Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[zooitje]

It's very difficult to understand all of this. I guess possibly for 99%+ of us here. What's going on? Who are these people? And these other projects? Anyone care to elaborate? Will this stall the project? Is there a risk of a dead end?

Thanks in advance.

[stoopkid]

Sounds like it has all come down to the following:

What if Ohad has come up with something that the Autonomic folks can't even wrap their heads around (at this stage)?  If not, Autonomic it will be.


 

It's possible; we can only make a comparison based on those aspects of the design that have been publicly disclosed, so we can only really address the question of MSOL vs. MLTT. Both HMC and Ohad claim to know the answers here, but their answers are in contradiction with each other. Previously I had thought I was able to demonstrate the insufficiency of MSOL but upon closer analysis I realized that my proofs were based on flawed assumptions and misinterpretations. Since coming to this realization, have taken a step back from "pushing the MLTT agenda", and now my goal is simply to play the role of a neutral 3rd party and analyze the validity of these claims, along with carrying out some further research into the strengths and weaknesses of various other logical systems that could potentially be used (mainly just standard systems discussed frequently in academic literature on formal logic, as these have the most metatheoretic results available to aid in the comparisons, and are the most likely systems to be brought up as an actual candidate logic as MSOL and MLTT have). I'll share my results with the community as I go along, on the AutoNomic wiki, though I will warn ahead of time that the explanations will still be very technically involved; it's simply a complex subject.

It's very difficult to understand all of this. I guess possibly for 99%+ of us here. What's going on? Who are these people? And these other projects? Anyone care to elaborate? Will this stall the project? Is there a risk of a dead end?

Thanks in advance.

I'm guessing you mean HMC, myself and the AutoNomic project? Anyway, we were all originally working with Ohad but we split for various reasons, one major factor being Ohad's choice to change the planned logical framework from MLTT to MSOL. The history's all in the thread and the IRC logs, and I don't feel like dragging it up. Tau continued as same name, new design. AutoNomic continued as same design, new name. Adding this question of which logical framework to use has indeed "stalled" at least our side of the project as it's now added the goal of rigorously sorting out the differences between... nearly every standard logical framework presented in academic literature on the subject or in modern use in automated theorem proving and proof-checking, though we are still developing the MLTT-based client in parallel to this for concrete experimentation (and because until our research indicates a flaw in this choice we'll continue under the operating assumption that it will still eventually be the chosen framework). I can't speak to what's going on on the Tau side of things though (from what I understand it's not even publicly disclosed).

Edit to fix grammar mistakes.

[dmitryshech]

Previously I had thought I was able to demonstrate the insufficiency of MSOL but upon closer analysis I realized that my proofs were based on flawed assumptions and misinterpretations.Since coming to this realization, have taken a step back from "pushing the MLTT agenda", and now my goal is simply to play the role of a neutral 3rd party and analyze the validity of these claims

Adding this question of which logical framework to use has indeed "stalled" at least our side of the project as it's now added the goal of rigorously sorting out the differences between...

I have no idea what MLTT or MSOL is... I can only imagine the levels of ego between people with so high level of  proficiency in the field though.  If at some point you guys instead of sticking with the academic literature until your research indicates a flaw in this choice, you will try to unite again and work on it together it will make all the community extremely happy and I am sure will contribute much better to the project.
UNITED WE STRONG
Just MHO

[Rider311]

Previously I had thought I was able to demonstrate the insufficiency of MSOL but upon closer analysis I realized that my proofs were based on flawed assumptions and misinterpretations.Since coming to this realization, have taken a step back from "pushing the MLTT agenda", and now my goal is simply to play the role of a neutral 3rd party and analyze the validity of these claims

Adding this question of which logical framework to use has indeed "stalled" at least our side of the project as it's now added the goal of rigorously sorting out the differences between...

I have no idea what MLTT or MSOL is... I can only imagine the levels of ego between people with so high level of  proficiency in the field though.  If at some point you guys instead of sticking with the academic literature until your research indicates a flaw in this choice, you will try to unite again and work on it together it will make all the community extremely happy and I am sure will contribute much better to the project.
UNITED WE STRONG
Just MHO

Me neither. I still find it rather entertaining though. They make seemingly good points but Ohad does a good job defending himself. It's all above my head but I can get a general idea what's going on (I think).

Would someone point my towards the auto nomic thread?

