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[unusualfacts30]

I can't believe that this guy is acting like he is above smart just because he was able to backstab his team and steal investors money in a market which is famous for p&d and scams. It's not magic and it's far from being "clever"...anyone with good amount of BTC can play with the market so get off your high horse.

You're no wolf of wallstreet and you ain't no Charles Ponzi. It's all fun and game until bigger fish arrives.

[mr_random]

Did you know that when BC started someone held about 75% of it? (blackhandgroup)

Don't make shit up and present it as facts.

[digicidal]

This this a complete assumtion. 100% incorrect buddy. I'm one of the only devs in the world to be this transparent. I went above and beyond, just not on this thread. Read this and eat your own words... http://www.reddit.com/r/BitBay/comments/2p90g5/official_statement/


Also, dont defend barrabas, read a few posts back, he is a Bob profile. barrabas would also say things that only Bob knew from a private phone convo.

As far as distribution is concernded did you know that someone probably currently holds roughly 20% of BC? (blackwavelabs)
Did you know that when BC started someone held about 75% of it? (blackhandgroup)
Distribution of coins is never going to be even if anything Bay is distributed no differently than any other coin.

While I certainly would not agree that "Bay is distributed no differently than any other coin", I do appreciate your post on reddit - it clears up some things from your side.  I didn't bother to go through the rest of the addresses, but I presume there are 10-11 with ~8M BAY in each?... so that's the 90M you refer to in this post:

OK we will catch Bob in the first lie. I have roughly 90 million BitBay. And I can prove it with addresses. I have never sold a single one. They were bought for me. So again nice try.

You also received BTC from the ICO (as you should have - I'm not disputing that one bit)... in fact, you should have gotten a whole lot more, since they leveraged your name/reputation/software... basically your everything.  What you got was no where close to covering what you will have to defend forever likely.

However, one point still seems to elude you (or at least eludes me since you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary):

Where did those BAY come from? They were bought during the ICO, correct?  They were purchased by 'the team' (regardless of which specific individuals we're referring to) correct?  So did any of those people receive so much as a single BTC from the ICO proceeds?  As an investor, particularly one that was very vocal in support of you until the truth came out - this is the one question that you have not now, nor seemingly will ever answer clearly.

If any of the team paid BTC into the ICO and received BTC back again... then they got free BAY - which is the same as a premine (and perfectly acceptable if disclosed).  As importantly, since that artificially inflated the ICO, because they weren't purchased by new hands - coins that should have been burned, were in fact simply kept by the team.  This deflated the value of investor-held BAY, but did not deflate the value of your own - how could it, since it was free?

I'm well aware of the history of BC as I was there from day 0 mining it and buying it... what happened with BC was a shame, but until I see conclusive proof that rat4 was a primary player in it - it's not the same thing as this is.  If you have proof that the 'blackhand' group worked with rat4 directly and that he was paid BC/BTC then you need to publish - but until then, I will continue to believe that he was 100% innocent of that, and the rest was simply market manipulation from a group who picked the right coin at the right time to make the PnD of all time happen. (Or more accurately the DnPnD of all time).  

...But this isn't about BC - BC wasn't an ICO, Pavel didn't get free BC from buying BC and then getting his BTC back.  As far as Blackwave Labs is concerned... so?? Just like everyone else (other than you, Steven, Lin, and Bob's group in the case of BAY) they bought their BC on the open market, for current market prices, and they didn't get to keep the BTC they bought it with!  I'm perfectly fine with their BC, just as I'm perfectly fine with your BC - because in both cases they're the same as my BC.

What is different is that my BAY was never (even from day 1) the same as your BAY.

While I appreciate your transparency now, and I certainly hope your development is successful - because we do really need these markets - you seem to consistently play the martyr on this.  If you had been  even 25% transparent (in the beginning) you wouldn't have to be any more transparent now.  It's not the ones that got scammed fault that you're the one being suspected here!  It would be a little gratifying to hear you represent a little more humility and acceptance of that fact - YOU vouched for a scam, and now you present the attitude that the only one that is the victim was YOU.  

WTF? SMH.  

Let me distill that for you to two honest scenarios:
1) If the Bitbay team had received only BTC from the ICO and no BAY at all - then you could have bought as much BAY as you felt was reasonable after the markets opened.  In fact, that would only have meant price-support and shown confidence in the long-term prospects of the coin.  Likely would have meant that many BAY would be destroyed, but that also would help the price and confidence.

2) Disclosed up front that there would be a premine (you wouldn't have to say how it would be split, just that there was one) of ~40%, then gotten those coins for free and held the ICO for only the remaining 600M BAY... and burned the unsold coins at the end.  You would likely have sold far fewer BAY during the ICO, but for those that still felt it was an acceptable risk... they would stand to hold a larger percentage after the destruction of the unsold amount (and so would you).

Neither of these things happened... correct?

[dzimbeck]

Did you know that when BC started someone held about 75% of it? (blackhandgroup)

Don't make shit up and present it as facts.

lmao, dude ask Josh from blackcoin foundation, ask Jabulon ask anyone who was there in the early days. I didnt even think it was true until i heard it confirmed a couple months ago. But it simple is true. Blackhandgroup had more than 50% of BC in the early days.

[dzimbeck]

This this a complete assumtion. 100% incorrect buddy. I'm one of the only devs in the world to be this transparent. I went above and beyond, just not on this thread. Read this and eat your own words... http://www.reddit.com/r/BitBay/comments/2p90g5/official_statement/


Also, dont defend barrabas, read a few posts back, he is a Bob profile. barrabas would also say things that only Bob knew from a private phone convo.

