complexring
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May 10, 2017, 08:43:26 PM |
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That is why you probably should wait as long as you can to release the whitepaper (or maybe a short version first then the full paper when it is needed.) the plan is to finish the paper first, that'd be safe and successful to my estimation, but, if buyers will repeat this request from me due to e.g. fear of competition (i.e. if more people agree with you), i can postpone publications by putting time into code (i'll reply later with little more detail about tezos) I would like to know what Tezos precisely copied. When it comes down it, marketing and a team of academics whose backgrounds are mainly in Automatic Theorem Proving / Formal Verification Theory (ATP / FVT) will prevail better even if you had the idea to apply it before them. Regardless, keep doing what you're doing. |
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complexring
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May 10, 2017, 09:10:26 PM |
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Oh. OK. I understand now. The hackernoon article didn't properly credit you. Thanks for clearing that up! |
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cryptodv
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May 10, 2017, 09:19:27 PM |
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While other projects are trying to reach the moon, Tau-Chain is trying to reach Mars. I don't really understand this project and I've seen other people state that the project is really far fetched, but let's see. I'm not knocking the project down or anything, the dev is heavily involved in his project and that's a good sign. Anything can happen in crypto. Good luck dev. I'll keep watching.
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FrictionlessCoin
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May 10, 2017, 09:37:12 PM |
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That is why you probably should wait as long as you can to release the whitepaper (or maybe a short version first then the full paper when it is needed.) the plan is to finish the paper first, that'd be safe and successful to my estimation, but, if buyers will repeat this request from me due to e.g. fear of competition (i.e. if more people agree with you), i can postpone publications by putting time into code (i'll reply later with little more detail about tezos) I'd rather you code. It's all about the product. Most people won't even understand the whitepaper anyway. The whitepaper will only raise the price of the agoras. Product, product and product. We move forward! Agree. I also don't mind waiting with the white paper. This is dog eat dog environment. It's not the first time I mention Microsoft here but Billy also stole someone's ideas, look where he's today... There is a lot of hype around Tezos now http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/billionaire-investor-tim-draper-backs-new-cryptocurrency.html so this is a very tough decision imo and everything should be taken into account. I guess it also depends on how far they can go with what they already copied Just want to add a note that Intuition Fabric's whitepaper is out. It weighs in at 124 pages: http://intuitionfabric.launchrock.com/Of course, if you are talking about something else, then my apologies. generally speaking, some buzzword combination, no matter how popular, cannot possibly make sense. deep learning + blockchain is one of them. i'll be glad to be proven wrong but i also have proofs to be right. machine learning was was my main field of r&d before i began with crypto. if there was a sound way to combine the two, i'd do it first. Well, I don't really know exactly what your plan here is, however rest assured that Intuition Fabric's (i.e. INT) approach to combining Deep Learning with Blockchain technology is quite innovative. You should read the whitepaper. Well, clearly you won't be able to do it first since you just said that 'it cannot possibly make sense'. But just to be clear, whatever you are planning with Agora Tokens, it definitely would be very different from what we are building with Intuition Fabric. So there's no conflict here. Just a very different approach. |
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ohad (OP)
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May 10, 2017, 09:39:25 PM |
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That is why you probably should wait as long as you can to release the whitepaper (or maybe a short version first then the full paper when it is needed.) the plan is to finish the paper first, that'd be safe and successful to my estimation, but, if buyers will repeat this request from me due to e.g. fear of competition (i.e. if more people agree with you), i can postpone publications by putting time into code (i'll reply later with little more detail about tezos) I'd rather you code. It's all about the product. Most people won't even understand the whitepaper anyway. The whitepaper will only raise the price of the agoras. Product, product and product. We move forward! Agree. I also don't mind waiting with the white paper. This is dog eat dog environment. It's not the first time I mention Microsoft here but Billy also stole someone's ideas, look where he's today... There is a lot of hype around Tezos now http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/billionaire-investor-tim-draper-backs-new-cryptocurrency.html so this is a very tough decision imo and everything should be taken into account. I guess it also depends on how far they can go with what they already copied Just want to add a note that Intuition Fabric's whitepaper is out. It weighs in at 124 pages: http://intuitionfabric.launchrock.com/Of course, if you are talking about something else, then my apologies. generally speaking, some buzzword combination, no matter how popular, cannot possibly make sense. deep learning + blockchain is one of them. i'll be glad to be proven wrong but i also have proofs to be right. machine learning was was my main field of r&d before i began with crypto. if there was a sound way to combine the two, i'd do it first. Well, I don't really know exactly what your plan here is, however rest assured that Intuition Fabric's (i.e. INT) approach to combining Deep Learning with Blockchain technology is quite innovative. You should read the whitepaper. Well, clearly you won't be able to do it first since you just said that 'it cannot possibly make sense'. But just to be clear, whatever you are planning with Agora Tokens, it definitely would be very different from what we are building with Intuition Fabric. So there's no conflict here. Just a very different approach. indeed by "generally speaking" i referred mainly to not reading the whitepaper (which cost $8 to read which is weird but i can understand why people do so, not agree much though), and indeed there's no conflict at all as that's not what tau tries to do, as i dont see any added value in doing such a thing. added value in combining machine learning with blockchain. not in machine learning in general. "deep" is just a shallow buzzword |
Tau-Chain & Agoras
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FrictionlessCoin
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May 10, 2017, 09:41:18 PM |
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In scanning your website, it appears that you are taking a GOFAI (Good Old Fashion AI) approach.
