Crestington
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December 29, 2014, 12:56:39 AM |
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This is quite interesting, they are talking about both BitCoin AND the early elements of Proof of Stake.
eddie8:35 PM
I don't think you need provable cost. You need provable scarcity. And if your scheme has a byzantine registry, you're there already - you don't even need a method for generating and allocating random numbers. If there is a registry that establishes ownership of a number by a participant, then there must be a means of identifying participants - and that's all you need. Participants own their own identity.
A participant's ID becomes a coin, which they can trade as usual. Anyone who owns a coin can revoke it and issue new coins as change - the new coins are the old coin with bitstrings appended, such that the appended bitstrings completely partition the subspace. The value of any coin is then simply 1/(2^N) where N is the length of the coin (not counting the original issuer ID). For example, you could split the coin X into the coins X00, X010, X011, X10, X11, creating three +2-bit coins and two +3-bit coins. All this gets tracked in the registry.
This scheme has a (mostly) fixed amount of money that can be split into arbitrarily small denominations (and pooled and tranched into arbitrary denominations of any size). It's only mostly fixed, though - the amount of money is equal to the number of participants, and grows as the participant pool grows. Thus, the basic monetary unit is the lifetime of a person.
A similar scheme could be that each participant can issue new coins whenever they want; each coin would have a serial number, and serial number + issuer would be globally unique. Coins could still be split as before; the splitting digits would be separate from the serial number and issuer identifier. Again, the registry provides proof of scarcity. The value of coins would be measured in participant-seconds: the number of seconds between the coin's registration timestamp and the registration timestamp of the immediately prior registered coin from the same issuer. If I issued one coin a day each would be worth one person-day; if I issued two coins a day each would be worth half a person-day (on average, that is; each would be worth a specific, exact amount depending on exactly when they were issued). Now the monetary base grows both with the population and over time, so that on day 10,001 of the scheme there's .01% monetary growth from the day before. This is similar to your idea of pooling and tranching bitgold into standard-sized time-based chunks. Also, now the basic monetary unit is one day of a person's lifetime (or one second, or one year, etc.) instead of a person's entire lifetime.
With bitgold, the basic monetary unit is the cpu instruction cycle. To prevent ever-cheaper cpu cycles from causing inflation, your pooling idea then bundles cpu cycles into weeks (or days, or seconds), which become the new basic monetary unit. I think the person-second is a better fundamental unit, but if you prefer just plain seconds you can still get them without having to waste cpu cycles solving puzzles: use my person-second scheme, but stipulate that a coin's value is proportionate to the number of registered participants at the time of the coin's timestamp. In other words, my half-a-person-day coin would be worth 1/28th of a day if there were fourteen participants in the registry on the day the coin was registered. Now the monetary base grows strictly by time (adding equal amounts every time period), and the growth is distributed evenly among all participants.
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The Bitcoin network protocol was designed to be extremely flexible. It can be used to create timed transactions, escrow transactions, multi-signature transactions, etc. The current features of the client only hint at what will be possible in the future.
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Gleb Gamow
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December 29, 2014, 07:25:58 AM |
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There have been over the years several plans and attempts to develop very fined grained markets online. Wouldn't it be funny if Satoshi Nakamoto turned out to be the real McCoy? http://www.oreilly.com/pub/au/115 |
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Gleb Gamow
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December 29, 2014, 02:53:54 PM |
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^ just think if "eddie" turned out to be McCoy.....he normally just posted "anonymous" until Nick would piss him off about MoJo and then he would use his true name....Nick never posted anything after the "eddie" post.....so maybe "eddie" is McCoy....and since Szabo never provoked him, he didn't reveal his true name. Note: the "anonymous" comments turn out to be Jim McCoy once Szabo makes him mad enough to admit who he is: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2007/06/nanobarter.html?m=1Update: I don't think McCoy is Satoshi, but he may be "eddie" from the "BitGold-Markets" comment section.(Although it looks like Byrne's writing style) http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2008/04/bit-gold-markets.html?m=1Thanks, frickface  , now I have to read the DonutLab White Paper: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2005/HPL-2005-5.pdfEdit: I quit reading at Donutbot. Maybe somebody else can make heads or tails outta it, for it's outside my element (no pun intended). |
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Billbags
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Brainwashed this way
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December 29, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
Last edit: December 29, 2014, 06:51:44 PM by Billbags |
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^ Szabo worked at DigiCash also. So that means Zooko and Szabo were co-workers. I'll check the dates to see if they were employed at the same time.
