ANTMINER S4 2TH/s, Batch 1 on Sale this week, shipping before Sept. Ends

[ChuckBuck]

I am curious and anxiously awaiting to see what the S3+ B10 prices at. Our B8 and B9 units are working great.

I think BitMain honestly got a little screwed by the big price drop of Bitcoin, even with the paypal recovery it's not enough. They are in business to make money, which you can't fault them for. Smart business owners look to achieve the highest profit margins based on supply and demand, cost reduction, and other factors.

The fact that they are pricing the unit at 1450 is simply them saying they are more profitable for them to sell slowly, or sell at a lower price down the line, after mining BTC direct with the units in the meantime. You can't fault them for that.

Lastly, and perhaps the most important point to consider:  While I have no way of knowing what their actual profit margins are on these units, I have a feeling it's a fraction of the selling price. Consider their costs both fixed and variable; Fixed: Staff, Research and Development, Overhead (Rent, AC, Insurance, Interest, Technology), and then add the Variable costs:  Production cost per unit, materials, waste, shipping per unit, handling returns and repairs, etc.

So if on a 1450 unit (3.38BTC) their realized profit margin on X units sold at the end of the fiscal year is (Wildly guessing) $400, which is likely a higher number than they actually see, then what they are doing is making the right business move. Keep the unit for just 1 Month and mine .5 BTC and their unit margin for profit is now $612 provided they can still get $1450 point of sale for the unit.

Makes business sense to me. Can't fault them for that.

Strato

Bitmain wouldn't sell the S4 at $1450 if BTC value was much higher.  It'd still be much higher than it's competitors are charging, and history proves this.

Just look at when they first priced the S2 back in March for April launch:

MARCH 14, 2014
FOR IMMIDIATE RELEASE

Contact: info@bitmaintech.com
URL: https://www.bitmaintech.com

AntMiner S2 1TH/s Miner (1w/GH/s) in Production

The 1st Batch of AntMiner S2 will be shipped out on April 1st. AntMiner S2 will be available in the global market for a price of $3,899.

This was already when A1s and Dragons were already selling similiar 1 TH/s miners in the low to mid $2000s.

This is nothing new.  This what you call a fuck job.

[1714156215]

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[OneCardShy]

I own three S2's (1THs) that run right at 550-720GHs poolside if rebooted twice a week. Otherwise less. One has a hashing board that dies after 5-6 hours (all x's) until it get s hard boot.

I had hoped to bump them out of service, replacing them with S4's. After seeing the initial release price, there's no way I can gamble another round. I got taken once. It won't happen again. Sorry, Bitmain. Not even close to being worth the risk. I see how you treated me on S2's and S3 Batch 1-4. Your customer relations are as shaky as your hardware.

(Full disclosure: I have ten S1's and two S3+'s and love every one of them. The S2's are just absolute dogs and S4 pricing is a farce.)

What about holding out to see what the S2 Upgrade kit looks like?

The experience that you and many others have had with S2s is a reason why I will never buy a batch 1 product from any manufacturer.  I'd rather let impatient people be the testers and I'll wait for price to come down and see how they are working for people before I buy.

I am definitely hanging in there for the S2 upgrade kits... the only reason I haven't given up and ditched my units on ebay. I don't have very high hopes though after seeing what a joke the S1 upgrade kit price is compared to a new S3+. I was all set to buy ten of them until I calculated how much I would lose in hashing speed vs. lose in fiat with the upgrades. That's why I own the S3+'s now. S1 upgrades were not a responsible choice.

I was proud of being an Ant farm... now I cannot wait for the next developer to come along. My loyalty has been taken for granted and Bitmain is trying to stick it to everybody, first by driving up difficulty competing and then by their equipment prices and customer standards. I know they are a business out to make money, but they shouldn't then also pretend to be our friend. This is a world of business, and they are simply practicing the hard and shady side of it.

My 0.02.

C'mon manufacturers. Gimme SOMETHING to spend my money on already.

-OCS

[mrpark]

1450 USD? No way.. With the new difficulty level, you would make less than $300 a month. It would take 5 months for it to break even.

[sjc1490]

This isn't 'Good Business" it is plain old GREED. I have 4 S2's left and I was going to look at grabbing 5 if they came in at the 2 to 2.25 mark but no way now. I am seriously looking at the Prisma GB as I have a strong feeling the upgrade will still be at a FU price. And it does look like they priced off the SP20.

[Stratobitz]

This isn't 'Good Business" it is plain old GREED. I have 4 S2's left and I was going to look at grabbing 5 if they came in at the 2 to 2.25 mark but no way now. I am seriously looking at the Prisma GB as I have a strong feeling the upgrade will still be at a FU price. And it does look like they priced off the SP20.

