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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 281142 times)
onetwo12
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May 29, 2017, 06:59:47 PM
 #1861

35   Byteball Byteball   $61,942,768   $327.25   189,284 GBYTE *   $136,613   +14.31%   


byteball will be top10 in 1 year.

yeah, if people actually will start using it for buying/selling goods and if it gets listed on some more exchanges,
it could get even top 3. blackbytes will be up too if dnm's adopt it, I even recall someone saying its cryptocurrency 3.0
because of DAG and how consensus works


Byteball is actually the true cryptocurrency 2.0. Ethereum and other similar shitcoins only flirt with the idea of being 2.0 while in reality they are all the same old same old block chain based token systems. No innovation. Turing completeness does not make a coin magically a level higher than Bitcoin and certainly there is nothing innovative about Turing completeness. The guy died in 1954 anyway. So far Turing completeness has made more people suffer than it has done any good in the smart contracts space. It's ridiculous.

i have to say you have a good point!

why i have the feeling one day byteball will replace that Ethereum?

lol



this guy have a good point!

Ethereum maybe replaced by some other coins in 2-3 years.


is this a good point?


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UrsaMajorisBeta
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May 29, 2017, 11:42:58 PM
 #1862


turing complete languages leave you helpless predicting what your code is going to do, except the "wait and see" way
Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley

I can try to give you an analogy. Let's take cargo ships for instance.

Generalist ships can carry stuff of all shape and form with no restriction other than their size and weight limits: space rockets, airplanes, cranes, train wagons, whatever. It's cool because you can really carry anything. But it comes with its own difficulties: it's pretty much impossible to plan in advance how exactly you are going to arrange the things you need to load so that they will fit neatly and optimally and won't move during the trip. Sometimes your guys at the dock will manage to find a solution quick. Sometimes they'll have to load and unload things so many times that it seems like it takes forever. And that's when you don't have someone asking you to ship something so enormous that it blocks your docks for a week when you figure how to ship it at all. This type of ship is turing complete. In theory it could ship the moon. It could ship anything of any size if you have an infinitely large ship, and infinite number of dockers and an infinite amount of time. But in practice that doesn't really work like that, and the actual ships that end ups being used are all limited in size, and your docks have only that many cranes and that many dockers to help. Those ships are a watered down finite version of the real thing. So what happens with the real-life finite turing ships is that they work ok until it don't. And you can't really tell in advance when things are going to be smooth at the dock or when it will become really messy because the only way to decide how things gonna fit and what ship to use is to try to fit them in the ships. Of course there are many trivial shipments but the problem is you have no guarantees that a shipment will be easy to handle, difficult or downright impossible. But that's not the worse thing: the nightmare of turing-complete shippers is the outsourcing business, that is to say when another shipping company asks them to ship the cargo of their clients who may themselves be shipping companies outsourcing for other shipping companies and so on. Since they are all in the same business of turing-complete shipping as you are, they can't tell what the size of their cargo will be, and their clients don't know either etc. And if you yourself start to outsource unknowingly to one of the clients of one of your own client, that's where things start becoming self-referent and in some cases paradoxal, leading to capacity planning decisions that are sometime inconsistent.

Some other ships are specialized in carrying containers. They can carry only containers, and all the containers need to have exactly the same dimensions. No exception allowed. The containers are spacious, and inside the containers you can arrange things the way you want so it's not a problem for a large majority of the typical use cases. This type of ships is called total functional ships. The advantage is that even a 10-year-old could tell you just how many containers you can load on your ship if you give him the dimensions of the deck and the height limit so it's really easy to make sure that you always have the exact right capacity for your cargo, and your dock is working in continuous streaming loading container after container and ship after ship 24/7. But the problem is that you just can't carry anything larger than a container, making the shipping solution non-complete. Well, in fact there is a little secret: with some coordination you can carry anything of any size, but you'll need your customers to be smart and figure a way to breakdown the cargo into components that can fit in a container. You'll still be able to ship a plane, a rocket, the moon or even the whole infinite universe, but it will all have to be done in small parts, chunks and/or raw materials, that you will reassemble on the other end, effectively recovering the full expressiveness of what turing-complete ships are able to do, but over a controlled sequence of individual containers possibly carried by an infinity of ships. That requires a lot more thinking and engineering ahead of time than just shipping things piecemeal, but the reward is that at least at the time the cargo arrives at the dock, you don't have to worry that it could be too big to handle, and there is always a solution to the questions of how to load the cargo and how long it will take to your dockers to do the job. Like in the case of turing-complete shippers, you can also handle the outsourcing business of other containers shippers and outsource yourself, but since everybody can forecast what they are going to ship because nobody accepts cargo that's not already been quantified, it's impossible in the total functional shipping business to get requirements like "I will ship through you what is being shipped through me" but rather requirements like "I will ship 159 containers". This forced determination in relationships prevents the occurrence of self-referent cargo and guarantees that capacity planning leads to results that are always consistent.