That is different from Intuition Fabric (INT) that uses a Deep Learning approach.
It is the difference between the Symbolists approach to AI versus the Connectionists approach to AI.
Anyway, do let me know when you get your whitepaper out. I definitely would be interested in reading it.
Mine is out, so you can always read it.
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ohad (OP)
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May 10, 2017, 09:42:19 PM |
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In scanning your website, it appears that you are taking a GOFAI (Good Old Fashion AI) approach.
That is different from Intuition Fabric (INT) that uses a Deep Learning approach.
It is the difference between the Symbolists approach to AI versus the Connectionists approach to AI.
almost. is the difference between learning from example using statistical methods, to rule-based-ai. to just use logical inference. the former is a special case of the latter, not vice versa. further, the latter makes sense in a trustless p2p network, not the former. |
Tau-Chain & Agoras
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FrictionlessCoin
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May 10, 2017, 09:45:33 PM |
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In scanning your website, it appears that you are taking a GOFAI (Good Old Fashion AI) approach.
That is different from Intuition Fabric (INT) that uses a Deep Learning approach.
It is the difference between the Symbolists approach to AI versus the Connectionists approach to AI.
almost. is the difference between learning from example using statistical methods, to rule-based-ai. to just use logical inference. the former is a special case of the latter, not vice versa. further, the latter makes sense in a trustless p2p network, not the former. Yes, I think we can agree on the differences in the approach. I would disagree though with the former being a special case. Humans aren't built like machines, but are capable of logic inference. I use the Ethereum network for P2P capabilities. I don't use it as part of the inference process. Anyway, best of luck with your project! I will be at the NYC Token Summit on May 25th, we can chat then if you are attending. |
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ohad (OP)
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May 10, 2017, 09:48:12 PM |
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is a special case because machine learning algos can be formalized in logic. eth's coordination is over the blockchain only, and that's part of their limitation. it's "code inside blockchain", not "blockchain inside code". on tau, it gives rise to reason over the network as a whole. in other words, if eth would replace the contract language to decidable one, they still cannot assert that the contract won't break the global eth network/economy. feel free to discuss machine learning or blockchain stuff with me, here or in any other media, e.g. email ( ohad@idni.org) or irc (#zennet on freenode) |
Tau-Chain & Agoras
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FrictionlessCoin
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May 10, 2017, 09:51:59 PM |
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is a special case because machine learning algos can be formalized in logic.
eth's coordination is over the blockchain only, and that's part of their limitation. it's "code inside blockchain", not "blockchain inside code". on tau, it gives rise to reason over the network as a whole. in other words, if eth would replace the contract language to decidable one, they still cannot assert that the contract won't break the global eth network/economy.
feel free to discuss machine learning or blockchain stuff with me, here or in any other media
So if I understand your approach correctly, you want to do something like Tezos (i.e Nomic), where all rules are immutable? That's an interesting research idea, but I'll watch the area to see how it progresses. I don't know yet if I need that kind of P2P network, but we shall see. |
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ohad (OP)
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May 10, 2017, 09:55:36 PM |
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well the old tau design (which you see in the website) is nomic-based, but not the new one (which was partly revealed here). to come up with a candidate rule, which is a single turn in nomic, is a whole mission by its own, that deserve collaboration. aside neglecting more human aspects (like the need to vote to possibly so many and so complex rules). nomic therefore cannot really scale or become decentralized, or useful in large groups.
the point is to have a decentralized ever growing knowledgebase, in a social network setting. this as for itself doesnt require a blockchain. but the next step does: to make the system itself self-defining and self-amending, collaboratively yet securely, in a decentralized fashion
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Tau-Chain & Agoras
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FrictionlessCoin
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May 11, 2017, 02:19:19 AM |
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well the old tau design (which you see in the website) is nomic-based, but not the new one (which was partly revealed here). to come up with a candidate rule, which is a single turn in nomic, is a whole mission by its own, that deserve collaboration. aside neglecting more human aspects (like the need to vote to possibly so many and so complex rules). nomic therefore cannot really scale or become decentralized, or useful in large groups.