As far as distribution is concernded did you know that someone probably currently holds roughly 20% of BC? (blackwavelabs)
Did you know that when BC started someone held about 75% of it? (blackhandgroup)
Distribution of coins is never going to be even if anything Bay is distributed no differently than any other coin.

While I certainly would not agree that "Bay is distributed no differently than any other coin", I do appreciate your post on reddit - it clears up some things from your side.  I didn't bother to go through the rest of the addresses, but I presume there are 10-11 with ~8M BAY in each?... so that's the 90M you refer to in this post:

OK we will catch Bob in the first lie. I have roughly 90 million BitBay. And I can prove it with addresses. I have never sold a single one. They were bought for me. So again nice try.

You also received BTC from the ICO (as you should have - I'm not disputing that one bit)... in fact, you should have gotten a whole lot more, since they leveraged your name/reputation/software... basically your everything.  What you got was no where close to covering what you will have to defend forever likely.

However, one point still seems to elude you (or at least eludes me since you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary):

Where did those BAY come from? They were bought during the ICO, correct?  They were purchased by 'the team' (regardless of which specific individuals we're referring to) correct?  So did any of those people receive so much as a single BTC from the ICO proceeds?  As an investor, particularly one that was very vocal in support of you until the truth came out - this is the one question that you have not now, nor seemingly will ever answer clearly.

If any of the team paid BTC into the ICO and received BTC back again... then they got free BAY - which is the same as a premine (and perfectly acceptable if disclosed).  As importantly, since that artificially inflated the ICO, because they weren't purchased by new hands - coins that should have been burned, were in fact simply kept by the team.  This deflated the value of investor-held BAY, but did not deflate the value of your own - how could it, since it was free?

I'm well aware of the history of BC as I was there from day 0 mining it and buying it... what happened with BC was a shame, but until I see conclusive proof that rat4 was a primary player in it - it's not the same thing as this is.  If you have proof that the 'blackhand' group worked with rat4 directly and that he was paid BC/BTC then you need to publish - but until then, I will continue to believe that he was 100% innocent of that, and the rest was simply market manipulation from a group who picked the right coin at the right time to make the PnD of all time happen. (Or more accurately the DnPnD of all time).  

...But this isn't about BC - BC wasn't an ICO, Pavel didn't get free BC from buying BC and then getting his BTC back.  As far as Blackwave Labs is concerned... so?? Just like everyone else (other than you, Steven, Lin, and Bob's group in the case of BAY) they bought their BC on the open market, for current market prices, and they didn't get to keep the BTC they bought it with!  I'm perfectly fine with their BC, just as I'm perfectly fine with your BC - because in both cases they're the same as my BC.

What is different is that my BAY was never (even from day 1) the same as your BAY.

While I appreciate your transparency now, and I certainly hope your development is successful - because we do really need these markets - you seem to consistently play the martyr on this.  If you had been  even 25% transparent (in the beginning) you wouldn't have to be any more transparent now.  It's not the ones that got scammed fault that you're the one being suspected here!  It would be a little gratifying to hear you represent a little more humility and acceptance of that fact - YOU vouched for a scam, and now you present the attitude that the only one that is the victim was YOU.  

WTF? SMH.  

Let me distill that for you to two honest scenarios:
1) If the Bitbay team had received only BTC from the ICO and no BAY at all - then you could have bought as much BAY as you felt was reasonable after the markets opened.  In fact, that would only have meant price-support and shown confidence in the long-term prospects of the coin.  Likely would have meant that many BAY would be destroyed, but that also would help the price and confidence.

2) Disclosed up front that there would be a premine (you wouldn't have to say how it would be split, just that there was one) of ~40%, then gotten those coins for free and held the ICO for only the remaining 600M BAY... and burned the unsold coins at the end.  You would likely have sold far fewer BAY during the ICO, but for those that still felt it was an acceptable risk... they would stand to hold a larger percentage after the destruction of the unsold amount (and so would you).

Neither of these things happened... correct?

OK first of all, I dont believe for a single second rat4 knew about blackhand. Not even Josh believed it. He found out later The same way I did.

In fact, maybe that is the perfect analogy. Nobody believed in blackhandgroup, nobody believed IE and barrabas were related, nobody believed there was a plan to sabotage BC. But there was! I had no clue how many enemies I had before this project. This project was set up by some people who clearly wanted me out of crypto. I'm not playing martyr, I can prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. Their own group leaked it to me.

Maybe at some point i will have to leave crypto. At a bare minimum I can honor my current obligations.

When i was offered 10% of Bay by Steven, I thought they were buying it with their BTC. Only when the ICO started did I realize that wasnt the case.
My reluctance to expose it earlier (and by the way, I was the one to expose the entire scandal)... my reluctance was that they would do something like this. Anything that I discovered in the ICO phase would damage investors. So to be honest, I was trying to protect everyone involved including investors. I broke my silence because Bob was selling his Bay and provoking me with schill accounts.

The reason i was in a rush to get pegging started was to protect investors. And hell no I didnt want free Bay. I would rather burn my goddamn bay(although what use is it now? Bounties?). Why do you think i didnt sell any?? I could have tried to stop the ICO in the funding phase but that still would have impacted everyones reputation in the same. (although i do agree with you here, I should have done it the second i noticed it) It upsets me that 4 other people just made a bunch of BTC on my  name. It was exactly what I didnt want.

At least  Steven is willling to fund the joint account and work on the project with me from here. (So he says) and at least I can fulfill my obligation to do exactly what I said I was going to do.

But never in a million years did I think the entire project was a premeditated plan by my enemies to interfere with Halo. (in some ways, its better that i realize how important Halo is now then later)

The major mistake I made was not interfering with the financial end of it. But considering BTER was holding on to funds, I thought it would be OK. Kind of ironic I didnt use BitHalo to eliminate middle men. Looks like I should have been using my own tool.

