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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3888254 times)
helixone
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March 28, 2013, 05:17:33 PM
 #2701

newbie question: if i want to buy some shares i see both bitfunder and btctco got them, any ups and down to buying on either? or anywhere else?

what happens if one of the exchanges pull a quick one and disappear, do i still have the stocks linked to my btc address or email?

sorry if this has been answered already.

Ignoring all the noise, I will give you my best take on your question.

Currently you have two ways to get REAL ASICMINER shares.

1) Buy them OTC (Over the counter) in IRC or on the bitcointalk discussion forums. If you aren't familiar with WOT (Web of trust) and what not, this perhaps has real risk, as if you send funds to an unknown party and they abscond with them you have no recourse. The benefits are you don't have to worry about one of the exchanges running into issues. (Bearing in mind that if you share your contact info with the passthrough issuer, there are likely remediations if the exchange runs into difficulty.)

2) Buying through one of the two passthroughs. (I assume you by know what a PT is). These were created to provide the benefits of trading on an exchange, since the actual shares can not be. (Automatic order execution, small orders allowed, options writing, not having to deal with individuals that may or may not be trying to rip you off, etc.) Both passthroughs allow you to buy PT shares, and exchange them for real shares at no cost. (Bitfunder traded G-ASICMINER-PT (DeaDTerra) requires a minimum of 250 shares to transfer out, but btct.co traded ASICMINER-PT (burnside) only requires a minimum transaction of 50 shares, which pretty much matches the minimum OTC trades you will find. (People discourage smaller quantity OTC trades so as not to harass Friedcat with too many trivial requests.)

Personally I have traded both via passthroughs and OTC. I prefer using an exchange, so do most of my trading on BOTH of the exchanges (using both passthroughs). They are both solid. Considering that seemingly overnight almost 15% (and growing) of all outstanding ASICMINER shares have made their way onto the passthroughs, I'd say that many other shareholders agree that the convenience of keeping shares in an exchange outweighs the perceived risks. (Remember there are also risks of buying directly from people in IRC and on bitcointalk.)

Since these exchanges trade multiple securities, and not just ASICMINER, I am a bit more comfortable dealing with them. As always, use secure (long) passwords and 2fa (2-factor authentication) where you can.

-helixone

P.S. - If you decide to go with one of the two passthroughs, feel free to PM me, and I can share the differences I have discovered.
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March 28, 2013, 06:00:50 PM
 #2702

btct.co traded ASICMINER-PT (burnside) only requires a minimum transaction of 50 shares, which pretty much matches the minimum OTC trades you will find.

Are you sure its 50, because burnside stated "no minimum shares" in the thread some posts above. Of cours 50 was the minimum amount at the orderbook thread too, so it would be possible to use the pt instead the now closed thread.

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March 28, 2013, 06:20:13 PM
 #2703

Selling ASICs will also help alleviate the community's fears of ASICMINER having too much hashing power. So this is also good for the health of the network.

Interesting months ahead...

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March 28, 2013, 06:37:22 PM
 #2704

Maybe when the auction start the actual machine can be linked to a new account at btcguild. With a name something like "Asicminer auction 1" or so. This way the buyer can see that the machine is already working and can be shipped as soon as he bought it. Plus it would work as an advertisement. And as soon as the buyer bought it the machine is shipped. So that the machine doesnt have to stand there too long and block power supply.
Im interested to see the first auction start. Smiley

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March 28, 2013, 07:03:41 PM
 #2705

Update

Clarification of Unsold Shares
Now ASICMINER controls 163,962/400,000 of the whole identity, while Bitfountain controls 236,038/400,000. The former shares will not be diluted, while the latter will. Whenever we need to sell shares to raise funds or giving potential core employees shares/options, only our (Bitfountain's) shares will be reduced.

We consider it to be very fair to investors, because while either letting the investors break even first or protecting the investors from dilution are seen everywhere, having both at the same time is not that common, especially when the portion at the investors' side is already large.

As an answer to:
Nevertheless, bitfountain has to decide how they want to handle the issue.