[stoopkid]

I have no idea what MLTT or MSOL is... I can only imagine the levels of ego between people with so high level of  proficiency in the field though.  If at some point you guys instead of sticking with the academic literature until your research indicates a flaw in this choice, you will try to unite again and work on it together it will make all the community extremely happy and I am sure will contribute much better to the project.
UNITED WE STRONG
Just MHO

I'm not really sure what you mean wrt "instead of sticking with the academic literature" but I'm willing to work with anybody to either sort out the metatheoretic details or experiment with (open source, publicly disclosed) candidate implementations. The more the merrier. MLTT is simply the candidate the AutoNomic team is currently experimenting with, as it's unfinished business from HMC's original Tau plan. We don't yet have a metatheoretic proof of its insufficiency, so I don't see a reason for us to stop this experiment already in progress. If Ohad wants me to check out his new Tau plans, I'll check them out and give my honest attempt to understand and reach a conclusion, but I kind of guess that AutoNomic is at least one of the reasons that Tau has resorted to non-disclosure.

*shrug*

Me neither. I still find it rather entertaining though. They make seemingly good points but Ohad does a good job defending himself. It's all above my head but I can get a general idea what's going on (I think).

Would someone point my towards the auto nomic thread?

We don't have a thread here, just the freenode channel #AutoNomic.

[LiskEnterprise]

Can the Dev contact.

https://www.coinpayments.net

They are a great storage 2 factor wallet for many coins and tokens.

They accept MaidSafe already and so will have no problem with Agoras.

It is safer in a wallet we can lock much better than on exchanges.

[cryptocrude]

Ohad is busy coding away on Tau...Onward

[§]

So basically everyone from "old" tau team  split with ohad and is working on autonomic (the original tau from the videos?) , and ohad is doing his own things now.

[ahndea]

Can the Dev contact.

https://www.coinpayments.net

They are a great storage 2 factor wallet for many coins and tokens.

They accept MaidSafe already and so will have no problem with Agoras.

It is safer in a wallet we can lock much better than on exchanges.

have you tried to use original omni wallet for your agoras? the same was recommended from the beginning.

[Touque]

Sounds like it has all come down to the following:
What if Ohad has come up with something that the Autonomic folks can't even wrap their heads around (at this stage)?  If not, Autonomic it will be.

It's possible; we can only make a comparison based on those aspects of the design that have been publicly disclosed, so we can only really address the question of MSOL vs. MLTT. Both HMC and Ohad claim to know the answers here, but their answers are in contradiction with each other. Previously I had thought I was able to demonstrate the insufficiency of MSOL but upon closer analysis I realized that my proofs were based on flawed assumptions and misinterpretations. Since coming to this realization, have taken a step back from "pushing the MLTT agenda", and now my goal is simply to play the role of a neutral 3rd party and analyze the validity of these claims, along with carrying out some further research into the strengths and weaknesses of various other logical systems that could potentially be used (mainly just standard systems discussed frequently in academic literature on formal logic, as these have the most metatheoretic results available to aid in the comparisons, and are the most likely systems to be brought up as an actual candidate logic as MSOL and MLTT have). I'll share my results with the community as I go along, on the AutoNomic wiki, though I will warn ahead of time that the explanations will still be very technically involved; it's simply a complex subject.

Is it possible that both Tau-Chain and AutoNomic can succeed and work out in different ways with their own merits like PoW and PoS or Ethereum and Tezos may both succeed and work out?

[LiskEnterprise]

Can the Dev contact.

https://www.coinpayments.net

They are a great storage 2 factor wallet for many coins and tokens.

They accept MaidSafe already and so will have no problem with Agoras.

It is safer in a wallet we can lock much better than on exchanges.

have you tried to use original omni wallet for your agoras? the same was recommended from the beginning.

The advantage for https://www.coinpayments.net

Is it is one wallet for many coins, So Maidsafe, Vox, ETC, and maybe 80 other coins.

If Agoras was listed there it is safe as you can lock your coins and i will not need another wallet and another password etc.

[§]

Last month it was said you stop the ico to do other things, but even a few days ago there are still coins being sold/moved from ico address and some are even sent directly to bittrex.

