Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[goozman96]

Consider the fact that KNC and Coinerra beat blackarrow and will cause the difficulty to rise much more, thus any compensation provided after the fact will be worth less.

[OleOle]

Very disappointed. I sort of knew it but wanted to give them the benefit of doubt.... Batch1 will coincide with the delivery of the Batch2.... blarrrr

Everyone over-promise but under delivers.

-------------------------------------------
 We have to inform you that our schedule to manufacture and assemble the system has been disrupted and we are unable to make delivery of the Batch 1 Minion ASIC chip on the initial scheduled date (end of February). We are now expecting to dispatch all Batch 1 orders on 1st of May 2014.

Please be re-assured we are confident that we have tried our best to accomplish our initial ambitious targets. However, we came to the conclusion that it is in the best interest of our customers to delay shipping in order to ensure that the product provides the best-possible user experience.

Without this delay we would have achieved 1.5W/Ghash which would have meant that our chip would not have been competitive at all.

We have now finalized the design process using our newly improved code and will start manufacturing the chip (tape out) in the next few days.

We are happy to announce that Black Arrow Software’s products remain on target for being the best in their class for power consumption. We confirm that our latest improved design has the following technical specifications:

    ·0.75w/Ghash on TT corner @ 25C which is expected to run at 120Ghash/sec.

    ·SS corner will be 0.6w/ghash and will run at 100Ghash.

    ·A further underclocking and underpower should be possible and should yield 80Ghash @ 0.5W/ghash. However, please note that this is not guaranteed to work stable.

Please note, that a further push for improvement in the optimization process would have guaranteed further delays for at least 1-2 months.

It is no secret to us that the Bitcoin mining process is proving to be more and more difficult every day. To compensate our loyal customer for the unforeseen delay of in delivering our miners for batch 1, we are happy to offer free extra hashing power which consists of 25% of your purchased hashing power from our Rent-Some-Minions cloud program for 4 months.

The account for the tape-out has been settled in full and we are confident that the delivery will be completed shortly.

We are taking all the necessary measures and positive actions to expedite delivery to you as soon possible and we are confident that we have the resources to be successful.

Please note:

    ·We estimate that the delivery for the Batch1 will coincide with the delivery of the Batch2

    ·The delivery of Batch2 remains unchanged

    ·The one-off offer presented above is open to the customers who placed orders for Batch1

Sincerely,
The Black Arrow Software Team
----------------------

I can confirm this message, got this in an email ~22 minutes ago.

^ You have to go back to page 81 to read this announcement that BA were unable to meet their promised deadlines and that in place of delayed hardware, they'll be offering 25% of the purchased hashing power in cloud format while they try meet their new deadline.

What followed was a general outcry of customers and concerned citizens declaring that they were unhappy and wanted more information and answers to why they'd been kept in the dark by BA for so long.

The limited information which didn't really qualify as answers at all from BA wasn't very persuasive so the level of outcry increased.

It's as yet unclear whether the limited information provided by BA contradicts their previously provided production guidance and, you guessed it, this increased the level of outcry further.

It's safe to say that this has been one of the worst PR responses to customer breach of contract that I've ever seen in any industry. In the absence of any proper comment from the company, speculation, hyperbole, diatribe and investigative efforts have been pursued to shock, shame and scare some information from BA who appear so disorganised that not only can they not manage to take control of this their own official thread, they've displayed a sheer lack of comprehension of why they're subject to the understandable backlash that when customers who have paid for their product and get treated with very little courtesy, that customers get very angry and demand information and accountability.

However, if you've only joined this thread recently, you'll probably perceive that the outcry is being characterised as 'fanbois' on the one side and 'trolls' on the other which, sadly, tends to deflect from the very genuine attempts of customers demanding to know when they'll get what they paid for or how they go about getting a refund.

[OleOle]

...
The limited information which didn't really qualify as answers at all from BA wasn't very persuasive so the level of outcry increased.
...