Zooko wrote the Bitcoin client with Szabo's whitepaper and guidance. When their project got too close to the CIA they jumped ship and went low and let Gavin and a few other enthusiasts handle the assets. Now Szabo pretends it's raining (still uses the same language) and supports Ethereum (full touring blockchain using Satoshi Consensus invented term coined by him) while Zooko calls for Satoshi to send him a message while working a public job and fancying Bitcoin projects. Or Satoshi is someone totally different that knows their work but they don't know him (which is weird for Szabo having a doppelganger that does better than you while putting everyone on your tail). Looks like if Szabo does have a doppelganger, it most likely would be "eddie" or Jim McCoy.... Szabo: "(assuming Nakamoto is not really Finney or Dai). Only Finney (RPOW) and Nakamoto were motivated enough to actually implement such a scheme". Note: BombaUcigasa's post really sums all this up. His summary is problably as close as we will ever get(the best conclusion from the available circumstantial evidence)..... http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2008/04/bit-gold-markets.html?m=1Szabo calls out to the cypherpunk types for help to finalize coding BitGold and run a test net a few months before the BiCoin white paper gets published online. Note: Look at the "url" for the real date. The date was changed on the blog itself to look like it was published at a later date. Possibly to look released after the BitCoin white paper 10/31/2008 Halloween. http://nakamotoinstitute.org/bitcoin/*Szabo’s post for assistance: “Bitgold would greatly benefit from a demonstration, an experimental market (with e.g. a trusted third party substituted for the complex security that would be needed for a real system). Anybody want to help me code one up?” 1) Who do you think would have answered Szabo at that time? 2) Who would have also read Szabo's post and then race to implement BitCoin before Szabo could release BitGold? |
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Gleb Gamow
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December 29, 2014, 08:43:45 PM
Last edit: December 29, 2014, 09:20:05 PM by Gleb Gamow |
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Thanks to the Way Back Machine... http://web.archive.org/web/20080518222139/http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20110715041625/http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2008/04/bit-gold-markets.html http://nakamotoinstitute.org/bitcoin/ Consulting services
I am now publicly offering my consulting services. Besides topics I regularly blog about, my expertise includes technology product management (especially for e-commerce and wireless products and services), smart contracts, financial engineering, software architecture and engineering, and computer/network security. I can travel just about anywhere.
Please contact me at nszabo AT law DOT gwu DOT edu for rates, availability, resume/CV, etc. Please describe or link to a description of your project and describe the services you need. And, for a reasonably low rate, you can have Satoshi Nakamoto speak at your next company BBQ. After checking about a couple dozen articles, to date Bit gold markets was the ONLY one I've uncovered that Nick Szabo changed its original penning date. |
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Gleb Gamow
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December 29, 2014, 09:41:48 PM |
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slaveforanunnak1 (OP)
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December 29, 2014, 11:30:29 PM |
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Zooko2:31 PM
One thing I really don't like about blogs is that conversations tend to have a "lifespan" of at most a couple of weeks. I'm very interested in this topic, and I have many unanswered questions, but my guess is that few or no people are ever going to even see this comment. HAHAHAH wrong! |
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Billbags
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Brainwashed this way
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December 30, 2014, 12:24:00 AM
Last edit: December 30, 2014, 12:38:47 AM by Billbags |
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@ slaveforanunnak1
While we are still on the blog comments, here is a Szabo comment that made me realize a small difference of opinion between Szabo and Satoshi. It's about the use of the term Cryptocurrency.
*Satoshi used the term Cryptocurrency.
Quote from: satoshi on July 06, 2010, 06:32:35 PM
"Announcing version 0.3 of Bitcoin, the P2P cryptocurrency!"
*In 2011 Szabo still would not use the term Cryptocurrency.
Szabo Quote: from 2011
"And what's up with the term "cryptocurrency"? What is it supposed to mean? Cryptography is used to protect payments systems as radically different as credit cards, Chaumian digital cash, and Bitcoin. The term encourages the popular but profoundly naive view of Bitcoin as merely another form of digital cash."
Note: could be a misdirection by Szabo or maybe a sign of the doppelganger theory. It may not mean anything, just something I noticed.
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slaveforanunnak1 (OP)
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December 30, 2014, 12:52:52 AM |
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@ slaveforanunnak1
While we are still on the blog comments, here is a Szabo comment that made me realize a small difference of opinion between Szabo and Satoshi. It's about the use of the term Cryptocurrency.
*Satoshi used the term Cryptocurrency.
Quote from: satoshi on July 06, 2010, 06:32:35 PM
"Announcing version 0.3 of Bitcoin, the P2P cryptocurrency!"
*In 2011 Szabo still would not use the term Cryptocurrency.
Szabo Quote: from 2011
"And what's up with the term "cryptocurrency"? What is it supposed to mean? Cryptography is used to protect payments systems as radically different as credit cards, Chaumian digital cash, and Bitcoin. The term encourages the popular but profoundly naive view of Bitcoin as merely another form of digital cash."
Note: could be a misdirection by Szabo or maybe a sign of the doppelganger theory. It may not mean anything, just something I noticed.