Better late than never. I use BitHalo for everything now. I just set up a joint BitHalo account with Steven and that number was disclosed in the thread on reddit.

[digicidal]

...
When i was offered 10% of Bay by Steven, I thought they were buying it with their BTC. Only when the ICO started did I realize that wasnt the case.
My reluctance to expose it earlier (and by the way, I was the one to expose the entire scandal)... my reluctance was that they would do something like this. Anything that I discovered in the ICO phase would damage investors. So to be honest, I was trying to protect everyone involved including investors. I broke my silence because Bob was selling his Bay and provoking me with schill accounts.
...

So you believed they were going to buy that BAY with BTC completely separate from the BTC received during the ICO?  And you believed they were going to buy it after the ICO was completed and unsold coins destroyed, from the open market?

See that's the problem I keep coming back to, because you continue to say that I and other investors were being protected by you - but if Steven offered you BAY at any time prior to or during the ICO... then you were, in fact, defrauding the investors.  I don't mean you wanted to defraud them, or that you designed things to defraud them - simply that your actions (at a minimum) are the very catalyst, which allowed the others to succeed in that fraud!

You keep saying that you were trying to protect the investors, but your decision created the only situation which virtually guaranteed that the investors would be the only ones that lost in the deal.  Not Bob or Ryan, not Steven, not Lin, not you - just everyone else.  

I do not dispute that you were used.  I do not dispute that you had good intentions going in.  Unlike other notable critics, I do not dispute your abilities as a dev, nor the potential of both Halo itself and the BitBay concept as outlined.  In fact, that's exactly why I decided to throw a little BTC your way to support it - despite there being warning signs all over the place.

The problem however, is that you are still partnered with Steven - and he had to know about everything, or else he couldn't have offered you a single BAY in the first place!  (He could have offered you more BTC, and let you buy your own BAY when the markets opened... that would have been perfectly reasonable - and honest).

I do feel sorry for you - and I do hope for everyone's sake that you can make lemonade out of this unholy pile of crap... but I can only come up with two possibilities, even if I assume that you are 100% true to your word now (which is vastly different than your word prior to, during, and even after the ICO):

Possibility 1: Steven is brilliant (but crooked) and was 100% aware of everything from the beginning... thus he knew you were being played - and was fine with that.  Ironically, if he does indeed see BAY as a long term play and not simply a quick buck... then he might be the perfect guy to run a coin on the business side.  After all, he figured out the one way to get everything (including you) and even get rid of all of the other partners - while still keeping control of a majority of the proceeds!

Possibility 2: Steven is utterly retarded (but honest) and easily convinced into committing crimes by strangers, stabbing his friends in the back, and destroying his own business' long-term prospects in the process.  He's also completely clueless about markets, crypto currency, investing, sales, and everything else.  If this is the case, he is the very last person on the planet to which you should continue to tie yourself to, and the last person you want running the business side of anything worth more than a cup of coffee - let alone thousands of BTC.

However, maybe there's a possibility that I'm missing... but I can't come up with one.

Oh and at least you're using a multisig wallet for what's left... hopefully that will prevent both you and Steven from making any weird deals with unknown people again.  If only the investors could hold a third sig... maybe you should work on setting up a system where holders can vote for a community representative to hold a third sig.

[dzimbeck]

yeah digicidal, no way in hell would i ever intentionally let someone else make btc on my head. Thats irrational, stupid and crazy.

I felt protective not only of investors but everyone. After the ico, it was a natural reaction to defend the project, the investors, myself, and even the group  considering everything, i would ask how you would have handled it and if i was to explain to you every tiny detail you would see what im talkin about. Not everything was immediately aparrent all at once either(aka the paid fud). The worst case scenario kept becoming the case.

Of course, i knew during the funding of the ico, you can talk to me privately any time you want.

[djm34]

This this a complete assumtion. 100% incorrect buddy. I'm one of the only devs in the world to be this transparent. I went above and beyond, just not on this thread. Read this and eat your own words... http://www.reddit.com/r/BitBay/comments/2p90g5/official_statement/


Also, dont defend barrabas, read a few posts back, he is a Bob profile. barrabas would also say things that only Bob knew from a private phone convo.

As far as distribution is concernded did you know that someone probably currently holds roughly 20% of BC? (blackwavelabs)
Did you know that when BC started someone held about 75% of it? (blackhandgroup)
Distribution of coins is never going to be even if anything Bay is distributed no differently than any other coin.

While I certainly would not agree that "Bay is distributed no differently than any other coin", I do appreciate your post on reddit - it clears up some things from your side.  I didn't bother to go through the rest of the addresses, but I presume there are 10-11 with ~8M BAY in each?... so that's the 90M you refer to in this post:

OK we will catch Bob in the first lie. I have roughly 90 million BitBay. And I can prove it with addresses. I have never sold a single one. They were bought for me. So again nice try.

You also received BTC from the ICO (as you should have - I'm not disputing that one bit)... in fact, you should have gotten a whole lot more, since they leveraged your name/reputation/software... basically your everything.  What you got was no where close to covering what you will have to defend forever likely.

However, one point still seems to elude you (or at least eludes me since you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary):

Where did those BAY come from? They were bought during the ICO, correct?  They were purchased by 'the team' (regardless of which specific individuals we're referring to) correct?  So did any of those people receive so much as a single BTC from the ICO proceeds?  As an investor, particularly one that was very vocal in support of you until the truth came out - this is the one question that you have not now, nor seemingly will ever answer clearly.

If any of the team paid BTC into the ICO and received BTC back again... then they got free BAY - which is the same as a premine (and perfectly acceptable if disclosed).  As importantly, since that artificially inflated the ICO, because they weren't purchased by new hands - coins that should have been burned, were in fact simply kept by the team.  This deflated the value of investor-held BAY, but did not deflate the value of your own - how could it, since it was free?