Well .. if you look through all the shit that's been posted ... which takes quite awhile now due to the exorbitant amount of shit there is ... you will also find on topic posts: that the issue was announced, the 25% thing was stated, then more ongoing discussion about that was stated also, and that is happening about now.

So yeah really all that has happened is, there is information in those 20 pages about what is CURRENTLY happening, but you have to sift though all the shit to find it ... as you yourself clearly haven't succeeded in doing either ...

Kano, just so you know, your post counts as shit by your own yardstick as there isn't anything definitive to say other than people aren't happy with the 25% announcement they received by email. If there is, why did you cease to quote or paraphrase it? Maybe you just preferred critique. No matter, everything you said was shit.

So you can keep the general criticism and shit flowing out of your mouth if you like but you're not fooling anyone, the only thing you're saying is shit. The reason you don't know what's going on is that you've rocked up recently and you haven't been following what is going on. Sure, you might have read it, but you still can't really follow it by your own admission.

So cut the shit Kano, or you'll be wading through even more shit, half of it by your own making.

[Pentax]

If BA could afford to give people double their hash or machines don't you think they'd of done this?  They know how this works.  They don't need someone to explain to them the difficulty rises every ten days stuff and so what was expected isn't going to be of the same value as 25% extra hash rate for four months.  They know that.  They just can't afford to give away double the machines or 100% extra hash is most likely the issue.

If they could, they would have sold 4TH miners instead of 2TH and still profit from it.  

No, they would likely not have.  

There is absolutely no reason to sell 4 Th/s for the same or relatively close price as a company can sell 2 Th/s.  If nothing else keep the other 2 Th/s and mine for yourself.  

Any business' goal is to maximize profits for itself.  It's their entire reason for existence.  We're not buddies, pals, or friends.  Most corporations will give the least amount they can for the buck, and in this case the least amount of compensation they can reasonably get away with.  Not because they're evil, but because they're running a business.  

At this point the other companies have stepped up, making this compensation based on delays a competitive factor.  Pre-orders are risky stuff, everyone knows that.  To this point all of that risk has been on the customers, however, this paradigm has shifted, with the other majors realizing that this will not work in the long term, as competition emerges in the marketplace and consumers have a more robust range of choices.

In the future, who gets your 5-10K, the company that made sure you didn't take a serious hit, and therefore reduces your risk when asking you to fund their R&D via pre-orders; or the company that does not compensate properly relative to the competition, thereby making their products and company the riskiest proposition in the market, for the same $/Gh.  At that point the others have relatively little risk, the one with inadequate compensation is a total crapshoot and you might be firing your several thousand dollars down a mineshaft.  It's a no-brainer.  No one in their right mind would send money to a company that provides little to no insurance for it, for lack of a better term, while their direct competition is doing otherwise.  

[OleOle]

Haha! That's funny! I cannot understand why you're at a such a loss to understand what is going on then Kano. You could maybe chill on the critique and if you're in any way associated with BA it might be an idea to let them know that they're getting reputationally hammered and that no amount of page deletions is going to change that.

The way to stop the outcry is to engage in serious customer dialogue, not continue the crappy little remarks that have masqueraded as 'information'.

Let's see how it goes from here, seems like another day, another denial and the pitiful head-in-the-sand behaviour from BA. It really doesn't cut it.

[OleOle]

There is so much butthurt showing in this thread, there should be a NSFW label in the topic.

That's what happens when you pre-order. It's a licence to get your butt hurt by well-meaning and not-so-well-meaning hardware producers.

Good of you to chime in Lombriz, perhaps you're a customer who's also hurting, if so you've been categorized as a 'fanboi'. If you're not a customer, then you must ipso facto be a 'troll'.

There's a third category called 'mutes', that's reserved for senior management of BA on who's silence the whole game is played, a game where they and their customers always lose.



Of course if you've really been watching closely, you'll know that customers themselves are also being characterised as 'trolls' if they're not buying the '75% scam' in lieu of actual delivery of their gear.

