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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3901528 times)
empoweoqwj
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February 03, 2014, 09:17:34 AM
 #16881

That sounds really good then. Just the sort of thing AM were considering doing but would probably not got round to in a month of Sundays Smiley

Can we add it to the question list for next round of questions?

Would AM consider using "Counterparty" decentralized exchange to run their shares on?

Some question like that anyway .....
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February 03, 2014, 06:57:45 PM
 #16882

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

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_mr_e
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February 03, 2014, 08:19:11 PM
 #16883

Great care needs to be taken in evaluating options for what to do with shares.

Counterparty, Mastercoin, Colored Coins, and I'm sure other systems could all probably serve the needs of AM, but it is important to thoroughly evaluate the pros and cons of each solution.

I am inclined to think that AM is serious enough of a company that they should sit back for a nice long while (in bitcoin time) and let other people take on the risk of adopting these systems. After the market has spoken and there is a clear winner(s), then AM can safely adopt such a system.

Don't forget Ethereum. Feels to me like that one is gonna swoop out of nowhere and surprise everyone.
jimmothy
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February 03, 2014, 08:26:33 PM
 #16884

Great care needs to be taken in evaluating options for what to do with shares.

Counterparty, Mastercoin, Colored Coins, and I'm sure other systems could all probably serve the needs of AM, but it is important to thoroughly evaluate the pros and cons of each solution.

I am inclined to think that AM is serious enough of a company that they should sit back for a nice long while (in bitcoin time) and let other people take on the risk of adopting these systems. After the market has spoken and there is a clear winner(s), then AM can safely adopt such a system.

Hoping colored coins takes off. I've heard mastercoin has a few cool features but that doesn't matter if its centralized.
minerpumpkin
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February 03, 2014, 09:52:49 PM
 #16885

That sounds really good then. Just the sort of thing AM were considering doing but would probably not got round to in a month of Sundays Smiley

Can we add it to the question list for next round of questions?

Would AM consider using "Counterparty" decentralized exchange to run their shares on?

Some question like that anyway .....

Sounds definitely like a possible question!

I should have gotten into Bitcoin back in 1992...
Bitye West
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February 03, 2014, 10:20:20 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2014, 10:31:24 PM by Bitye West
 #16886

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.
Whtwabbit
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February 03, 2014, 10:40:40 PM
 #16887

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

Did you read this bit?

Counterparty Announcement

The code being released here is alpha-quality and under heavy development. Expect to encounter major bugs, including loss of funds. (Please report them when you do!)

The Counterparty protocol has not yet been finalized! You may lose your money if it changes!



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bitcoin.newsfeed
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February 03, 2014, 11:16:52 PM
 #16888

Hoping colored coins takes off. I've heard mastercoin has a few cool features but that doesn't matter if its centralized.

I am for colored coins as well.

... Question Everything, Believe Nothing ...
ThickAsThieves
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February 03, 2014, 11:46:10 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2014, 11:58:56 PM by ThickAsThieves
 #16889

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

In case any of you missed it in my old rants, I don't actually believe decentralized exchanges are a good thing. Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

I don't even believe decentralized exchanges are sustainable in any way that provides valuable purpose. Most amount to moving trust from one place to another, or breaking trust into a few parts. Trust is always required, efficiency is always required, resources are always required. These things all converge as order in chaos. That order is centralization.

I'm not a part of the "decentralize everything!" parade, but I do believe in the concept of "empires to ashes". Eventually a thing becomes so central and powerful it collapses, whether it be by its own lack of agility, or by a paradigm shift. For many people, Bitcoin is the first time they experienced a paradigm shift in a very long time. It's exciting to have your world rocked, but Bitcoin is not a casting call for paradigm-shifters. Way too many people think we now have the power to break apart anything we can get our hands on, and turn into little pieces that somehow work better. Decentralization is not your hammer, and stock exchanges are not your nail.

I can appreciate people trying new things, but an economy is more than protocol, sorry. I'm not saying the theory of a Colored Coin exchange is impossible, I'm saying the usefulness of it is. Any fruits of Colored Coin, Master Coin, etc, will do nothing more than appear decentralized in concept, and behave centralized in practice.