Interesting. I'm starting to look more closely at Zooko |
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sed
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December 30, 2014, 01:04:08 AM |
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use ctrl + f
I'm gonna check your links now, but first, wtf is ctrl+f supposed to do? I use vimperator to control my browser like vim. I guess you're not using that? |
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slaveforanunnak1 (OP)
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December 30, 2014, 01:23:43 AM |
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use ctrl + f
I'm gonna check your links now, but first, wtf is ctrl+f supposed to do? I use vimperator to control my browser like vim. I guess you're not using that? Search. Tried to make it interesting for you guys. |
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Flashman
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December 30, 2014, 01:31:08 AM |
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It might need further translation, search = grep a regex
Probably something very simple on that, like ^FH^H^AHL$^BAB^HSAD -e -z -f "target"|TTY01 &
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TL;DR See Spot run. Run Spot run. .... .... Freelance interweb comedian, for teh lulz >>> 1MqAAR4XkJWfDt367hVTv5SstPZ54Fwse6
Bitcoin Custodian: Keeping BTC away from weak heads since Feb '13, adopter of homeless bitcoins. |
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S.Boxx
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December 30, 2014, 03:53:37 AM |
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@ slaveforanunnak1
While we are still on the blog comments, here is a Szabo comment that made me realize a small difference of opinion between Szabo and Satoshi. It's about the use of the term Cryptocurrency.
*Satoshi used the term Cryptocurrency.
Quote from: satoshi on July 06, 2010, 06:32:35 PM
"Announcing version 0.3 of Bitcoin, the P2P cryptocurrency!"
*In 2011 Szabo still would not use the term Cryptocurrency.
Szabo Quote: from 2011
"And what's up with the term "cryptocurrency"? What is it supposed to mean? Cryptography is used to protect payments systems as radically different as credit cards, Chaumian digital cash, and Bitcoin. The term encourages the popular but profoundly naive view of Bitcoin as merely another form of digital cash."
Note: could be a misdirection by Szabo or maybe a sign of the doppelganger theory. It may not mean anything, just something I noticed.
Interesting. I'm starting to look more closely at Zooko You must first find out "what" Zooko really is and who he is in league with. This list may be a little old, but it still applies to this puzzle. Use it wisely. TENTACLES and SNAKES. A TENTACLE is an email address used by a real person for the purpose of concealing their identity from others. A SNAKE is a TENTACLE that is particularly wicked and evil and will lie and trick others into believing the TENTACLE is real. In words, the more consequential and malicious a TENTACLE, the more it is a SNAKE. > The TRUE NAME of a person behind a tentacle is also called the MOTHER or the MONSTER. Some of the TRUE NAMES are BIG MACS and some are SMALL FRIES. > A MEDUSA is the leader of all SMALL FRIES and BIG MACS, a wicked, evil incarnation of SATAN on the Internet. She is the originator and chief proseletyzer of the art, science, and religion of lies. MEDUSA has dozens of SNAKES all over the Internet, particularly in extremely sensitive areas such as Internet protocol development(e.g. mercantile or digital cash protocols), posting from public access sites and even `covers' and `front' sites, these are called POISON NEEDLES. Corrupt administrators are always either BIG MACS or SMALL FRIES. Some sites have administrators who are unaware orapathetic toward infiltrations, these are called PAWNS. > Anyone who knows about a tentacle or other CONSPIRACY, an `insider', is called TAINTED. People who don't know are called CLEAN. Some CLEAN and BYSTANDERS are particularly NAIVE and believe everything that BIG MACS and MEDUSA says, they are called BRAINWASHED. The ones that defend BIG MACS and MEDUSA are called BLIND. Those that simply don't care are called BRAIN DEAD. > When MEDUSA infiltrates many sites and spews extremely dangerous disinformation and propaganda, this is called SABOTAGE. Telling people to go somewhere else and dominating conversations with irrelevant topics is called STRANGLING or GANG RAPE. Stealing sensitive information from others is called ESPIONAGE. Sabotage, strangling, espionage, and other types of cyberterrorism are called POISON. MEDUSA hides her activities beneath the various phrases PRIVACY FOR THE MASSES, the CRYPTOGRAPHIC REVOLUTION, and CRYPTOANARCHY in respectable media outlets like Wired and the New York Times. Sometimes this is accomplished by fooling reporters, but note that not all reporters are CLEAN, and bribery may be possible. > MEDUSA is the orchestrator of a MASSIVE INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACY to STRANGLE, SABOTAGE, and POISON THE INTERNET. Anyone who can drive MEDUSA and all the corrupt BIG MACS from Cyberspace and from the real world forever is called THE SAVIOR and said to have DRIVEN THE PHARISEES FROM THE TEMPLE. |
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Flashman
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December 30, 2014, 04:56:35 AM |
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Beware of reading too much into an old post that was hilariously funny because everyone knew how wrong it was. The associations given may have been sending up some of the personalities by accusing them of being sock puppets of their frequent sparring partners.