So what this thread is really about is a few fanbois who love getting butt hurt while customers and everyone else are just trolling while we all wait for those dumb asses the mutes to say anything meaningful.

[DebitMe]

LOL, check this 24 PH/s  

View Screen Capture

View Screen Capture

Hey buds, that calculator sucks.  Here's the same calculator from November of 2013...



NOTICE ANYTHING DIFFERENT?

Caltulator is good,  you can manually calculate and check .

Sir you are wrong, but this is not the place to argue that.

[goozman96]

Weren't we told that they didn't have the capacity to ship all of batch 1 at once? That's why they had a batch 1 round 1 and round 2. Now, all of a sudden, they can ship all of batch 1 together, PLUS all of batch 2?
I'd like an explanation for that one..

[goozman96]

So we'd receive them in the middle of May essentially?

[goozman96]

I appreciate it.

I have arrived back in denver, I will get some quick things out quick, then going to pass out.


Communication:
BA and the re sellers are putting together a new system of communication, to aid in the internal communication, and the communication with our customers and the community. We are looking at a bevy of options, including some sort of newsletter, to official twitter. Please let us know if you have any suggestions.

Customer Service:
I have completed highering of additional guys here at minersource, and they are working through training now. Expect better response times, and phone hours in the future. BA has also hired many additional staff and should see an improvement as well.

Tape out/Verisilicon/Chips
Besides what is covered under NDA (I know I know... but a NDA is a NDA), I can assure you I have seen the full contracts with BA and Verisilicon, and that BA has paid them in full. The other re sellers can confirm this. Based on all the info I have, the May 1 day is quite firm. No guarantees as you guys know by now, but thats the best I can do.

Status of other Parts:
The PCBs pretty much designed (waiting for those final pin specs as said before), the heatsinks are done, the custom 1400w psus are done, the controller and its software are in their final phases. I will get additional info and pictures on this as soon as I can.

We will also have a much greater presence at trade shows, we will publish a list as soon as we sign up for them. We will at least be at Quakecon 2014.


EDIT2:
I have some pics from the trip... nothing really important or relevant, but id be happy to post them if anyone wants.

Just quoting this cuz I missed it and I'm sure others may have as well.

[goozman96]

So there has been no revision to the 25% for 4 months offer?

[goozman96]

Can you tell us what is under the NDA? Not what you know that you can't divulge, but what the topic is. Does that make sense?

[goozman96]

When will you be at liberty to say? Or will you ever be at liberty to say?

[OleOle]

anyone want to buy my x-3?

How much are you selling it for and do you have any idea when it will be delivered? 

[Pentax]

I've not heard anything officially on refunds yet. In all honesty, I'd wait on asking for a refund till we figure out our best possible compensation package. I'm going to keep pressing that issue with my higher ups.

They didn't even tell you they missed the tapeout deadline. What kind of compensation package can you get? We are about to lose a significant amount of bitcoins no matter what happens next. Unless the chip manufacturing is reversed, this thing is fubar. It will not be competitive versus AM's chips and probably KnC's as well. On top of that it will be TWO MONTHS late.

I agree, mostly.

If BA steps up and makes it right, as have the other major manufacturers at this point, this will all be an unpleasant memory.

If BA does not, while it's competitors do, it is BA itself that will likely be an unpleasant memory.

I'm willing to give them a few days/week to run scenarios and figure out what they can do.  I can see how this is now a scramble and will take some time, however, I also know how fast companies can move when they want to, so more than a week or so to come to a decision will only be chalked up to foot dragging.  

I've seen the largest companies on earth move like lightning when it suits their purpose; and then flip and take months to "accomplish" something simple that doesn't contribute to their bottom line, stalling so that they can either try to figure out another option or slip out of their obligation altogether.  

At this point I'm willing to wait for a few days, maybe a week, to allow the gears to turn.  I fully understand the fact that they've seemingly had months at this point to sort this out, and I'm not any happier than anyone else with what I see as willful and intentional obfuscation of what was going on while they continued to tell people everything was just fine and continued booking orders, but I'm allowing for the possibility that they have really only now begun to take this issue of delay based compensation seriously.