Even Bitcoin itself only thrives through where it is efficiently "centralized": mining pools, exchanges, venture capital, this forum, etc, etc, etc.

Having to trust 3 people instead of 1 is not decentralization. Having to trust that system instead of this one, is not decentralization. Do you REALLY want every business under the sun "IPO"ing? Is every random business truly qualified to run its own security? So what if you can trust the decentralized exchange, none of the issuers will be easy to trust, now will they? How do you trust what you are buying and whom you buy it from?

If you really want to mitigate trust issues in this world, why aren't you all fighting to get people to use a/the Web of Trust (http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php)? Why are people finding ways to pervert bitcoin with burns, when they should be making a decentralized web of trust that is more friendly and easy to use? Doesn't anyone realize how big "digital identity" will be going forward?

We don't need more tinkering with reinventing Bitcoin, we need an agile identity/trust service. Think about it. Sure we have the current WoT, sure we have +Trust in this forum. But the WoT is not easy to use for beginners, nor is it a convenient means of auth/trust for online services. And, the forum's +Trust feature is much too centralized, weak, and narrow in focus.

Finally, everyone, please don't be an idiot and go "burning" coins, or locking them into some silly meta protocol forever. Anyone that's been around for more than a couple months should know by now to just hold onto your damn bitcoins. That's all you have to do.
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February 04, 2014, 12:14:02 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2014, 09:32:01 AM by hdbuck
 #16890

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

...

Finally, everyone, please don't be an idiot and go "burning" coins, or locking them into some silly meta protocol forever. Anyone that's been around for more than a couple months should know by now to just hold onto your damn bitcoins. That's all you have to do.

yup, fair enough, i hear you sir

and what about holding our AM shares? Grin
vortex1878
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February 04, 2014, 12:28:38 AM
 #16891

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

In case any of you missed it in my old rants, I don't actually believe decentralized exchanges are a good thing. Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

I don't even believe decentralized exchanges are sustainable in any way that provides valuable purpose. Most amount to moving trust from one place to another, or breaking trust into a few parts. Trust is always required, efficiency is always required, resources are always required. These things all converge as order in chaos. That order is centralization.

I'm not a part of the "decentralize everything!" parade, but I do believe in the concept of "empires to ashes". Eventually a thing becomes so central and powerful it collapses, whether it be by its own lack of agility, or by a paradigm shift. For many people, Bitcoin is the first time they experienced a paradigm shift in a very long time. It's exciting to have your world rocked, but Bitcoin is not a casting call for paradigm-shifters. Way too many people think we now have the power to break apart anything we can get our hands on, and turn into little pieces that somehow work better. Decentralization is not your hammer, and stock exchanges are not your nail.

I can appreciate people trying new things, but an economy is more than protocol, sorry. I'm not saying the theory of a Colored Coin exchange is impossible, I'm saying the usefulness of it is. Any fruits of Colored Coin, Master Coin, etc, will do nothing more than appear decentralized in concept, and behave centralized in practice.

Even Bitcoin itself only thrives through where it is efficiently "centralized": mining pools, exchanges, venture capital, this forum, etc, etc, etc.

Having to trust 3 people instead of 1 is not decentralization. Having to trust that system instead of this one, is not decentralization. Do you REALLY want every business under the sun "IPO"ing? Is every random business truly qualified to run its own security? So what if you can trust the decentralized exchange, none of the issuers will be easy to trust, now will they? How do you trust what you are buying and whom you buy it from?

If you really want to mitigate trust issues in this world, why aren't you all fighting to get people to use a/the Web of Trust (http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php)? Why are people finding ways to pervert bitcoin with burns, when they should be making a decentralized web of trust that is more friendly and easy to use? Doesn't anyone realize how big "digital identity" will be going forward?

We don't need more tinkering with reinventing Bitcoin, we need an agile identity/trust service. Think about it. Sure we have the current WoT, sure we have +Trust in this forum. But the WoT is not easy to use for beginners, nor is it a convenient means of auth/trust for online services. And, the forum's +Trust feature is much too centralized, weak, and narrow in focus.