In the blockexplorer you can see how many coins the ico wallet has sent too bittrex over time (or sent to an address which moves it to bittrex after).
Who are all these investors who sent their coins to bittrex immediately after buying them  

There are lots of wallets who receive big amounts of coins (anywhere from a few 1000 to as big as someone who received 1,2 million agoras last month on top of his 250k last year)
weeks/months/years apart from each other (what do these people do? do they buy for 10 cent years ago and buy 10x more in 2017 for 5x the price?)

Why is the ico address involved in so many transactions directly or indirectly to bittrex  

[ohad]

Last month it was said you stop the ico to do other things, but even a few days ago there are still coins being sold/moved from ico address and some are even sent directly to bittrex.

In the blockexplorer you can see how many coins the ico wallet has sent too bittrex over time (or sent to an address which moves it to bittrex after).
Who are all these investors who sent their coins to bittrex immediately after buying them  

There are lots of wallets who receive big amounts of coins (anywhere from a few 1000 to as big as someone who received 1,2 million agoras last month on top of his 250k last year)
weeks/months/years apart from each other (what do these people do? do they buy for 10 cent years ago and buy 10x more in 2017 for 5x the price?)

Why is the ico address involved in so many transactions directly or indirectly to bittrex  

i didnt finish all transactions (for people who bought in june). more to come. small amounts. all of them (past and near future, big and small) bought before first of july

[HIIMHOHAHA]

Last month it was said you stop the ico to do other things, but even a few days ago there are still coins being sold/moved from ico address and some are even sent directly to bittrex.

In the blockexplorer you can see how many coins the ico wallet has sent too bittrex over time (or sent to an address which moves it to bittrex after).
Who are all these investors who sent their coins to bittrex immediately after buying them  

There are lots of wallets who receive big amounts of coins (anywhere from a few 1000 to as big as someone who received 1,2 million agoras last month on top of his 250k last year)
weeks/months/years apart from each other (what do these people do? do they buy for 10 cent years ago and buy 10x more in 2017 for 5x the price?)

Why is the ico address involved in so many transactions directly or indirectly to bittrex  

i didnt finish all transactions (for people who bought in june). more to come. small amounts. all of them (past and near future, big and small) bought before first of july

but why some of them send tokens to bittrex immediately

[ohad]

Last month it was said you stop the ico to do other things, but even a few days ago there are still coins being sold/moved from ico address and some are even sent directly to bittrex.

In the blockexplorer you can see how many coins the ico wallet has sent too bittrex over time (or sent to an address which moves it to bittrex after).
Who are all these investors who sent their coins to bittrex immediately after buying them 

There are lots of wallets who receive big amounts of coins (anywhere from a few 1000 to as big as someone who received 1,2 million agoras last month on top of his 250k last year)
weeks/months/years apart from each other (what do these people do? do they buy for 10 cent years ago and buy 10x more in 2017 for 5x the price?)

Why is the ico address involved in so many transactions directly or indirectly to bittrex 

i didnt finish all transactions (for people who bought in june). more to come. small amounts. all of them (past and near future, big and small) bought before first of july

but why some of them send tokens to bittrex immediately

no idea. which? when?

[§]

Here's a random one:

ICO address                                            14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR

a bittrex address                                     1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim

collective bittrex agoras/omni asset wallet 1DUb2YYbQA1jjaNYzVXLZ7ZioEhLXtbUru


http://omnichest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim&page=1

1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim has received around 1,1million agoras from ICO address between 6/14/2017 - 7/3/2017, all sent to bittrex

This address has gotten 20+ transactions from the ico wallet with activity as far back as 2016.

1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim  has gotten it's first ever funding from 1BjzRHf4NKqWC993nvB17QieeBpvrNfTcP which in it's turn is funded again by the ico wallet.


between 5/31/2017  -   6/12/2017, this address has received millions from ico address and this all seem to have gone to bittrex.

[ohad]

Here's a random one:

ICO address                                            14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR

a bittrex address                                     1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim

collective bittrex agoras/omni asset wallet 1DUb2YYbQA1jjaNYzVXLZ7ZioEhLXtbUru


http://omnichest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim&page=1

1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim has received around 1,1million agoras from ICO address between 6/14/2017 - 7/3/2017, all sent to bittrex

This address has gotten 20+ transactions from the ico wallet with activity as far back as 2016.