In this analogy, Tau-Chain is a container ship company and Ethereum a generalist ship company.

Tau-chain can tell to its client how much their cargo will cost to ship, how long its gonna take and when a single ship isn't enough and will use all and any container ship available of any size regardless and manage to dispatch all the cargo optimally. It can make all sorts of predictions on the shipping like checking that weight is well balanced, or that temperature in the containers remains within a certain range etc. Clients can attach to containers  fast automated procedures called proofs which took them quite some time to prepare but that will allow to clear automatically and very fast custom, security, and quality controls at the arrival point so that the cargo can be deployed right away to its intended use and used on the spot. Another interesting aspect of Tau-chain is that it finds its container system (Tau) so good that the company decided to eat its own dog food and sequence itself in a continuously evolving series of its own containers with custom procedures to maintain its own integrity as it evolves.

Ethereum on the other hand can't quite tell in advance just how big a ship will be needed for any specific cargo nor if it will fit at all in any ship, so what it does is to let the client decide themselves what size of ship they want to use (the client would typically simulate a dock in his backyard to try to predict what volume his cargo could take) and make them pay for the service in advance. When the cargo arrives at the dock, if it fits in the planned ship Ethereum sends the ship even if it's not full. And if the cargo doesn't fit, it's just thrown in the sea. Either way they keep the money. Cargo doesn't come with any sort of automated clearance test, so it's up to their intended users to figure if the cargo is correct and have it pass all clearance tests before they can use it safely (which is never entirely certain as the case of the DAO has shown).

I hope this analogy helps making these computing paradigms less abstract. There are many approximations and concepts that I had to stretch to makes them work with the analogy and are not really exact but that should give a rough idea of the differences, and how these affect the distributed computers that implement them.

After the response on reddit by 'just some guy' i'm interested in what experts here think about this (https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6doeqc/what_does_ethroll_take_so_long/di53vny/):
Quote
Cargo doesn't come with any sort of automated clearance test, so it's up to their intended users to figure if the cargo is correct and have it pass all clearance tests before they can use it safely (which is never entirely certain as the case of the DAO has shown).
vbuterin: I really have to push back against this part of the description. The vast majority of attacks against smart contracts, and smart contract bugs, have nothing whatsoever to do with the Turing complete versus bounded execution dichotomy.

Thanks for sharing, this was quite clarifying. I wonder if there are posts like this which also deserve to be bumped.

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May 31, 2017, 09:00:42 AM
 #1863

in the first of july, one month from now, the price of direct sale will be doubled, for two reasons:
1. right now it's more expensive on bittrex than on direct sale, and we want to "clear the way up" on the exchange, to let more people be able to cash out and tokens to replace hands, and the price to rise. besides it's not fair that uninformed buyers pay more than they should when they buy on bittrex.
2. im flooded with "contact us" so i better refer them all to bittrex (at least until the price catches up)

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May 31, 2017, 01:07:55 PM
 #1864

Good news for investors, and fair play for newbies , great idea ohad.
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May 31, 2017, 09:16:43 PM
 #1865

Ohad, the  erc20 of ethereum will  be a standar, many of the world big companys are on the ethereum alliance, and all sidechain of ethereum work whit it, you think create agoras in this standar or create some bridge or tauchain will no can work with other blockchains like ethereum and its sidechains?
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May 31, 2017, 09:41:54 PM
 #1866

all kinds of bridges are possible. the question is whether they'll be fully decentralized, or some kind of 3rd party trust will be needed. except than that, can be also wheat

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May 31, 2017, 11:35:19 PM
 #1867

Ohad, will there be a draft whitepaper before the paper. The cap is really high for a coin with no whitepaper.

