Would you pay taxes if you could live off bitcoins?

[westkybitcoins]

Hmm. Seems as if several of us are suddenly jumping on Hawker at once. For the record, that wasn't my intent (despite having strong views on Hawker's perspective being flawed,) and as I have someplace to be, I'll leave the thread for now.

[Hawker]

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

[ribuck]

If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery ...

Frequently what you get is access to a six month waiting list, free at the point of delivery. That's not the same as access to healthcare.

[cryptoanarchist]

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.

[Hawker]

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.

Woah are we an emotional little thing tonight?  

Paying doctors directly would require doctors to charge a fee.  In the UK, doctors don't do that.  Its always a salary and bonus.  You can't expect people to set up a special system just for you.  

Out of curiosity, since what you propose is more expensive, why would you want to do that that?

[Hawker]

note: This is a answer to the question at the top. Typing on a Kindle is slow.


Nah I am fine if you pay for it (But thanks for the ad hominem)

...snip...
I am not responsible for other people unless I choose to.

Thing is, I don't believe you.  Its people like you who say they want freedom that actually do show up needing treatment and the community has to provide it.  You may say you want the community to not treat you when you are sick, but then when you get sick we are stuck with you.  You may now say that the community should let your baby die if you are broke; but when it comes to it, you will not be happy if we let your baby die.

So sadly, you are one of those who need to be compelled to pay their way.  Don't be embarrassed - lots of people are free-loaders and you have no reason be be ashamed that you want to be one too.

[Scott J]

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

[TheButterZone]

You make it sound simple.  If a man leaves his wife and baby and cancels their insurance, you are 100% happy to let that baby die?

If only there were a 100% guarantee that lack of insurance equaled dead baby. Oops, I guess we're all just imagining we exist, because certainly evolution and the eventual persistence of the human race NEVER would have happened without insurance. LOL

But with the government stealing massive chunks of peoples' income and interfering heavily with the industry so that people need insurance, government assistance, and in some cases, to file bankruptcy, to be able to get critical, competent treatment, there's a 100% guarantee that baby would be better off with a mom paying for care with 100% of her income and liberty intact, a competent doctor providing care with 100% of his income and liberty intact, and private charity aid if necessary being granted, instead of tyranny and robbery by proxy.

[Hawker]

You make it sound simple.  If a man leaves his wife and baby and cancels their insurance, you are 100% happy to let that baby die?

If only there were a 100% guarantee that lack of insurance equaled dead baby. But with the government stealing massive chunks of peoples' income and interfering heavily with the industry so that people need insurance, government assistance, and in some cases, to file bankruptcy, to be able to get critical treatment, there's a 100% guarantee that baby would be better off with a mom paying for care with 100% of her income and liberty intact, a doctor providing care with 100% of his income and liberty intact, and private charity aid if necessary being granted, instead of tyranny and robbery by proxy.

The American health care system is screwed.  But that is nothing to do with taxes.  You guys give drug companies patent monopolies and then say there is a "free market" in the drugs.  What's "free market" about having cancer, the drug company not having a published price list and you have to pay whatever they ask?

Anyway, that's off topic.  We are talking about legitimate use of the tax system to pay for health, roads, whatever.  I was seeing if the guy really accepted the "opt out" and the answer was no.  

[Hawker]

Dude (=Hawker) you really need to learn to read. I already said I would most definitely come and ask fo healthcare if I had neither money nor insurance. Every rational individual would (please reread my posts before  have to repeat myself again). How hard is it not to give it to me?

Yes - so its reasonable to insist you pay.  I think we are in agreement here aren't we?  Or are you saying that you want some kind of special deal where you don't have to pay?

[cryptoanarchist]

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.

Woah are we an emotional little thing tonight?  

Paying doctors directly would require doctors to charge a fee.  In the UK, doctors don't do that.  Its always a salary and bonus.  You can't expect people to set up a special system just for you.  

Out of curiosity, since what you propose is more expensive, why would you want to do that that?

You still don't get it, Hawker. You are the one asking for a "special system" that requires guns to be pointed  at the heads of productive people so that others can get free healthcare, while bureaucrats use the thug tactics involved to fill their own pockets which drives up the price even more.