the point is to have a decentralized ever growing knowledgebase, in a social network setting. this as for itself doesnt require a blockchain. but the next step does: to make the system itself self-defining and self-amending, collaboratively yet securely, in a decentralized fashion
What's the ETA when you get something that describes this in more detail? |
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ohad (OP)
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May 11, 2017, 06:44:37 AM |
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well the old tau design (which you see in the website) is nomic-based, but not the new one (which was partly revealed here). to come up with a candidate rule, which is a single turn in nomic, is a whole mission by its own, that deserve collaboration. aside neglecting more human aspects (like the need to vote to possibly so many and so complex rules). nomic therefore cannot really scale or become decentralized, or useful in large groups.
the point is to have a decentralized ever growing knowledgebase, in a social network setting. this as for itself doesnt require a blockchain. but the next step does: to make the system itself self-defining and self-amending, collaboratively yet securely, in a decentralized fashion
What's the ETA when you get something that describes this in more detail? unless the buyers stop me due to fear of competition or so, some in few days, some in few weeks, it seems (only seems) |
Tau-Chain & Agoras
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FrictionlessCoin
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May 11, 2017, 10:30:50 AM |
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well the old tau design (which you see in the website) is nomic-based, but not the new one (which was partly revealed here). to come up with a candidate rule, which is a single turn in nomic, is a whole mission by its own, that deserve collaboration. aside neglecting more human aspects (like the need to vote to possibly so many and so complex rules). nomic therefore cannot really scale or become decentralized, or useful in large groups.
the point is to have a decentralized ever growing knowledgebase, in a social network setting. this as for itself doesnt require a blockchain. but the next step does: to make the system itself self-defining and self-amending, collaboratively yet securely, in a decentralized fashion
What's the ETA when you get something that describes this in more detail? unless the buyers stop me due to fear of competition or so, some in few days, some in few weeks, it seems (only seems) Well looking forward to this. I know writing a white paper can be very challenging, but sometimes you can't be perfect. |
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victorserrano
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May 12, 2017, 09:39:23 AM |
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Hello Ohad, What do you think of the BOScoin platform? It is a decentralized and self-evolving blockchain, that is, it could be self-defined as TauChain. It has a network of congresses and any user can join the congress to vote and change the code or rules of the network. It also uses the web ontology language but unlike TauChain that will use RDF, BOScoin will use OWL DL since according to the white book of BOScoin the ontological language RDF does not support P-time integrity (although I do not know exactly what it means). BOScoin wants to combine the OWL language with TAL, since the latter models the programming logic. What significant differences and advantages could TauChain bring to BOScoin? https://boscoin.io/en/home/ |
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ohad (OP)
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May 12, 2017, 12:14:58 PM |
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Hello Ohad, What do you think of the BOScoin platform? It is a decentralized and self-evolving blockchain, that is, it could be self-defined as TauChain. It has a network of congresses and any user can join the congress to vote and change the code or rules of the network. It also uses the web ontology language but unlike TauChain that will use RDF, BOScoin will use OWL DL since according to the white book of BOScoin the ontological language RDF does not support P-time integrity (although I do not know exactly what it means). BOScoin wants to combine the OWL language with TAL, since the latter models the programming logic. What significant differences and advantages could TauChain bring to BOScoin? https://boscoin.io/en/home/boscoin, like tezos, broadly speaking, interested in a consensus/governance/amendment model of a currency, part of its underlying mechanics, and smart contracts. tau is about the very general concept of people forming sharing and following an idea collaboratively (and eventually doing so to tau itself). therefore unlike the other two, it doesn’t even have a coin. not only we claim that “there is no one consensus scheme to rule them all”, we also claim that “there is no one language to rule them all”, far to mention one complexity class like P, which i can understand the rationale leading to this choice in a coin ledger setting, however i doubt whether P is enough to express self-amendment. the new tau is about human-machine-human group communication, that also lets its users to define languages and even reason over their logical properties (like completeness and consistency). the language doesn’t matter, can speak any language, as long as someone taught tau to understand it. im holding myself from pointing to more differences in order to keep some technical surprises for later. |
Tau-Chain & Agoras
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FrictionlessCoin
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May 12, 2017, 02:03:57 PM |