Get the accountants/finance/engineering teams together and lock them in a room until a few somethings, in terms of scenarios, drop down the chute that make mathematical sense.   I would add legal to that group, but that's not what this is about.  If BA decides to take a legal tap-dance means out of this, which I know will be an attractive option, the customers will be screwed, and in the long run BA will have ruined their reputation.

At the end of the day it's the end result that matters most, at least to me, so I think this situation is salvageable for the customers and BA.  If they make it right, none of this matters, as, for me, this is about money and absolutely nothing else.   That may not be the case with everyone, and all of this is just my opinion, naturally.  

[DebitMe]

Well that is highly disappointing, promises of some big update and news and changes and all we get is the re-seller coming forward with "details" that most of us could have probably guessed.  No updates on how to obtain a refund, no updates on where the chips are at, no updates on a better compensation package.  Basically every question that we asked was ignored.

AND on top of that, we get informed that it may be another two weeks into May before we receive our miners.  Actually now that i think about it, this may not be entirely true.  Are they supposed to be at MinerSource within 2 weeks?  Or shipped from BA in 2 weeks?  Because if they are only shipping for 2 weeks into May, then it could be another week or two until we see our miners due to transportation and customs.

Thank you Bobsag for the expedited shipping, that is an extra day of mining for us, at least its something, but will put a small dent in the 2 months of mining lost to the delay.  Bobsag, you seem to be doing a good job speaking on behalf of BA, since they cannot seem to do it themselves, but please comment on if you will allow a refund.  A yes or a no is what is needed so that we can explore all of our options.  BA says they are working on a better compensation package, but they have said many things and like all of their sayings, I am taking it with a grain of salt that anything better will be offered.  And if that is the case, then a refund is the best option for me as well as others at this point.  So please publicly state if you will give a refund for those who asked.  If it is a problem with you getting the money back from BA, then I do not see what the problem is, since they believe this will still be such a successful launch, then not many people should be requesting refunds and the cost will be minimal.  If thats not the case, then we need to know.

[DebitMe]

Hey, Matt. I just found this seller on eBay claiming to be a reseller of Black Arrow bitcoin miners: rivalnetworksptyltd

Rival Networks PTY LTD / BitMiners is the exclusive reseller for Prospero BitCoin Equipment

Look forward to you confirming the above to make sure he's legit and, if he is, was he also at the Black Arrow reseller meetup there in the UK?

Thanks, bud.

~Bruno Kucinskas

HAHA 30 GH/s for 1499 for a year!  Thats crazy!  Also funny that under their description it says "Start Mining Now!" and yet this is for a contract that starts in March.  Hilarious

[DebitMe]

Quick question about the renders, and I do not know anything about what a render means, but they are just questions I had when looking at them.

Where will the Ethernet port be located?  Some pictures have it on the front, others have it on the back?

Are those USB ports on the front of some of the renders?  What would that be used for?

Some of the renders have a small hole next to the on button, whats that for?

I like the screen and if it shows that information it would be cool, but will there be a way to turn them off?  I dont really need 10+ units stacked together each showing the exact same thing.

IDK if there are any answers for this yet, but just some things I was wondering from looking at the pictures. 

[goozman96]

Are they keeping these "surprises" under wraps for now cuz they don't want their competitors to catch wind?

[goozman96]

Quick question about the renders, and I do not know anything about what a render means, but they are just questions I had when looking at them.

Where will the Ethernet port be located?  Some pictures have it on the front, others have it on the back?

Are those USB ports on the front of some of the renders?  What would that be used for?

Some of the renders have a small hole next to the on button, whats that for?

I like the screen and if it shows that information it would be cool, but will there be a way to turn them off?  I dont really need 10+ units stacked together each showing the exact same thing.

IDK if there are any answers for this yet, but just some things I was wondering from looking at the pictures. 

I'd like to know as well. In addition, it looks like there's an HDMI port on the back.