Finally, everyone, please don't be an idiot and go "burning" coins, or locking them into some silly meta protocol forever. Anyone that's been around for more than a couple months should know by now to just hold onto your damn bitcoins. That's all you have to do.

Wow. Sb. with brains and balls to speak up. Thanks TAT. Made my day.
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February 04, 2014, 12:33:01 AM
 #16892

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

In case any of you missed it in my old rants, I don't actually believe decentralized exchanges are a good thing. Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

I don't even believe decentralized exchanges are sustainable in any way that provides valuable purpose. Most amount to moving trust from one place to another, or breaking trust into a few parts. Trust is always required, efficiency is always required, resources are always required. These things all converge as order in chaos. That order is centralization.

I'm not a part of the "decentralize everything!" parade, but I do believe in the concept of "empires to ashes". Eventually a thing becomes so central and powerful it collapses, whether it be by its own lack of agility, or by a paradigm shift. For many people, Bitcoin is the first time they experienced a paradigm shift in a very long time. It's exciting to have your world rocked, but Bitcoin is not a casting call for paradigm-shifters. Way too many people think we now have the power to break apart anything we can get our hands on, and turn into little pieces that somehow work better. Decentralization is not your hammer, and stock exchanges are not your nail.

I can appreciate people trying new things, but an economy is more than protocol, sorry. I'm not saying the theory of a Colored Coin exchange is impossible, I'm saying the usefulness of it is. Any fruits of Colored Coin, Master Coin, etc, will do nothing more than appear decentralized in concept, and behave centralized in practice.

Even Bitcoin itself only thrives through where it is efficiently "centralized": mining pools, exchanges, venture capital, this forum, etc, etc, etc.

Having to trust 3 people instead of 1 is not decentralization. Having to trust that system instead of this one, is not decentralization. Do you REALLY want every business under the sun "IPO"ing? Is every random business truly qualified to run its own security? So what if you can trust the decentralized exchange, none of the issuers will be easy to trust, now will they? How do you trust what you are buying and whom you buy it from?

If you really want to mitigate trust issues in this world, why aren't you all fighting to get people to use a/the Web of Trust (http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php)? Why are people finding ways to pervert bitcoin with burns, when they should be making a decentralized web of trust that is more friendly and easy to use? Doesn't anyone realize how big "digital identity" will be going forward?

We don't need more tinkering with reinventing Bitcoin, we need an agile identity/trust service. Think about it. Sure we have the current WoT, sure we have +Trust in this forum. But the WoT is not easy to use for beginners, nor is it a convenient means of auth/trust for online services. And, the forum's +Trust feature is much too centralized, weak, and narrow in focus.

Finally, everyone, please don't be an idiot and go "burning" coins, or locking them into some silly meta protocol forever. Anyone that's been around for more than a couple months should know by now to just hold onto your damn bitcoins. That's all you have to do.

I agree that for trading purposes something like colored coins would be a huge hassle and require escrow.

But it would be extremely useful if we could send shares to and from an exchange with ease just like withdrawing bitcoins.
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February 04, 2014, 12:37:24 AM
 #16893

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

In case any of you missed it in my old rants, I don't actually believe decentralized exchanges are a good thing. Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

I don't even believe decentralized exchanges are sustainable in any way that provides valuable purpose. Most amount to moving trust from one place to another, or breaking trust into a few parts. Trust is always required, efficiency is always required, resources are always required. These things all converge as order in chaos. That order is centralization.

I'm not a part of the "decentralize everything!" parade, but I do believe in the concept of "empires to ashes". Eventually a thing becomes so central and powerful it collapses, whether it be by its own lack of agility, or by a paradigm shift. For many people, Bitcoin is the first time they experienced a paradigm shift in a very long time. It's exciting to have your world rocked, but Bitcoin is not a casting call for paradigm-shifters. Way too many people think we now have the power to break apart anything we can get our hands on, and turn into little pieces that somehow work better. Decentralization is not your hammer, and stock exchanges are not your nail.