So expect the distribution key to be 164k:236k, and in future 1/163,962 over 41% of all dividend payments for each share. So this is in effect a 5% reduction in dividend payments for ASICMINER shareholders as expected per contract (where 50% would go to ASICMINER). However, this comes with the insurance of no further dilution, which I consider priceless, and for that reason I approve. Also 1/163,962 of 41% is equivalent to 1/200,000 of 50%, so it's not unexpected based on the contract if all shares had sold. (you can see where the fuzziness came from)

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
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lduck
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March 28, 2013, 07:15:32 PM
 #2706

Maybe when the auction start the actual machine can be linked to a new account at btcguild. With a name something like "Asicminer auction 1" or so. This way the buyer can see that the machine is already working and can be shipped as soon as he bought it. Plus it would work as an advertisement. And as soon as the buyer bought it the machine is shipped. So that the machine doesnt have to stand there too long and block power supply.
Im interested to see the first auction start. Smiley
Nice. No such thing as dead stock plus it gives them a thorough testing.
yes, and it would also work as advertisement to the auction. so maybe isn't bad idea to create accounts on few other pools with names that would advert the auction few days before it begins.

and I think that good think would be to sell boards/units with different hash speed. that would be great for people that would like to start with mining. I think that they would prefer to buy new ASCI board instead of FPGA board, but also would like something not so expensive for the first try. -or simply the do not have so much money. and If power requirements are not exotic, units without power module could also be available. I'm not saying to have units like this from prepared for this auction, but in the long run we should not target just on big and expensive units. targeting and selling to mining beginners and "broke students" could earn some money too.
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March 28, 2013, 07:32:49 PM
 #2707

Update

Clarification of Unsold Shares
Now ASICMINER controls 163,962/400,000 of the whole identity, while Bitfountain controls 236,038/400,000. The former shares will not be diluted, while the latter will. Whenever we need to sell shares to raise funds or giving potential core employees shares/options, only our (Bitfountain's) shares will be reduced.

We consider it to be very fair to investors, because while either letting the investors break even first or protecting the investors from dilution are seen everywhere, having both at the same time is not that common, especially when the portion at the investors' side is already large.

As an answer to:
Nevertheless, bitfountain has to decide how they want to handle the issue.

So expect the distribution key to be 164k:236k, and in future 1/163,962 over 41% of all dividend payments for each share. So this is in effect a 5% reduction in dividend payments for ASICMINER shareholders as expected per contract (where 50% would go to ASICMINER). However, this comes with the insurance of no further dilution, which I consider priceless, and for that reason I approve. Also 1/163,962 of 41% is equivalent to 1/200,000 of 50%, so it's not unexpected based on the contract if all shares had sold. (you can see where the fuzziness came from)

Seems reasonable. But what happend to dividends of unsold shares? Have unsold shares receive dividends? If not, IPO shares received 1/163962 of mining profits each and not 1/200000 (until IPO break-even). If unsold shares received dividends, however, they shouldnt have been entitled to IPO break-even privileges, because nobody actually invested. In either case there are contradictions of what has been stated here.

Please clarify this. Maybe i just dont get it...
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March 28, 2013, 09:51:22 PM
 #2708

So expect the distribution key to be 164k:236k, and in future 1/163,962 over 41% of all dividend payments for each share. So this is in effect a 5% reduction in dividend payments for ASICMINER shareholders as expected per contract (where 50% would go to ASICMINER). However, this comes with the insurance of no further dilution, which I consider priceless, and for that reason I approve. Also 1/163,962 of 41% is equivalent to 1/200,000 of 50%, so it's not unexpected based on the contract if all shares had sold. (you can see where the fuzziness came from)

I think its fair in the way that if all shares had been sold we would still earn the same dividend as we earn now. But they werent sold and still asicminer was able to launch. It could have happen that nothing could run at that time and the whole project stopped. So i think its ok when bitfountain and their owners get some extra now. Of course i would like to see this being compensated by more hashingpower mining in the net... *g*
There are less dividends paid out to shareholders, but there are also less shares floated. So really no difference in your dividends payments compared to full 200k sold.
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March 29, 2013, 01:04:18 AM
 #2709

wow, ASICMINER is rallying hard on all the PTs!  0.898 hit on bitfunder Shocked

(BFL)^2 < 0
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March 29, 2013, 01:15:03 AM
 #2710

wow, ASICMINER is rallying hard on all the PTs!  0.898 hit on bitfunder Shocked

Yeah, I wish I had the coins to pick up more at the other auction threads!!!!