I'm well aware of the history of BC as I was there from day 0 mining it and buying it... what happened with BC was a shame, but until I see conclusive proof that rat4 was a primary player in it - it's not the same thing as this is.  If you have proof that the 'blackhand' group worked with rat4 directly and that he was paid BC/BTC then you need to publish - but until then, I will continue to believe that he was 100% innocent of that, and the rest was simply market manipulation from a group who picked the right coin at the right time to make the PnD of all time happen. (Or more accurately the DnPnD of all time). 

...But this isn't about BC - BC wasn't an ICO, Pavel didn't get free BC from buying BC and then getting his BTC back.  As far as Blackwave Labs is concerned... so?? Just like everyone else (other than you, Steven, Lin, and Bob's group in the case of BAY) they bought their BC on the open market, for current market prices, and they didn't get to keep the BTC they bought it with!  I'm perfectly fine with their BC, just as I'm perfectly fine with your BC - because in both cases they're the same as my BC.

What is different is that my BAY was never (even from day 1) the same as your BAY.

While I appreciate your transparency now, and I certainly hope your development is successful - because we do really need these markets - you seem to consistently play the martyr on this.  If you had been  even 25% transparent (in the beginning) you wouldn't have to be any more transparent now.  It's not the ones that got scammed fault that you're the one being suspected here!  It would be a little gratifying to hear you represent a little more humility and acceptance of that fact - YOU vouched for a scam, and now you present the attitude that the only one that is the victim was YOU. 

WTF? SMH. 

Let me distill that for you to two honest scenarios:
1) If the Bitbay team had received only BTC from the ICO and no BAY at all - then you could have bought as much BAY as you felt was reasonable after the markets opened.  In fact, that would only have meant price-support and shown confidence in the long-term prospects of the coin.  Likely would have meant that many BAY would be destroyed, but that also would help the price and confidence.

2) Disclosed up front that there would be a premine (you wouldn't have to say how it would be split, just that there was one) of ~40%, then gotten those coins for free and held the ICO for only the remaining 600M BAY... and burned the unsold coins at the end.  You would likely have sold far fewer BAY during the ICO, but for those that still felt it was an acceptable risk... they would stand to hold a larger percentage after the destruction of the unsold amount (and so would you).

Neither of these things happened... correct?

OK first of all, I dont believe for a single second rat4 knew about blackhand. Not even Josh believed it. He found out later The same way I did.

In fact, maybe that is the perfect analogy. Nobody believed in blackhandgroup, nobody believed IE and barrabas were related, nobody believed there was a plan to sabotage BC. But there was! I had no clue how many enemies I had before this project. This project was set up by some people who clearly wanted me out of crypto. I'm not playing martyr, I can prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. Their own group leaked it to me.

Maybe at some point i will have to leave crypto. At a bare minimum I can honor my current obligations.

When i was offered 10% of Bay by Steven, I thought they were buying it with their BTC. Only when the ICO started did I realize that wasnt the case.
My reluctance to expose it earlier (and by the way, I was the one to expose the entire scandal)... my reluctance was that they would do something like this. Anything that I discovered in the ICO phase would damage investors. So to be honest, I was trying to protect everyone involved including investors. I broke my silence because Bob was selling his Bay and provoking me with schill accounts.

The fact that you expose the scam  when the coin was still valuable, makes you a scammer (again). Basically doing this you destroy the value of the coin allowing your inner circle (whomever they are) to buy cheap coin.
And this comedy we keep seeing on other threads with bobsurplus attacks/confessions looks as much orchestrated as the rest to destroy coin value and allowing buying cheap coin while you are reassuring investor that you will continue development without them.

Lets call this scam phase 2, assuming it works, coin will regain value and allow a second dump.
Hence for me this coin is still an active scam seeking for a second pay-out.
if it wasn't the case, you would have abandoned the coin and re-centered on your bithalo.

[unusualfacts30]

...
When i was offered 10% of Bay by Steven, I thought they were buying it with their BTC. Only when the ICO started did I realize that wasnt the case.
My reluctance to expose it earlier (and by the way, I was the one to expose the entire scandal)... my reluctance was that they would do something like this. Anything that I discovered in the ICO phase would damage investors. So to be honest, I was trying to protect everyone involved including investors. I broke my silence because Bob was selling his Bay and provoking me with schill accounts.
...

So you believed they were going to buy that BAY with BTC completely separate from the BTC received during the ICO?  And you believed they were going to buy it after the ICO was completed and unsold coins destroyed, from the open market?

See that's the problem I keep coming back to, because you continue to say that I and other investors were being protected by you - but if Steven offered you BAY at any time prior to or during the ICO... then you were, in fact, defrauding the investors.  I don't mean you wanted to defraud them, or that you designed things to defraud them - simply that your actions (at a minimum) are the very catalyst, which allowed the others to succeed in that fraud!

You keep saying that you were trying to protect the investors, but your decision created the only situation which virtually guaranteed that the investors would be the only ones that lost in the deal.  Not Bob or Ryan, not Steven, not Lin, not you - just everyone else.  

I do not dispute that you were used.  I do not dispute that you had good intentions going in.  Unlike other notable critics, I do not dispute your abilities as a dev, nor the potential of both Halo itself and the BitBay concept as outlined.  In fact, that's exactly why I decided to throw a little BTC your way to support it - despite there being warning signs all over the place.

The problem however, is that you are still partnered with Steven - and he had to know about everything, or else he couldn't have offered you a single BAY in the first place!  (He could have offered you more BTC, and let you buy your own BAY when the markets opened... that would have been perfectly reasonable - and honest).