I can appreciate people trying new things, but an economy is more than protocol, sorry. I'm not saying the theory of a Colored Coin exchange is impossible, I'm saying the usefulness of it is. Any fruits of Colored Coin, Master Coin, etc, will do nothing more than appear decentralized in concept, and behave centralized in practice.

Even Bitcoin itself only thrives through where it is efficiently "centralized": mining pools, exchanges, venture capital, this forum, etc, etc, etc.

Having to trust 3 people instead of 1 is not decentralization. Having to trust that system instead of this one, is not decentralization. Do you REALLY want every business under the sun "IPO"ing? Is every random business truly qualified to run its own security? So what if you can trust the decentralized exchange, none of the issuers will be easy to trust, now will they? How do you trust what you are buying and whom you buy it from?

If you really want to mitigate trust issues in this world, why aren't you all fighting to get people to use a/the Web of Trust (http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php)? Why are people finding ways to pervert bitcoin with burns, when they should be making a decentralized web of trust that is more friendly and easy to use? Doesn't anyone realize how big "digital identity" will be going forward?

We don't need more tinkering with reinventing Bitcoin, we need an agile identity/trust service. Think about it. Sure we have the current WoT, sure we have +Trust in this forum. But the WoT is not easy to use for beginners, nor is it a convenient means of auth/trust for online services. And, the forum's +Trust feature is much too centralized, weak, and narrow in focus.

Finally, everyone, please don't be an idiot and go "burning" coins, or locking them into some silly meta protocol forever. Anyone that's been around for more than a couple months should know by now to just hold onto your damn bitcoins. That's all you have to do.

I agree that for trading purposes something like colored coins would be a huge hassle and require escrow.

But it would be extremely useful if we could send shares to and from an exchange with ease just like withdrawing bitcoins.

Nobody cares about your opinion. You have proven to be not to be taken seriously many times. Please leave this thread for the adults, kiddo.
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February 04, 2014, 12:37:35 AM
 #16894


I agree that for trading purposes something like colored coins would be a huge hassle and require escrow.

But it would be extremely useful if we could send shares to and from an exchange with ease just like withdrawing bitcoins.

The future will be free of trusted escrow services,
Chris Odom describes how it will work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teNzIFu5L70


Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
BitThink
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February 04, 2014, 01:29:55 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2014, 01:46:35 AM by BitThink
 #16895

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

In case any of you missed it in my old rants, I don't actually believe decentralized exchanges are a good thing. Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

I don't even believe decentralized exchanges are sustainable in any way that provides valuable purpose. Most amount to moving trust from one place to another, or breaking trust into a few parts. Trust is always required, efficiency is always required, resources are always required. These things all converge as order in chaos. That order is centralization.

I'm not a part of the "decentralize everything!" parade, but I do believe in the concept of "empires to ashes". Eventually a thing becomes so central and powerful it collapses, whether it be by its own lack of agility, or by a paradigm shift. For many people, Bitcoin is the first time they experienced a paradigm shift in a very long time. It's exciting to have your world rocked, but Bitcoin is not a casting call for paradigm-shifters. Way too many people think we now have the power to break apart anything we can get our hands on, and turn into little pieces that somehow work better. Decentralization is not your hammer, and stock exchanges are not your nail.

I can appreciate people trying new things, but an economy is more than protocol, sorry. I'm not saying the theory of a Colored Coin exchange is impossible, I'm saying the usefulness of it is. Any fruits of Colored Coin, Master Coin, etc, will do nothing more than appear decentralized in concept, and behave centralized in practice.

Even Bitcoin itself only thrives through where it is efficiently "centralized": mining pools, exchanges, venture capital, this forum, etc, etc, etc.

Having to trust 3 people instead of 1 is not decentralization. Having to trust that system instead of this one, is not decentralization. Do you REALLY want every business under the sun "IPO"ing? Is every random business truly qualified to run its own security? So what if you can trust the decentralized exchange, none of the issuers will be easy to trust, now will they? How do you trust what you are buying and whom you buy it from?

If you really want to mitigate trust issues in this world, why aren't you all fighting to get people to use a/the Web of Trust (http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php)? Why are people finding ways to pervert bitcoin with burns, when they should be making a decentralized web of trust that is more friendly and easy to use? Doesn't anyone realize how big "digital identity" will be going forward?