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June 01, 2017, 04:39:20 AM
 #1868

in the first of july, one month from now, the price of direct sale will be doubled, for two reasons:
1. right now it's more expensive on bittrex than on direct sale, and we want to "clear the way up" on the exchange, to let more people be able to cash out and tokens to replace hands, and the price to rise. besides it's not fair that uninformed buyers pay more than they should when they buy on bittrex.
2. im flooded with "contact us" so i better refer them all to bittrex (at least until the price catches up)

Hi Ohad, I would like to buy some agoras tokens.  What is the best place to buy them now?
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June 01, 2017, 06:17:45 AM
 #1869

Ohad, will there be a draft whitepaper before the paper. The cap is really high for a coin with no whitepaper.

note that there's an old whitepaper and plenty of more articles and materials

in the first of july, one month from now, the price of direct sale will be doubled, for two reasons:
1. right now it's more expensive on bittrex than on direct sale, and we want to "clear the way up" on the exchange, to let more people be able to cash out and tokens to replace hands, and the price to rise. besides it's not fair that uninformed buyers pay more than they should when they buy on bittrex.
2. im flooded with "contact us" so i better refer them all to bittrex (at least until the price catches up)

Hi Ohad, I would like to buy some agoras tokens.  What is the best place to buy them now?

depends on the amount, as in the calculator https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EjW1s66T75vnWh7WSzuP0vxcx1vdwlqCm2JOmlVlPOg/edit#gid=0
can email me for specific quotes ohad@idni.org

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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June 01, 2017, 10:22:18 AM
 #1870

Sounds familair on some parts on others not. Btw. are you spamming all coin threads or is it just coincidence i saw the same on the SKY announcement one?

From the content what qtum is *not* or at least not named is:
- the language interface
- the non turing approach(qtum is based on ethereum)
- the knowledge base
- the ability to know if a statement is true or not

And probably much more.

Cheers
MM

thank you for the explain MM

i am holding some TAU

i just hope oneday TAU can be as big as Ethereum.

i do not know when, but i hope maybe in 2-3 years.

i brought tau because i love it.



I guess most people here do Smiley Good luck.
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June 02, 2017, 09:37:20 AM
 #1871

This article is spot on about the scalability problems of Ethereum. The explosion in the so called D-apps might prove to be more of a burden to the network than a benefit to the "price".

https://medium.com/@yobanjo/how-etheroll-and-other-dapps-will-kill-ethereum-e973d8e1c465

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June 02, 2017, 05:54:39 PM
 #1872

This article is spot on about the scalability problems of Ethereum. The explosion in the so called D-apps might prove to be more of a burden to the network than a benefit to the "price".

https://medium.com/@yobanjo/how-etheroll-and-other-dapps-will-kill-ethereum-e973d8e1c465

Talking with the team of iex.ec , they have a plan to solve it. I dont know how , but they tell this to me.
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June 02, 2017, 07:38:19 PM
 #1873

I can transfer Agoras Token to every BTC address and as soon as a client is out there see and use them, having the appropriate btc wallet right?
What happens when there is a fork before that?
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June 03, 2017, 05:34:36 AM
 #1874

I can transfer Agoras Token to every BTC address and as soon as a client is out there see and use them, having the appropriate btc wallet right?
What happens when there is a fork before that?

Anytime a coin forks two separate networks are generated, so as long as you don't lose your private key everything is ok.
As for claimability/functionality, it remains up to the token issuer to support the development of their project on either blockchain

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snowboard789
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June 03, 2017, 07:07:27 AM
 #1875

I wanna buy some agoras and I emailed followed the instructions of the /presale website but didn't get a message back. is it usually a bit slow?
mightyMight
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June 03, 2017, 07:11:42 AM
 #1876

I wanna buy some agoras and I emailed followed the instructions of the /presale website but didn't get a message back. is it usually a bit slow?
Count in around 72h response time.
You will get an answer. I got one after some days Wink
J.frank
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June 03, 2017, 07:19:03 AM
 #1877

Maybe after 5 years, ohad would probably do the same thing every day in this forum and tell us tau will take about 1 years+ to release still.
 Smiley
mightyMight
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June 03, 2017, 07:54:07 AM
 #1878

Maybe after 5 years, ohad would probably do the same thing every day in this forum and tell us tau will take about 1 years+ to release still.
 Smiley

What was the official release date?
mightyMight
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June 03, 2017, 08:04:58 AM
 #1879

I can transfer Agoras Token to every BTC address and as soon as a client is out there see and use them, having the appropriate btc wallet right?
What happens when there is a fork before that?

Anytime a coin forks two separate networks are generated, so as long as you don't lose your private key everything is ok.
As for claimability/functionality, it remains up to the token issuer to support the development of their project on either blockchain
Thanks
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June 03, 2017, 04:37:48 PM
 #1880

Maybe after 5 years, ohad would probably do the same thing every day in this forum and tell us tau will take about 1 years+ to release still.
 Smiley

What was the official release date?

One day after 1 year+ forever.
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