I do feel sorry for you - and I do hope for everyone's sake that you can make lemonade out of this unholy pile of crap... but I can only come up with two possibilities, even if I assume that you are 100% true to your word now (which is vastly different than your word prior to, during, and even after the ICO):

Possibility 1: Steven is brilliant (but crooked) and was 100% aware of everything from the beginning... thus he knew you were being played - and was fine with that.  Ironically, if he does indeed see BAY as a long term play and not simply a quick buck... then he might be the perfect guy to run a coin on the business side.  After all, he figured out the one way to get everything (including you) and even get rid of all of the other partners - while still keeping control of a majority of the proceeds!

Possibility 2: Steven is utterly retarded (but honest) and easily convinced into committing crimes by strangers, stabbing his friends in the back, and destroying his own business' long-term prospects in the process.  He's also completely clueless about markets, crypto currency, investing, sales, and everything else.  If this is the case, he is the very last person on the planet to which you should continue to tie yourself to, and the last person you want running the business side of anything worth more than a cup of coffee - let alone thousands of BTC.

However, maybe there's a possibility that I'm missing... but I can't come up with one.

Oh and at least you're using a multisig wallet for what's left... hopefully that will prevent both you and Steven from making any weird deals with unknown people again.  If only the investors could hold a third sig... maybe you should work on setting up a system where holders can vote for a community representative to hold a third sig.

Reputation>Money

If he had outlined everything before it had happened..they would kick him out of the team and as a result investors would lose money and thread would turn into fudstorm which is FAR worse than what is happening right now. Everyone would start complaining how they had faith in him and how he betrayed them regardless of him being truthful and honest.

I don't think you understand this but there WAS no way for him to save himself from the shitstorm. In your perspective one thing would be better than other thing but that's far from the truth. Yes, you would be happy but how about other investors? They would start whining about how they lost money. Bob & Gecko were threatening him and his family and asked him not to release any info. He has mentioned lot of times that he wanted to release info but they kept threatening him. It sounds more like he was stuck with something he didn't want to be part of.

You're right that he should've refused the offer of Free Bay but man gotta pay his bills. He has been working for free for a very very long time. Don't tell me if you were him you would refuse that offer if they told you that no one would be harmed by this.

If I came to you and told you that we're creating this decentrilized marketplace for future and we're offering you 30 BTC upfront + Free Bay and we guarantee that no one would be harmed by this. What would you do?

You can't be upset because he got little greedy and accepted those BTC+Bay(which he hasn't sold) from them. lol

[dzimbeck]

in fact unusual facts, i wasnt even greedy at all. I just accepted the offer because it was above the threshhold of what i wanted for a license. And the guy fudding above you of course is ignoring the fact that i never sold baycoins.

Bob and Ryan would ask questions like "does money motivate you" and i would say "no, i only want to make good tech, help the people etc"

Remember, the reason i even took the deal at all was because i was excited to have support for my projects. (duh)

No dev in their right mind would have turned it down after going through what i went through to get there. They would have been in the devils mouth the same way i am now.

[djm34]

...
When i was offered 10% of Bay by Steven, I thought they were buying it with their BTC. Only when the ICO started did I realize that wasnt the case.
My reluctance to expose it earlier (and by the way, I was the one to expose the entire scandal)... my reluctance was that they would do something like this. Anything that I discovered in the ICO phase would damage investors. So to be honest, I was trying to protect everyone involved including investors. I broke my silence because Bob was selling his Bay and provoking me with schill accounts.
...

So you believed they were going to buy that BAY with BTC completely separate from the BTC received during the ICO?  And you believed they were going to buy it after the ICO was completed and unsold coins destroyed, from the open market?

See that's the problem I keep coming back to, because you continue to say that I and other investors were being protected by you - but if Steven offered you BAY at any time prior to or during the ICO... then you were, in fact, defrauding the investors.  I don't mean you wanted to defraud them, or that you designed things to defraud them - simply that your actions (at a minimum) are the very catalyst, which allowed the others to succeed in that fraud!

You keep saying that you were trying to protect the investors, but your decision created the only situation which virtually guaranteed that the investors would be the only ones that lost in the deal.  Not Bob or Ryan, not Steven, not Lin, not you - just everyone else. 

I do not dispute that you were used.  I do not dispute that you had good intentions going in.  Unlike other notable critics, I do not dispute your abilities as a dev, nor the potential of both Halo itself and the BitBay concept as outlined.  In fact, that's exactly why I decided to throw a little BTC your way to support it - despite there being warning signs all over the place.

The problem however, is that you are still partnered with Steven - and he had to know about everything, or else he couldn't have offered you a single BAY in the first place!  (He could have offered you more BTC, and let you buy your own BAY when the markets opened... that would have been perfectly reasonable - and honest).

I do feel sorry for you - and I do hope for everyone's sake that you can make lemonade out of this unholy pile of crap... but I can only come up with two possibilities, even if I assume that you are 100% true to your word now (which is vastly different than your word prior to, during, and even after the ICO):

Possibility 1: Steven is brilliant (but crooked) and was 100% aware of everything from the beginning... thus he knew you were being played - and was fine with that.  Ironically, if he does indeed see BAY as a long term play and not simply a quick buck... then he might be the perfect guy to run a coin on the business side.  After all, he figured out the one way to get everything (including you) and even get rid of all of the other partners - while still keeping control of a majority of the proceeds!

Possibility 2: Steven is utterly retarded (but honest) and easily convinced into committing crimes by strangers, stabbing his friends in the back, and destroying his own business' long-term prospects in the process.  He's also completely clueless about markets, crypto currency, investing, sales, and everything else.  If this is the case, he is the very last person on the planet to which you should continue to tie yourself to, and the last person you want running the business side of anything worth more than a cup of coffee - let alone thousands of BTC.