My way requires no "special system". It only requires that people like you back the fuck off and let people buy and sell healthcare as they please.

What exactly do you think entitles you to push your ideals onto others by force?

[cryptoanarchist]

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

Yeah I have. I even gave an example: Wal-Mart

[Hawker]

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.

Woah are we an emotional little thing tonight?  

Paying doctors directly would require doctors to charge a fee.  In the UK, doctors don't do that.  Its always a salary and bonus.  You can't expect people to set up a special system just for you.  

Out of curiosity, since what you propose is more expensive, why would you want to do that that?

You still don't get it, Hawker. You are the one asking for a "special system" that requires guns to be pointed  at the heads of productive people so that others can get free healthcare, while bureaucrats use the thug tactics involved to fill their own pockets which drives up the price even more.

My way requires no "special system". It only requires that people like you back the fuck off and let people buy and sell healthcare as they please.

What exactly do you think entitles you to push your ideals onto others by force?

The issue here is you must pay for your health care.  No-one, not even children or disabled, gets free health care in the UK.  Everyone has to pay towards the cost.  IF you live here, you too have to make a contribution.  

[Scott J]

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

Yeah I have. I even gave an example: Wal-Mart

Sorry, I missed that post.

Even with a Wal-Mart of healthcare there would still be people that couldn't afford to pay for healthcare. These people would die.

[Scott J]

So, what is worse:

Letting people die because they haven't accumulated enough wealth (either through lack of effort or through mental/physical deficiencies.

or

Forcing the population to pay a level of tax in order to provide universal healthcare to all.

[Scott J]

I suggest you read Darwin's work

I suggest you don't take Darwin's work as a system to live by, but merely as a description of the natural world.

[Hawker]

So, what is worse:

Letting people die because they haven't accumulated enough wealth (either through lack of effort or through mental/physical deficiencies.

or

Forcing the population to pay a level of tax in order to provide universal healthcare to all.

Scott they won't choose.  Free-loaders say "let me die if I get sick or a car hits me" and then show up at emergency clinics desperate not to die when they are sick.  If the tax system provides the best value, you know they are not telling the truth when they say they want to opt out.

[cryptoanarchist]

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

Yeah I have. I even gave an example: Wal-Mart

Sorry, I missed that post.

Even with a Wal-Mart of healthcare there would still be people that couldn't afford to pay for healthcare. These people would die.

so where do you stop in your quest to save every human on the planet? If people can't pay for healthcare in a free market that will be their own choice. Or they're just not doing anything productive, and in that case they should die.

I mean its pretty simple: you work for money, then you use that money for healthcare. In a free market, someone will be able to provide it cheaply.

Some people might not have the money for Taco Bell, and starve, but does that mean we should start stealing tacos from productive people to feed them???

Then its the same old race to the bottom, where the capital goes not to those providing for themselves, but to the biggest beggars with the least shame.

[Hawker]

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

Yeah I have. I even gave an example: Wal-Mart

Sorry, I missed that post.

Even with a Wal-Mart of healthcare there would still be people that couldn't afford to pay for healthcare. These people would die.

so where do you stop in your quest to save every human on the planet? If people can't pay for healthcare in a free market that will be their own choice. Or they're just not doing anything productive, and in that case they should die.

You see Scott?  He says "they should die" but you know if it was his baby, he'd be banging on the hospital door for help.

Free-loader.

[Scott J]

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

Yeah I have. I even gave an example: Wal-Mart

Sorry, I missed that post.

Even with a Wal-Mart of healthcare there would still be people that couldn't afford to pay for healthcare. These people would die.

so where do you stop in your quest to save every human on the planet? If people can't pay for healthcare in a free market that will be their own choice. Or they're just not doing anything productive, and in that case they should die.

I mean its pretty simple: you work for money, then you use that money for healthcare. In a free market, someone will be able to provide it cheaply.

Some people might not have the money for Taco Bell, and starve, but does that mean we should start stealing tacos from productive people to feed them???

How about disabled or mentally ill people?

Does your callousness extend to them as well?