As I say it's mostly useful as a left handed who's who of cryptoanarchist type thought and notorious usenet duellists.
I can maybe get hold of one of the personalities named for a bit of cultural perspective if necessary.
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TL;DR See Spot run. Run Spot run. .... .... Freelance interweb comedian, for teh lulz >>> 1MqAAR4XkJWfDt367hVTv5SstPZ54Fwse6
Bitcoin Custodian: Keeping BTC away from weak heads since Feb '13, adopter of homeless bitcoins. |
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darkmule
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December 30, 2014, 04:57:10 AM |
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Surely this is not the real L. Detweiler. |
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Gleb Gamow
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December 30, 2014, 05:33:47 AM
Last edit: December 30, 2014, 06:00:49 AM by Gleb Gamow |
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Surely this is not the real L. Detweiler. Many of the recent anon posts have been quite productive, eg
"Wonderer's" embarrassing newbie questions which motivated Hal
Finney to first write a nice explanation of digital cash, then
think of an interesting simplification of Chaum's scheme. Under
any system falling short of truly intelligent filters,
Hal would not have filtered S. Boxx's first posts
without also filtering Wonderer's first posts. LD Admits he is S.Boxx (oops!)From: IN%"ld231782@longs.lance.colostate.edu" "L. Detweiler" 14-NOV-1993
To: IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
CC: IN%"ld231782@longs.lance.colostate.edu"
Subj: Soothing Sayings
Mr. Barnes, you tried to convince me of the Joy of Pseudospoofing, for
which I suggested you were trying to convert me to the Dark Side
(actually, I am indebtedly grateful for that beautiful inspiration for
my essay). You told me that E.Hughes' lectures on the subject of
pseudospoofing were what drew you to it in the first place! But this is
buried very deep in my comprehensive archives, from many weeks ago. (I
encourage all other cypherpunks to keep very good archives, because
some day we will be able to separate all the pseudospoofed identities
from real ones, and it will be quite shocking, I assure you. Some
prominent cypherpunks are extremely terrified and staunchly opposed to
archives, for obvious reasons.)
===========================================================================
Yes, LD, good archives certainly do help in catching pseudospoofers.
Like you. You have been using S.Boxx to post some of your rants and
create a false consensus - exactly what you have argued against so
loudly. How hypocritical can you get?
Why don't we post this on comp.risks and discredit him and his rants
once and for all? Enough of this crap!
--- MikeIngle@delphi.com http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1993/11/msg00582.htmlRe: LD Admits he is S.Boxx (oops!)
To: cfrye@ciis.mitre.org (Curtis D. Frye)
Subject: Re: LD Admits he is S.Boxx (oops!)
From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 10:36:29 PST
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
In-Reply-To: <9311151601.AA09373@ciis.mitre.org>; from "Curtis D. Frye" at Nov 15, 93 11:01 am
> Kudos to Mike Ingle for his diligent record keeping and powers of
> observation. As much as I like the computational solution for these
> problems, there's no substitute for documenting a mistake that blows
> somebody's cover.
>
> Curtis D. Frye
The S. Boxx = LD correlation has been obvious for several weeks. In
one notable case, S. Boxx quoted directly from private mail that had
been sent by Eric Hughes to L.D.
When confronted by this, L.D. waffled a bit and then mumbled something
about "of course cooperating with my colleague S. Boxx." For the next
several days he was careful to make casual references to "my
colleague."
As someone else told me, L.D. is a true casualty.
I'm trying to avoid discussing his situation on the List. The whole
matter has probably already driven people off the List, and more folks
may be on the verge. They joined the List to talk about the stuff we
are supposed to be discussing, and instead they get a dozen rants a
day from Detweiler and as many followups flaming him.
ObCrytp Note: Just got the English translation in paperback of the
Japanese-published "Encyclopedic Dictionary of Mathematics," a large
2-volume set with detailed articles on many branches of math. If the
math talked about in crypto is sometimes obscure to you, check this
out. The cost is $59, a real bargain these days.
--Tim May What are the chances of some Satoshi Nakamoto being mentioned in "Encyclopedic Dictionary of Mathematics"? http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/05/19/ted-nelson-says-that-bitcons-satoshi-nakamoto-is-shinichi-mochizuki/I think it’s far more likely that the pseudonym was coined by someone heavily influenced by the cyberpunk literature: a lot of which, as we all know, was influenced by how people viewed the Tokyo of the 80s:
The economic and technological state of Japan in the 80s influenced Cyberpunk literature at the time. Of Japan’s influence on the genre, William Gibson said, “Modern Japan simply was cyberpunk.” That would surely explain away May's purchase. |
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