However, maybe there's a possibility that I'm missing... but I can't come up with one.

Oh and at least you're using a multisig wallet for what's left... hopefully that will prevent both you and Steven from making any weird deals with unknown people again.  If only the investors could hold a third sig... maybe you should work on setting up a system where holders can vote for a community representative to hold a third sig.

Reputation>Money

If he had outlined everything before it had happened..they would kick him out of the team and as a result investors would lose money and thread would turn into fudstorm which is FAR worse than what is happening right now. Everyone would start complaining how they had faith in him and how he betrayed them regardless of him being truthful and honest.

I don't think you understand this but there WAS no way for him to save himself from the shitstorm. In your perspective one thing would be better than other thing but that's far from the truth. Yes, you would be happy but how about other investors? They would start whining about how they lost money. Bob & Gecko were threatening him and his family and asked him not to release any info. He has mentioned lot of times that he wanted to release info but they kept threatening him. It sounds more like he was stuck with something he didn't want to be part of.

You're right that he should've refused the offer of Free Bay but man gotta pay his bills.

I love bagholder gullibility, you have way too much coins to see clearly how screwed you are   That's why all this scam can succeed so easily.

Bob & Gecko threatening him ans his family   Good one, are you competing for the best story telling with Gecko ?
The guy lives in Cambodia (nice to evade prosecution no matter what...) while the 2 other idiots are in Canada ( )

The way to save himself from the shit storm was to walk away from the coin period.
Not doing this doesn't mean he wants to protect the investors, it just means he wants to scam them again.

[unusualfacts30]

...
When i was offered 10% of Bay by Steven, I thought they were buying it with their BTC. Only when the ICO started did I realize that wasnt the case.
My reluctance to expose it earlier (and by the way, I was the one to expose the entire scandal)... my reluctance was that they would do something like this. Anything that I discovered in the ICO phase would damage investors. So to be honest, I was trying to protect everyone involved including investors. I broke my silence because Bob was selling his Bay and provoking me with schill accounts.
...

So you believed they were going to buy that BAY with BTC completely separate from the BTC received during the ICO?  And you believed they were going to buy it after the ICO was completed and unsold coins destroyed, from the open market?

See that's the problem I keep coming back to, because you continue to say that I and other investors were being protected by you - but if Steven offered you BAY at any time prior to or during the ICO... then you were, in fact, defrauding the investors.  I don't mean you wanted to defraud them, or that you designed things to defraud them - simply that your actions (at a minimum) are the very catalyst, which allowed the others to succeed in that fraud!

You keep saying that you were trying to protect the investors, but your decision created the only situation which virtually guaranteed that the investors would be the only ones that lost in the deal.  Not Bob or Ryan, not Steven, not Lin, not you - just everyone else.  

I do not dispute that you were used.  I do not dispute that you had good intentions going in.  Unlike other notable critics, I do not dispute your abilities as a dev, nor the potential of both Halo itself and the BitBay concept as outlined.  In fact, that's exactly why I decided to throw a little BTC your way to support it - despite there being warning signs all over the place.

The problem however, is that you are still partnered with Steven - and he had to know about everything, or else he couldn't have offered you a single BAY in the first place!  (He could have offered you more BTC, and let you buy your own BAY when the markets opened... that would have been perfectly reasonable - and honest).

I do feel sorry for you - and I do hope for everyone's sake that you can make lemonade out of this unholy pile of crap... but I can only come up with two possibilities, even if I assume that you are 100% true to your word now (which is vastly different than your word prior to, during, and even after the ICO):

Possibility 1: Steven is brilliant (but crooked) and was 100% aware of everything from the beginning... thus he knew you were being played - and was fine with that.  Ironically, if he does indeed see BAY as a long term play and not simply a quick buck... then he might be the perfect guy to run a coin on the business side.  After all, he figured out the one way to get everything (including you) and even get rid of all of the other partners - while still keeping control of a majority of the proceeds!

Possibility 2: Steven is utterly retarded (but honest) and easily convinced into committing crimes by strangers, stabbing his friends in the back, and destroying his own business' long-term prospects in the process.  He's also completely clueless about markets, crypto currency, investing, sales, and everything else.  If this is the case, he is the very last person on the planet to which you should continue to tie yourself to, and the last person you want running the business side of anything worth more than a cup of coffee - let alone thousands of BTC.

However, maybe there's a possibility that I'm missing... but I can't come up with one.

Oh and at least you're using a multisig wallet for what's left... hopefully that will prevent both you and Steven from making any weird deals with unknown people again.  If only the investors could hold a third sig... maybe you should work on setting up a system where holders can vote for a community representative to hold a third sig.

Reputation>Money

If he had outlined everything before it had happened..they would kick him out of the team and as a result investors would lose money and thread would turn into fudstorm which is FAR worse than what is happening right now. Everyone would start complaining how they had faith in him and how he betrayed them regardless of him being truthful and honest.

I don't think you understand this but there WAS no way for him to save himself from the shitstorm. In your perspective one thing would be better than other thing but that's far from the truth. Yes, you would be happy but how about other investors? They would start whining about how they lost money. Bob & Gecko were threatening him and his family and asked him not to release any info. He has mentioned lot of times that he wanted to release info but they kept threatening him. It sounds more like he was stuck with something he didn't want to be part of.

You're right that he should've refused the offer of Free Bay but man gotta pay his bills.

I love bagholder gullibility, you have way too much coins to see clearly how screwed you are   That's why all this scam can succeed so easily.