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Hello Ohad, What do you think of the BOScoin platform? It is a decentralized and self-evolving blockchain, that is, it could be self-defined as TauChain. It has a network of congresses and any user can join the congress to vote and change the code or rules of the network. It also uses the web ontology language but unlike TauChain that will use RDF, BOScoin will use OWL DL since according to the white book of BOScoin the ontological language RDF does not support P-time integrity (although I do not know exactly what it means). BOScoin wants to combine the OWL language with TAL, since the latter models the programming logic. What significant differences and advantages could TauChain bring to BOScoin? https://boscoin.io/en/home/boscoin, like tezos, broadly speaking, interested in a consensus/governance/amendment model of a currency, part of its underlying mechanics, and smart contracts. tau is about the very general concept of people forming sharing and following an idea collaboratively (and eventually doing so to tau itself). therefore unlike the other two, it doesn’t even have a coin. not only we claim that “there is no one consensus scheme to rule them all”, we also claim that “there is no one language to rule them all”, far to mention one complexity class like P, which i can understand the rationale leading to this choice in a coin ledger setting, however i doubt whether P is enough to express self-amendment. the new tau is about human-machine-human group communication, that also lets its users to define languages and even reason over their logical properties (like completeness and consistency). the language doesn’t matter, can speak any language, as long as someone taught tau to understand it. im holding myself from pointing to more differences in order to keep some technical surprises for later. I am curious if you have any literature that discusses what you are talking about here? More specifically this idea about human-machine-human group communication. |
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ohad (OP)
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May 12, 2017, 04:24:06 PM |
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Hello Ohad, What do you think of the BOScoin platform? It is a decentralized and self-evolving blockchain, that is, it could be self-defined as TauChain. It has a network of congresses and any user can join the congress to vote and change the code or rules of the network. It also uses the web ontology language but unlike TauChain that will use RDF, BOScoin will use OWL DL since according to the white book of BOScoin the ontological language RDF does not support P-time integrity (although I do not know exactly what it means). BOScoin wants to combine the OWL language with TAL, since the latter models the programming logic. What significant differences and advantages could TauChain bring to BOScoin? https://boscoin.io/en/home/boscoin, like tezos, broadly speaking, interested in a consensus/governance/amendment model of a currency, part of its underlying mechanics, and smart contracts. tau is about the very general concept of people forming sharing and following an idea collaboratively (and eventually doing so to tau itself). therefore unlike the other two, it doesn’t even have a coin. not only we claim that “there is no one consensus scheme to rule them all”, we also claim that “there is no one language to rule them all”, far to mention one complexity class like P, which i can understand the rationale leading to this choice in a coin ledger setting, however i doubt whether P is enough to express self-amendment. the new tau is about human-machine-human group communication, that also lets its users to define languages and even reason over their logical properties (like completeness and consistency). the language doesn’t matter, can speak any language, as long as someone taught tau to understand it. im holding myself from pointing to more differences in order to keep some technical surprises for later. I am curious if you have any literature that discusses what you are talking about here? More specifically this idea about human-machine-human group communication. let me know if you find any |
Tau-Chain & Agoras
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victorserrano
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May 12, 2017, 04:50:30 PM |
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Hello Ohad, this is the idea I have about TauChain, correct me if I'm wrong.
TauChain is a decentralized p2p block chain network in whose block a code is stored with the operating rules of that platform. When the TauChain platform is officially released, the Genesis block will come standard without specific rules that define it and will be its first users to develop these rules. It could be said that it will be the first decentralized system of governance whose laws and rules will be marked by the consensus of the entire user community. The development of the current blockchain and its development depends on the group of programmers have designed the system, for example, Ethereum depends on its developers to evolve since it can not be modified by the consensus of other people outside the team, so they must practice Hardfork every time they want to update the system, this could be a problem since many chains of Ethereum could be left in the market, confusing the user and quoting along with the rest of chains Ethereum, an example of this would be Ethereum classic. In contrast, Tauchain will not need Hardfork to evolve as it will improve and update its code according to the consensus of all its users, which would make it a completely decentralized system. From what I understand, your work Oham and the team of the rest of the team that is designing Tauchain is not to update or fully develop the network, but to create its beginnings so that once it is released to the public, its users are those who work on it. That is, you are trying to create the intelligent Tau language and incorporate it into a chain of blocks.
Within the chain of TauChain blocks can be created centralized and decentralized applications that can be constantly updated according to the rules that have been imposed when they have been programmed. I suppose there will be applications whose development is centralized, others semi-decentralized and others whose development will be totally decentralized to TauChain.
Another feature that would make TauChain unique is the use of an intelligent language that will be able to understand and virtually express rules, processes and any arbitrary knowledge such as contracts, mathematical proofs, facts, scientific arguments and legal documents.
One of its first applications or platforms on Tauchain is Agoras whose native currency (Agora) will make up a total of 40 million. Agoras, unlike other decentralized economic markets, will be the first smart money market due to the Tau language, and will create different economic applications such as the current Augur and Golem platforms on Ethereum, but unlike these, the applications of Agoras Will benefit from the advantages of Tauchain's intelligent system (smart money).
But not only will Tauchain be used to develop a new economic system but its intelligent and decentralized block chain can be used to create new decentralized platforms based on blockchain technology that has nothing to do with the economy.
In conclusion Tauchain could be the origin of the origin of a community blockchain network.
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