Let's hope the deployment can complete soon ~~~

Part of my day-to-day work is running a data center, if you guys are in Toronto, more than willing to volunteer my time ~~
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March 29, 2013, 01:46:41 AM
 #2711

Part of my day-to-day work is running a data center, if you guys are in Toronto, more than willing to volunteer my time ~~

^This.  AM should have planned out exactly which data centers to deploy at ahead of time.

The data centers should be selected on the basis of cheap power and proximity to their pools' hosts.

Scrambling around building their own is a big loss of time and focus from their core competency of designing, producing, and running ASICs.


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March 29, 2013, 02:11:33 AM
 #2712

Quote
[22:40:07] <toffoo> ;;genrate 6420000
[22:40:09] <gribble> The expected generation output, at 6420000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 6695826.2826, is 482.18990446 BTC per day and 20.0912460192 BTC per hour.

So for example to make a guesstimate of weekly dividends per ASICMINER share going forward (assuming current hash power and constant difficulty) would something like this be reasonable/correct?

((482.18990446 BTC * 7) - x) / 400,000 = y

where x is whatever amount of bitcoins retained to pay expenses, rent, electricity, salaries, etc.

of which ASICMINER shareholders will receive 163,962 * y total bitcoins and Bitfountain 236,038 * y

Or am I misunderstanding something?

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March 29, 2013, 02:18:03 AM
 #2713

Part of my day-to-day work is running a data center, if you guys are in Toronto, more than willing to volunteer my time ~~

^This.  AM should have planned out exactly which data centers to deploy at ahead of time.

The data centers should be selected on the basis of cheap power and proximity to their pools' hosts.

Scrambling around building their own is a big loss of time and focus from their core competency of designing, producing, and running ASICs.

Quite surprised as to the degree of difficulty of deploying the machines that AM is facing.  The networking issue is a bit surprising.  While there's always room for improvement, I think AM should be given credit for what they have accomplished.

But I really think AM should create its own pool or solo mine, that saves the pool fee - an "easy way" in enhancing shareholder value .  Given the hash power relative to the network, I think it's well worth the variance.
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March 29, 2013, 02:29:25 AM
 #2714

btct.co traded ASICMINER-PT (burnside) only requires a minimum transaction of 50 shares, which pretty much matches the minimum OTC trades you will find.

Are you sure its 50, because burnside stated "no minimum shares" in the thread some posts above. Of cours 50 was the minimum amount at the orderbook thread too, so it would be possible to use the pt instead the now closed thread.

No minimum.

The contract states that fees will be waived for transfers over 50 shares.  I've committed to waiving all fees for the first 90 days, so effectively, no minimum, and no fees for now.  We have processed requests for transfers as low as 7 shares.

helixone had also sent out information via PM to some that requested it stating that there is a 5% fee on divs.  Most of his content is very insightful/helpful but regarding the divs he was incorrect.

The fee is waived the first 90 days, and is scaled based on how many shares are being managed.  Right now the fee would be 1%.  Once we hit 10k shares being managed by the fund the fee will drop again to 0.5%.  The fees are necessary to cover time spent operating the fund.  Our initial fee structure was modeled after DeaDTerra's BitFunder & BTCT passthrough's at the time.  (S.DICE, GSDPT, etc.)  We got slightly blindsided by the free offer from BitFunder, but that's what happens when you're first to market.  The other guys get to learn/adjust.