Bob & Gecko threatening him ans his family   Good one, are you competing for the best story telling with Gecko ?
The guy lives in Cambodia (nice to evade prosecution no matter what...) while the 2 other idiots are in Canada ( )

The way to save himself from the shit storm was to walk away from the coin period.
Not doing this doesn't mean he wants to protect the investors, it just means he wants to scam them again.

How do you walk away from shit after stepping on it? It'll get stuck to your shoe and go with you everywhere you go. He is just trying to clean it.

As far as me being a bag holder. He has my full permission to do whatever is necessary to bring those clowns behind the bar for threatening his family. In fact I have 20 BTC+ and I could careless about them if he chose to go that route. Besides all this shitstorm he is still here working on the project when he can just walk away and let crypto die on its own but he chose not to. In fact if I was him I would walk away and bring new coin on monthly basis to scam all of you stupid fcks.

You have no fcking clue about how easy it is to scam people in this shit and if he wanted to scam he could take his profit from Bay and leave it...then come back tomorrow with new name and new coin...scam again and he could do it for as long as he wanted but he chose to stay here to fight for his reputation and investors.

[Oops]

in fact unusual facts, i wasnt even greedy at all. I just accepted the offer because it was above the threshhold of what i wanted for a license. And the guy fudding above you of course is ignoring the fact that i never sold baycoins.

Bob and Ryan would ask questions like "does money motivate you" and i would say "no, i only want to make good tech, help the people etc"

Remember, the reason i even took the deal at all was because i was excited to have support for my projects. (duh)

No dev in their right mind would have turned it down after going through what i went through to get there. They would have been in the devils mouth the same way i am now.

Bullshit! You where not motivated by money. You took the money to pay off dear old mums debts and your own and funding for Blackhalo. It's well know fact and you even admitted as much. Blackhalo wasn't getting money from Blackcoin or Bitcoin so you pretty much sold it to Bit Bay.

[mr_random]

Did you know that when BC started someone held about 75% of it? (blackhandgroup)

Don't make shit up and present it as facts.

lmao, dude ask Josh from blackcoin foundation, ask Jabulon ask anyone who was there in the early days. I didnt even think it was true until i heard it confirmed a couple months ago. But it simple is true. Blackhandgroup had more than 50% of BC in the early days.

Weak argument. Prove it or stfu. You're already backtracking and changing it from 75% to 50%.

I'm a BC supporter and have been defending you even though I'm not involved in Bitbay... and now I read you passing off bullshit about BC as facts. As someone who has had people doing that to YOU a LOT recently, (passing off bullshit as facts) you should be more careful what you say.

No proof = no facts.

[Oops]

Speaking of Proof. I've seen chat rolls where Zimbeck said "if he was in Mexico he would send people out" to hurt a guy from Bobs crew. That sounds like he started with that sort of thing 1st. Show the proof David Zimbeck where these guys threatened you during the ICO and include the part where you threatened 1st.

[djm34]

Speaking of Proof. I've seen chat rolls where Zimbeck said "if he was in Mexico he would send people out" to hurt a guy from Bobs crew. That sounds like he started with that sort of thing 1st. Show the proof David Zimbeck where these guys threatened you during the ICO and include the part where you threatened 1st.

nerd fight might get as popular as girl fight  
(don't forget to film the event... if it happens)

[djm34]

...
When i was offered 10% of Bay by Steven, I thought they were buying it with their BTC. Only when the ICO started did I realize that wasnt the case.
My reluctance to expose it earlier (and by the way, I was the one to expose the entire scandal)... my reluctance was that they would do something like this. Anything that I discovered in the ICO phase would damage investors. So to be honest, I was trying to protect everyone involved including investors. I broke my silence because Bob was selling his Bay and provoking me with schill accounts.
...

So you believed they were going to buy that BAY with BTC completely separate from the BTC received during the ICO?  And you believed they were going to buy it after the ICO was completed and unsold coins destroyed, from the open market?

See that's the problem I keep coming back to, because you continue to say that I and other investors were being protected by you - but if Steven offered you BAY at any time prior to or during the ICO... then you were, in fact, defrauding the investors.  I don't mean you wanted to defraud them, or that you designed things to defraud them - simply that your actions (at a minimum) are the very catalyst, which allowed the others to succeed in that fraud!

You keep saying that you were trying to protect the investors, but your decision created the only situation which virtually guaranteed that the investors would be the only ones that lost in the deal.  Not Bob or Ryan, not Steven, not Lin, not you - just everyone else.  

I do not dispute that you were used.  I do not dispute that you had good intentions going in.  Unlike other notable critics, I do not dispute your abilities as a dev, nor the potential of both Halo itself and the BitBay concept as outlined.  In fact, that's exactly why I decided to throw a little BTC your way to support it - despite there being warning signs all over the place.

The problem however, is that you are still partnered with Steven - and he had to know about everything, or else he couldn't have offered you a single BAY in the first place!  (He could have offered you more BTC, and let you buy your own BAY when the markets opened... that would have been perfectly reasonable - and honest).

I do feel sorry for you - and I do hope for everyone's sake that you can make lemonade out of this unholy pile of crap... but I can only come up with two possibilities, even if I assume that you are 100% true to your word now (which is vastly different than your word prior to, during, and even after the ICO):

Possibility 1: Steven is brilliant (but crooked) and was 100% aware of everything from the beginning... thus he knew you were being played - and was fine with that.  Ironically, if he does indeed see BAY as a long term play and not simply a quick buck... then he might be the perfect guy to run a coin on the business side.  After all, he figured out the one way to get everything (including you) and even get rid of all of the other partners - while still keeping control of a majority of the proceeds!