Who isn't greedy

Strato

[dlowings]

It's clear that they are trying to discourage hardware ownership for the individual so that they can develop their more profitable cloud mining project. If they raise the price of the hardware they peddle it will push more people to their cloud product. Any way you cut it, its just a money move for them.. They can't be happy with taking a small profit on product development and sales, they want it all. so it is a clear case of greed in my opinion .

[dlowings]

This isn't 'Good Business" it is plain old GREED. I have 4 S2's left and I was going to look at grabbing 5 if they came in at the 2 to 2.25 mark but no way now. I am seriously looking at the Prisma GB as I have a strong feeling the upgrade will still be at a FU price. And it does look like they priced off the SP20.

Of course its going to be at the FU price, they want to drive people to their cloud project… It was a win win for them ...

[MrTeal]

That price is outrageous! Even with free electricity (and assuming a 15% ave diff increase) it will produce less than 2 bitcoins over its lifetime.  Thats right, wont even 50% ROI with free electricity.

I truly feel sorry for anyone dumb enough to buy this machine at those prices.

There won't be a 15% average difficulty increase for long if BTC stay at this price. Sure there's a bunch of hardware already paid for, but you can see the reason why in the last two pages here, and in your post. People are not going to purchase more mining gear unless the price goes back up.

Even someone paying 6c/kWh and 0.5J/GH gear would be spending everything he earned on power at 240B difficulty, let along paying down the money he used to purchase it. That would happen in early March with a 15%/jump increase. The question is though, at the end of December when the difficulty is 105B (@15%), who is going to be buying the equipment to keep the rise going if the price isn't moving up? At the point somebody running (not yet produced) gear at 0.35J/GH with 0.15c/kWh power will make less than $1 per day per Terahash/s. Even the guy at 6c/kWh is only making $1.5 per Terahash/s.

Even with cheap power, no one will be buying @ 100B unless it's <0.5J/GH and <$0.2/TH/s. That's $400 for an S4, and while they might sell excess inventory for that price they can't produce an S4 for $400, let alone less than $400 shipped and make a small profit.

[dlowings]

That price is outrageous! Even with free electricity (and assuming a 15% ave diff increase) it will produce less than 2 bitcoins over its lifetime.  Thats right, wont even 50% ROI with free electricity.

I truly feel sorry for anyone dumb enough to buy this machine at those prices.

There won't be a 15% average difficulty increase for long if BTC stay at this price. Sure there's a bunch of hardware already paid for, but you can see the reason why in the last two pages here, and in your post. People are not going to purchase more mining gear unless the price goes back up.

Even someone paying 6c/kWh and 0.5J/GH gear would be spending everything he earned on power at 240B difficulty, let along paying down the money he used to purchase it. That would happen in early March with a 15%/jump increase. The question is though, at the end of December when the difficulty is 105B (@15%), who is going to be buying the equipment to keep the rise going if the price isn't moving up? At the point somebody running (not yet produced) gear at 0.35J/GH with 0.15c/kWh power will make less than $1 per day per Terahash/s. Even the guy at 6c/kWh is only making $1.5 per Terahash/s.

Even with cheap power, no one will be buying @ 100B unless it's <0.5J/GH and <$0.2/TH/s. That's $400 for an S4, and while they might sell excess inventory for that price they can't produce an S4 for $400, let alone less it for $400 shipped and make a small profit.

your last sentence tells it all ….

[Tupsu]

Bitmain wouldn't sell the S4 at $1450 if BTC value was much higher.  It'd still be much higher than it's competitors are charging, and history proves this.

.

For comparison only 1 competitor:
SpondooliesTech SP20 price and shipping cost. $1,190.00+$160 (EU) +$119 (US) second half of October and no PSU only  1,7TH/s

Which one is cheaper?

[tripppn]

I own three S2's (1THs) that run right at 550-720GHs poolside if rebooted twice a week. Otherwise less. One has a hashing board that dies after 5-6 hours (all x's) until it get s hard boot.

I had hoped to bump them out of service, replacing them with S4's. After seeing the initial release price, there's no way I can gamble another round. I got taken once. It won't happen again. Sorry, Bitmain. Not even close to being worth the risk. I see how you treated me on S2's and S3 Batch 1-4. Your customer relations are as shaky as your hardware.

(Full disclosure: I have ten S1's and two S3+'s and love every one of them. The S2's are just absolute dogs and S4 pricing is a farce.)

What about holding out to see what the S2 Upgrade kit looks like?

The experience that you and many others have had with S2s is a reason why I will never buy a batch 1 product from any manufacturer.  I'd rather let impatient people be the testers and I'll wait for price to come down and see how they are working for people before I buy.

I am definitely hanging in there for the S2 upgrade kits... the only reason I haven't given up and ditched my units on ebay. I don't have very high hopes though after seeing what a joke the S1 upgrade kit price is compared to a new S3+. I was all set to buy ten of them until I calculated how much I would lose in hashing speed vs. lose in fiat with the upgrades. That's why I own the S3+'s now. S1 upgrades were not a responsible choice.