We don't need more tinkering with reinventing Bitcoin, we need an agile identity/trust service. Think about it. Sure we have the current WoT, sure we have +Trust in this forum. But the WoT is not easy to use for beginners, nor is it a convenient means of auth/trust for online services. And, the forum's +Trust feature is much too centralized, weak, and narrow in focus.

Finally, everyone, please don't be an idiot and go "burning" coins, or locking them into some silly meta protocol forever. Anyone that's been around for more than a couple months should know by now to just hold onto your damn bitcoins. That's all you have to do.
Your reasons (if any) seem not so convincing to me. Let's put general case aside, and just focus on AM shares. If AM is listed on a decentralized exchange such as Counterparty, is it helpful?

1) trust. We just need to trust a) the issurer (of course we trust) b) the protocol and the client (it's open source). No need to trust any buyer/seller or operator. The trades and dividends are all guaranteed by the protocol. There's no one running the exchange. The system is there as long as everyone has the client and BTC blockchain is there.

2) convenience. The issurer just issue an asset and put an initial order with IPO price, then sending dividend is just one command. For existing stocks like AM, just transfer shares to existing holders with a simple script. No need to keep all the holder list, it's embedded in the blockchain and will never be lost.

3) latency. Yes, you may need 10 minutes to match an order and waiting longer to confirm. That's acceptable to most investors, even day traders. How many people flip more than once per hour?

At last, as a main fund manager, telling others to just hold bitcoins seems interesting. If everyone just holds the bitcoin, there will be no stocks, funds, and bonds. What's the difference between burning some bitcoin to get some shares of a decentralized exchange and sending some BTC to you to get some shares of certain stocks?
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February 04, 2014, 01:48:26 AM
 #16896

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.
No, TAT is running a pass through and his profit relies on the commission. Listing on a decentralized exchange removes any need for the middle man, so it just needs Friedcat and all the investors.
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February 04, 2014, 01:49:25 AM
 #16897

AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.

This is true.  It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty.

Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task?

This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange.  One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities.

Did you read this bit?

Counterparty Announcement

The code being released here is alpha-quality and under heavy development. Expect to encounter major bugs, including loss of funds. (Please report them when you do!)

The Counterparty protocol has not yet been finalized! You may lose your money if it changes!



Yes, you are right. We still need to wait until it matures and passes more extensive tests.
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February 04, 2014, 01:53:47 AM
 #16898

Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

Wait a second... besides announcing that he was working on one, I have yet to see any details on any AM exchange system.  Although you feel it would not work, what is it that FC has in the works?  Is this board member information?  Or did I miss a post somewhere...

Also.. to ignore jimmothy, simply ignore him.  Stop quoting his posts, it gives him visibility to those who already have him on ignore like myself.

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February 04, 2014, 02:04:44 AM
 #16899

Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

Wait a second... besides announcing that he was working on one, I have yet to see any details on any AM exchange system.  Although you feel it would not work, what is it that FC has in the works?  Is this board member information?  Or did I miss a post somewhere...

Also.. to ignore jimmothy, simply ignore him.  Stop quoting his posts, it gives him visibility to those who already have him on ignore like myself.

Done. My bad to quote a donkey. Smiley
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February 04, 2014, 02:05:54 AM
 #16900

Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway.

Wait a second... besides announcing that he was working on one, I have yet to see any details on any AM exchange system.  Although you feel it would not work, what is it that FC has in the works?  Is this board member information?  Or did I miss a post somewhere...

Also.. to ignore jimmothy, simply ignore him.  Stop quoting his posts, it gives him visibility to those who already have him on ignore like myself.
According to the leaked info (it they are true) in chinese forum, AM's exchange, although based on blockchain, is centralized and has severe flaws in the design.

For example, all the assets have to be assigned a buying address and a selling address, and these addresses are assigned by the central authority. Moreover, if you want to sell some shares at 100 BTC, you need to send 100+ BTC to the selling address and trust that address will send them back immediately. It also means you have to own 100 BTC first before you can sell you shares for 100 BTC.
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