Possibility 2: Steven is utterly retarded (but honest) and easily convinced into committing crimes by strangers, stabbing his friends in the back, and destroying his own business' long-term prospects in the process.  He's also completely clueless about markets, crypto currency, investing, sales, and everything else.  If this is the case, he is the very last person on the planet to which you should continue to tie yourself to, and the last person you want running the business side of anything worth more than a cup of coffee - let alone thousands of BTC.

However, maybe there's a possibility that I'm missing... but I can't come up with one.

Oh and at least you're using a multisig wallet for what's left... hopefully that will prevent both you and Steven from making any weird deals with unknown people again.  If only the investors could hold a third sig... maybe you should work on setting up a system where holders can vote for a community representative to hold a third sig.

Reputation>Money

If he had outlined everything before it had happened..they would kick him out of the team and as a result investors would lose money and thread would turn into fudstorm which is FAR worse than what is happening right now. Everyone would start complaining how they had faith in him and how he betrayed them regardless of him being truthful and honest.

I don't think you understand this but there WAS no way for him to save himself from the shitstorm. In your perspective one thing would be better than other thing but that's far from the truth. Yes, you would be happy but how about other investors? They would start whining about how they lost money. Bob & Gecko were threatening him and his family and asked him not to release any info. He has mentioned lot of times that he wanted to release info but they kept threatening him. It sounds more like he was stuck with something he didn't want to be part of.

You're right that he should've refused the offer of Free Bay but man gotta pay his bills.

I love bagholder gullibility, you have way too much coins to see clearly how screwed you are   That's why all this scam can succeed so easily.

Bob & Gecko threatening him ans his family   Good one, are you competing for the best story telling with Gecko ?
The guy lives in Cambodia (nice to evade prosecution no matter what...) while the 2 other idiots are in Canada ( )

The way to save himself from the shit storm was to walk away from the coin period.
Not doing this doesn't mean he wants to protect the investors, it just means he wants to scam them again.

How do you walk away from shit after stepping on it? It'll get stuck to your shoe and go with you everywhere you go. He is just trying to clean it.

As far as me being a bag holder. He has my full permission to do whatever is necessary to bring those clowns behind the bar for threatening his family. In fact I have 20 BTC+ and I could careless about them if he chose to go that route. Besides all this shitstorm he is still here working on the project when he can just walk away and let crypto die on its own but he chose not to. In fact if I was him I would walk away and bring new coin on monthly basis to scam all of you stupid fcks.

You have no fcking clue about how easy it is to scam people in this shit and if he wanted to scam he could take his profit from Bay and leave it...then come back tomorrow with new name and new coin...scam again and he could do it for as long as he wanted but he chose to stay here to fight for his reputation and investors.

lol, I know it is easy to scam people, because you still believe in the coin no matter what  

The easiest way to walk away would have been to not walk in... Every project which have put large IPO were all scams (not some, just all of them...)
So if you walk in that sort of project, you know very well it will be a scam and you will be part of the scamming team.

may-be he got cold feet at some point, I don't know, but he can't say he didn't know, he always knew it was the scam. He took part of it, in full knowledge of the situation, let you being scammed in full knownledge of the situation and now tries to make you believe that things has changed, knowing it is a big lie again and he and others (ex-)team still have large amount of the coin, they will dump on you or any future "investor" going in.

So keeping his involvement in the coin, will most likely increased the amount of btc scammed from people stupid enough to believe him once again.
The project is entirely doomed no matter what he does or does not because of the huge amount of coin they still own and the fact the team split makes it even more dangerous for the investor.

So keeping the project alive will just hurt more people (not him personally  ), so even if walking away isn't easy it would be better for everyone that he walk away, as well as for you especially if you plan to put more btc in it, because they will just disappear.

Actually the only way to move on, would be to make a new coin forgetting completely about the old one (but obviously you won't like the idea  ) which is just a giant trap with too many people waiting to dump.

Sorry but you are screwed as well, and your only way to get out is to convince "investor" so you can dump on them too...
because of all that, that project has absolutely no future...

[dzimbeck]

Did you know that when BC started someone held about 75% of it? (blackhandgroup)

Don't make shit up and present it as facts.

lmao, dude ask Josh from blackcoin foundation, ask Jabulon ask anyone who was there in the early days. I didnt even think it was true until i heard it confirmed a couple months ago. But it simple is true. Blackhandgroup had more than 50% of BC in the early days.

Weak argument. Prove it or stfu. You're already backtracking and changing it from 75% to 50%.

I'm a BC supporter and have been defending you even though I'm not involved in Bitbay... and now I read you passing off bullshit about BC as facts. As someone who has had people doing that to YOU a LOT recently, (passing off bullshit as facts) you should be more careful what you say.

No proof = no facts.

If you want a hard number on that go ask Josh or other BC members. I know it was more than 50%, I'm pretty sure it was like up to 75%. Its old news, i dont care about it I was simply making an analogy. In a sense though, you are correct, and it is currently irrelevant. Regardless, it did happen and everyone in BC knows about it.

[dzimbeck]

djm34, you are saying the only way out would have been to turn down the offer. Well yeah easier said then done when they are telling you whatever to get you in, rushing it, etc etc etc.

Its mathematically illogical to accept an offer like that knowing they will try to pocket more btc of your tech.

For example Bobs ran away with 500 btc + 191(Bob) + 191(Ryan) + whatever they sold in Bay (at least 200 BTC lets say) + whatever they extorted from steven.

So yeah why would i do that, not sell a single baycoin, for a lousy license?! Totally illogical. Many times i asked them that i didnt want anyone profiting off my name it was my primary concern by far. I went into the deal cautiously because there was 4 others and felt that bter holding on to funds should be secure. Of course that assumption was incorrect.

Yeah so, like was said, you step into the garbage, and then are forced to clean up someone elses mess.

[toknormal]

::::: Bitcoin 4 hr MACD crossing to upside. ::::::