1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim  has gotten it's first ever funding from 1BjzRHf4NKqWC993nvB17QieeBpvrNfTcP which in it's turn is funded again by the ico wallet.


between 5/31/2017  -   6/12/2017, this address has received millions from ico address and this all seem to have gone to bittrex.

we already spoke about this address here, see the posts by TraderNew (around https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg19657363#msg19657363 )

[§]

Aha I see thanks for the link.

Name:   TraderNew
Posts:   3
Activity:   3
Position:   Newbie
Date Registered:   19-06-2017, 21:20:21
Last Active:   22-06-2017, 15:00:27

It looks like this guy has registered at bitcointalk at the exact time this was brought up, which seems weird enough in itself.

He made 3 posts, and never posted again, the account has never even been active/logged into again since around the date he made a post claiming these addresses are his.

How did he even know we were talking about these addresses on bitcointalk..?

And while it's possible that someone invested years ago already, it's highly unlikely that they register for an account on bitcointalk 3 years later at the exact point these addresses are being discussed for receiving large sums from ico which is getting dumped on bittrex.

http://omniexplorer.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1MPT7kKfn3jJcL2f9MrBV2jPMr7rYY1R9E
http://omniexplorer.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1N8z2C5P73e6qd8feA5A67sqJzLzobA6zi
http://omniexplorer.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1PKWezfW5EnekKjpb6bG3zP11vF4DPB7jx

the first address already dumped everything at bittrex like 8 days after his posts
combined these 3 addresses have like half a million, while millions got sent to bittrex through 1F4VNv8Fe2bq3rbXzxfzWpMQ5fmpGXoLim

[HIIMHOHAHA]

Last month it was said you stop the ico to do other things, but even a few days ago there are still coins being sold/moved from ico address and some are even sent directly to bittrex.

In the blockexplorer you can see how many coins the ico wallet has sent too bittrex over time (or sent to an address which moves it to bittrex after).
Who are all these investors who sent their coins to bittrex immediately after buying them 

There are lots of wallets who receive big amounts of coins (anywhere from a few 1000 to as big as someone who received 1,2 million agoras last month on top of his 250k last year)
weeks/months/years apart from each other (what do these people do? do they buy for 10 cent years ago and buy 10x more in 2017 for 5x the price?)

Why is the ico address involved in so many transactions directly or indirectly to bittrex 

i didnt finish all transactions (for people who bought in june). more to come. small amounts. all of them (past and near future, big and small) bought before first of july

but why some of them send tokens to bittrex immediately

no idea. which? when?

   
Simple Send
74386b9f96305692e5e198a94077d134806a97d6d07587b0...   8/4/2017 9:38:45 AM
12CJQvgaGdVVsUQsvQqJrprMyuDUE2cxZG1NFiHQqyaVL3r3mZGyPQvPCty8SLmozSmg
38270
IDNI Agoras (#58)
CONFIRMED (2206 blocks)
   
Simple Send
11bfb04458fc35089f08a01249bce228832a4151d7d827d8...   7/27/2017 3:23:54 PM
14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR12CJQvgaGdVVsUQsvQqJrprMyuDUE2cxZG
382700
IDNI Agoras (#58)
CONFIRMED (3372 blocks)

http://omniexplorer.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=12CJQvgaGdVVsUQsvQqJrprMyuDUE2cxZG

   
Simple Send
81e335ec56208a54fd7bd01a178e00154f5ed0f51b47ef0a...   8/4/2017 9:44:26 AM
1NFiHQqyaVL3r3mZGyPQvPCty8SLmozSmg1DUb2YYbQA1jjaNYzVXLZ7ZioEhLXtbUru
38270
IDNI Agoras (#58)
CONFIRMED (2205 blocks)
   
Simple Send
74386b9f96305692e5e198a94077d134806a97d6d07587b0...   8/4/2017 9:38:45 AM
12CJQvgaGdVVsUQsvQqJrprMyuDUE2cxZG1NFiHQqyaVL3r3mZGyPQvPCty8SLmozSmg
38270
IDNI Agoras (#58)
CONFIRMED (2206 blocks)

http://omniexplorer.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1NFiHQqyaVL3r3mZGyPQvPCty8SLmozSmg

I remember you said the buyers must lock their coins on July tentative sale

[ohad]

I remember you said the buyers must lock their coins on July tentative sale

on the last 2-3 days of june, only they are the tentative buyers. the larger part of the sale happened during the rest of june.

as for TraderNew, of course i know him personally very well as he's one of the first buyers as he said (all he said is true)