I was proud of being an Ant farm... now I cannot wait for the next developer to come along. My loyalty has been taken for granted and Bitmain is trying to stick it to everybody, first by driving up difficulty competing and then by their equipment prices and customer standards. I know they are a business out to make money, but they shouldn't then also pretend to be our friend. This is a world of business, and they are simply practicing the hard and shady side of it.

My 0.02.

C'mon manufacturers. Gimme SOMETHING to spend my money on already.

-OCS

I have a feeling the S2 upgrade will be much more reasonable compaired to the S1 kit.  The S1 upgrade was basically an unassembled S3 where the S2 should pretty much just be boards.  No PSU, no case, no fan upgrades.  

If I had to guess, I would guess the upgrade will be priced at about 1000.  A very reasonable price compared to a full S4

[mrpark]

Guys, hold the 3.5 BTC, if BTC goes up then you are in the green. That is my advice. Not only would this not ROI, you might also need to cool it. "Shipping before Sept. ends", not to me

[vortexz]

just buy 3,5 BTC instead.if it goes up you're good ROI !!!
 

[mrpark]

I used to HATE people who said buy BTC instead of mining, but in this case you guys are right (Including me)

[ChuckBuck]

Bitmain wouldn't sell the S4 at $1450 if BTC value was much higher.  It'd still be much higher than it's competitors are charging, and history proves this.

.

For comparison only 1 competitor:
SpondooliesTech SP20 price and shipping cost. $1,190.00+$160 (EU) +$119 (US) second half of October and no PSU only  1,7TH/s

Which one is cheaper?

You're looking at the wrong competitor.  Spondoolies has been overpriced from the jump.

Here's the right one:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=795477.0

Now put the numbers together....

[Biodom]

Does anybody have indication of
"cannot identify passport.bitmain.com" when trying to login.
it says "the certificate of the website is invalid. you might be connecting to a website that is pretending to be "passport.bitmain.com"

[mrpark]

Bitmain wouldn't sell the S4 at $1450 if BTC value was much higher.  It'd still be much higher than it's competitors are charging, and history proves this.

.

For comparison only 1 competitor:
SpondooliesTech SP20 price and shipping cost. $1,190.00+$160 (EU) +$119 (US) second half of October and no PSU only  1,7TH/s

Which one is cheaper?

You're looking at the wrong competitor.  Spondoolies has been overpriced from the jump.

Here's the right one:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=795477.0

Now put the numbers together....

Neither will ROI, and spondoolies are loud as 100 lawn mowers so most people cant use it.

[dlowings]

Bitmain wouldn't sell the S4 at $1450 if BTC value was much higher.  It'd still be much higher than it's competitors are charging, and history proves this.

.

For comparison only 1 competitor:
SpondooliesTech SP20 price and shipping cost. $1,190.00+$160 (EU) +$119 (US) second half of October and no PSU only  1,7TH/s

Which one is cheaper?

if you had to pick what would you want the SP 20 or the S4… look at the resale value of the Spondoolies units vs the Bitmain units.. I use to be a die hard Bitmain fan, but its now obvious they don't want to compete they want to price fix and screw everyone… you can sugar coat it any way you want but thats the truth .. If I had to pick I would pick the Spondoolies unit hands down now because when I go to resell there is a far better chance of having a higher value that might help me get ROI even though at these difficulty level I doubt it. when you look at the life cycle of the both products Bitmain is not even in the same ball game as Spondoolies tech any more IMO … If I had the money I would have got the SP35 and called it good.

[mrpark]

Does anybody have indication of
"cannot identify passport.bitmain.com" when trying to login.
it says "the certificate of the website is invalid. you might be connecting to a website that is pretending to be "passport.bitmain.com"

After I saw the price of the S4, I didn't want to connect anymore

[mrpark]

Bitmain wouldn't sell the S4 at $1450 if BTC value was much higher.  It'd still be much higher than it's competitors are charging, and history proves this.

.

For comparison only 1 competitor:
SpondooliesTech SP20 price and shipping cost. $1,190.00+$160 (EU) +$119 (US) second half of October and no PSU only  1,7TH/s

Which one is cheaper?

if you had to pick what would you want the SP 20 or the S4… look at the resale value of the Spondoolies units vs the Bitmain units.. I use to be a die hard Bitmain fan, but its now obvious they don't want to compete they want to price fix and screw everyone… you can sugar coat it any way you want but thats the truth .. If I had to pick I would pick the Spondoolies unit hands down now because when I go to resell there is a far better chance of having a higher value that might help me get ROI even though at these difficulty level I doubt it. when you look at the life cycle of the both products Bitmain is not even in the same ball game as Spondoolies tech any more IMO … If I had the money I would have got the SP35 and called it good.

SP20, SP35 and S4 are all NOTHING BURGERS as Mr. Wonderful says on shark tank. I don't think they will ROI. Seriously, do the math and save your money. If you want miners, buy old ones from Bitcointalk.