. Not to mention fraud over $5000 for taking customers money based on a lie.

Not only is the customer getting the shaft but I'll also assume Black Arrow isn't reporting all the revenue they're generating with the customers ASICs.

[notbatman]

I may be a bit off on #7 but the contents are currently 0Th/s and not the 2Th/s as per the agreement. I'm sure I can get a solid hit on all 8 sections after a few revisions.

[Pentax]

Chapter III Obligations of Business Operators

Article 16 Business operators shall, in their supply of commodities and services to consumers, fulfill their obligations stipulated in the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other laws and regulations concerned.

In case an agreement is reached between business operators and consumers, the business operators shall fulfill the obligations agreed upon in the agreement; but the agreement between the two parties shall not contravene the provisions of laws and regulations.

Article 17 Business operators shall listen to the consumers' opinions on the commodities and services they supply and accept consumers' supervision.

Article 18 Business operators shall guarantee that the commodities and services they supply meet the requirements for personal or property safety. As to commodities and services liable to harm personal or property safety, business operators shall give the consumers truthful explanation and clear-cut warnings, and shall explain or indicate the correct ways of using the commodities or receiving services as well as the methods of preventing damage.

Business operators shall, upon discovery of serious defects of the commodities or services they supply which are liable to harm personal or property safety even though the commodities are correctly applied or services are received in a correct way, immediately report to the administrative departments concerned and inform the consumers, and adopt measures to prevent damage.

Article 19 Business operators shall provide consumers with authentic information concerning their commodities or services, and may not make any false and misleading propaganda.

Business operators shall give truthful and definite replies to inquiries from consumers about the qualities of the commodities or services they supply and the operation methods thereof.

Shops shall mark clearly the prices of the commodities they supply.

Article 20 Business operators shall indicate their real names and marks.

Business operators who lease counters or grounds from others shall indicate their own real names and marks.

Article 21 Business operators who supply commodities or services shall make out for consumers invoices for purchases or documents of services in accordance with relevant regulations of the State or commercial practices; business operators must produce such invoices or documents where consumers so demand.

Article 22 Business operators shall guarantee the quality, functions, usage and term of validity which the commodities or services they supply should possess under normal operation or acceptance, except that consumers are aware of the defects before they buy the commodities or receive the services.

Business operators who employ advertisements, product instructions, samples or other ways to display the quality state of their commodities or services shall guarantee that the actual quality of the commodities or services they supply is in conformity with that demonstrated.

Article 23 Business operators who are under the obligation of repair or caveat venditor, or other responsibilities in accordance with regulations of the State or agreements with consumers shall carry out such obligations correspondingly according to such regulations or agreements, and may not deliberately delay or unreasonably refuse to do so.

Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.

Article 25 Business operators may not insult or slander consumers, may not search the body of consumers or the articles they carry with them, and may not violate the personal freedom of consumers.

[Pentax]

Article 39 Consumers whose legitimate rights and interests are infringed upon on account of commodities or services supplied by business operators by means of false advertisement may demand compensations from the business operators. Consumers may demand the competent administrative departments to punish the advertising agents who make false advertisements. Advertising agents who cannot provide the real names and addresses of the business operators shall be liable for compensation.

[Pentax]

Article 47 Business operators who supply commodities or services in the form of advance payment shall provide their commodities or services according to the agreements. Business operators who fail to provide their commodities or services according to the agreements shall fulfil the agreements or return the advance payment on the demand of the consumers, and shall also bear the interest of the advance payment and other necessary expenses that the consumers have to pay.

[Pentax]

If you are in Germany maybe these people can help:

http://www.consumerprotection-productsafety.org/index.php?lang=en