Dirt seems to fly all over the place regarding btct.co.  I spend a lot of time setting misconceptions straight.  It doesn't really surprise me much, this is bitcoin after all.   Wink   

Cheers.
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March 29, 2013, 02:36:34 AM
 #2715

Quite surprised as to the degree of difficulty of deploying the machines that AM is facing.  The networking issue is a bit surprising.  While there's always room for improvement, I think AM should be given credit for what they have accomplished.

But I really think AM should create its own pool or solo mine, that saves the pool fee - an "easy way" in enhancing shareholder value .  Given the hash power relative to the network, I think it's well worth the variance.

Stratum should let them run all 50TH over a 2400 modem.

Making a pool is not AM's core competence any more than data centers.  Let the specialists handle those things; farm them out.

Better to advertise by taking the top spots on the top pools.  Plus the community likes the transparency of using third party pools.



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March 29, 2013, 02:45:22 AM
 #2716

Clarification of Unsold Shares
Now ASICMINER controls 163,962/400,000 of the whole identity, while Bitfountain controls 236,038/400,000.

I was under the impression that 50% of all profits were to be distributed to the investors and the other half to the Bitfountain founders. Now it's become roughly 41% for investors and 59% for BF because you stopped selling shares early. Did the original contract allow for this?

What if ASICMINER had been fully funded after only 50k shares were sold instead of after 164k, because of a sudden rise in BTC price? Then we'd have 50k/400k = 12.5% share for investors and 350,000/400,000 = 87.5% share for Bitfountain now?

Doesn't look like a fair solution to me. To get back to a 50/50 ratio for investors and founders, as it was originally announced, you'd have to subtract the 36k unallocated shares from the 200k Bitfountain shares instead of adding them. No?
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March 29, 2013, 03:07:15 AM
 #2717

So had a crazy idea. Presuming the reason that Friedcat is looking to sell boards, is because of the lack of power, space, manpower and cooling. Rather than straight selling of the boards at auction, thinking there are probably a number of mining corps that would love to get their hands on the boards. (Especially now that Avalon is hoarding theirs for their own mining operation and BFL looks really really late.)

How insane would it be if Friedcat sold boards at a reasonable markup (less than the maximum he could get) to selected mining operations, in exchange for a percentage of either the mining companies equity, or the coins they mine?

-helixone
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March 29, 2013, 03:15:16 AM
 #2718

newbie question: if i want to buy some shares i see both bitfunder and btctco got them, any ups and down to buying on either? or anywhere else?

what happens if one of the exchanges pull a quick one and disappear, do i still have the stocks linked to my btc address or email?

sorry if this has been answered already.

The shares on the exchanges are passthroughs, so if you buy them you dont have a contract with asicminer, but with the owner of the passthrough. And this owner has a contract with asicminer. Till now i only know that deadterras Passthrough allows it that you can change the pt-shares into real shares once you have 240shares. (or around that number) The thread linked is for selling real asicminer shares.

https://btct.co/security/ASICMINER-PT

- Free transfers in and out with NO MINIMUM share requirement.
- Lower per-transaction fees than the competition.
- Documented dead man's switch (view btct.co/faq while logged in) that works 100% because of how btct.co shares asset lists with it's issuers.  All my co-workers have to do is forward friedcat the latest list that comes into my email.

Hope that helps!

BitFunder has zero per-transaction fees if all you do is buy and no dividend fees, but btct.co has lower fees overall Smiley
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March 29, 2013, 03:17:24 AM
 #2719

Part of my day-to-day work is running a data center, if you guys are in Toronto, more than willing to volunteer my time ~~

^This.  AM should have planned out exactly which data centers to deploy at ahead of time.

The data centers should be selected on the basis of cheap power and proximity to their pools' hosts.

Scrambling around building their own is a big loss of time and focus from their core competency of designing, producing, and running ASICs.

Data centers in china are extremely expensive.  It isn't a 1:1 comparison.
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March 29, 2013, 03:31:08 AM
 #2720

Data centers in china are extremely expensive.  It isn't a 1:1 comparison.

All the more reason to start looking for cheap power at data centers outside of China.

Iceland, Canada, Washington, and Nevada all have cheap power.  So do Belarus and Ukraine, from what I hear around here.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
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