Actually I suspect AM may be able to argue that since there is no 'ownership' of the company conferred by owning AM shares, that they did not offer securities. This is obviously muddied by the use of the words IPO, share, securities etc.
Clearly you have not read the legal definition of a security, nor have you been around for very long or you would have known better. There is absolutely zero doubt AM shares are legally securities subject to SEC regulation in so far they are offered to US investors. |
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I really don't know what will come of this, even how the SEC could enforce anything if operators work and reside out of country? Wouldn't their only option to be to ban U.S. citizens from trading on such services? I don't know enough about these areas of international and business law. They certainly wouldnt ban users (/investors) from using those services. Interestingly its not all illegal to buy unregistered securities, its the selling and promoting thats the issue. As for what they can do; typically the sec would demand the seller stop promoting its products to US investors and demand they implement reasonable safeguards to make sure they do not sell to US nationals. Failing to do so may lead to prosecution, it may prompt them to contact their (in this case) Chinese counterparts. I dont know how chinese authorities look up on this, nor am I at all familiar with chinese security regulations, but considering their crackdown on bitcoin exchanges, this might be a more scary prospect than the SEC. |
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I am coming to the conclusion that most "Put you Bitcoin to work" businesses on the internet are scams. No shit. Bitcoins cant be created from debt. Unlike the fiat world, a growing bitcoin economy doesnt create more coins, only mining creates more coins at a fixed rate. Therefore its impossible to expect a % profit from investing your bitcoins, as for every coin you win someone else has to lose one. Where does the loss come from? Not from my cold wallet, thats for sure. Bitcoin is a commodity, not unlike gold. How often have you seen an advertisement "Put your gold to work, earn x% per day for depositing gold with us" ? Your investment is the bitcoins themselves. |
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Well, I guess I don't know much. What do you know about it?
I dont have facts or inside info either, but its a very safe bet its registered in Panama not because the operators have Panamese nationality or residence, but because its dead easy to register a PO box company there and evade regulation/taxation/etc. |
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What about Havelock/Panama? I'm unfamiliar with the relationship between Panamanian government and US regulatory agencies. Do you really believe the people running Havelock reside in Panama? |
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Correct, but highly unlikely China will assist the SEC in any action, making any action impossible. Far more likely, the SEC will concentrate its efforts elsewhere.
Agreed, but they dont have to assist the SEC if we assume they ID-ed friedcat. Is friedcat willing to be charged and prosecuted in the US, even if his government will never extradite him? Fun prospect for a young entrepreneur to never be able to travel to the US. And for that matter, I have no idea if what he is doing is at all legal under Chinese law. Somehow I would be surprised securities would be less regulated in China than in the west. Whether or not Chinese authorities care, who knows, but they do seem to care a lot about bitcoin exchanges.. |
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AM is in China, SEC is an American thing. The SEC has no jurisdiction beyond the States.
You must be new here  I cant believe how often that BS has been posted and debunked, yet keeps being sprouted. AM is selling unregistered securities to (unsophisticated) US investors, and therefore subject to SEC regulation, no matter where they are located. Same goes for EU regulations and investors, Japanese, and basically.. everywhere else. And so Id say yes, its highly likely AM was among the targeted companies offering securities on directly on bitcointalk: http://cointelegraph.com/news/112811/us-regulators-one-two-punch-sec-probes-crowdsales-fincen-takes-aim-at-exchanges
The letters are being sent out to companies performing offerings on Counterparty, Cryptostocks, companies hosting offerings with colored coins, and companies who have performed unregistered securities offerings via Bitcoin Talk. In all cases, the SEC is employing a team of researchers to track down the people or companies behind each offering via forum messages, domain registration information, transfers of funds via exchanges and other means. |
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Havelock is "based" in Panama
ScamX is based in Belgium (I should pay them a visit!)
Do they do business in the US market? BTW, regarding "(I should pay them a visit!)". Not much to see there, seems like all the hardware is in the republic of Georgia in a bitfury datacenter. But maybe Bert can show you an electric bicycle. |
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Well, there's AMHash2 thru AMHash 5, offered at a potentially higher initial price.
Higher? You mean higher than you are ? You may want to check how few have sold so far. |
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10 satoshi, new record! 2014-10-28 2014-10-28 0.00000010
2014-10-27 2014-10-27 0.00000195
2014-10-26 2014-10-26 big fat zero
2014-10-25 2014-10-25 0.00000256
2014-10-24 2014-10-24 0.00000522 BTW, hilarious, Cryptx collects 10.7 BTC in fees and pays out 0.12 BTC. IOW, he is pocketing ~99% of the gross mining revenue. As someone else would say "keep calm & collect dividends!" ROFL. For as long as it takes anyway. Or does anyone really believe Havelock and Cryptx didnt receive this letter: http://cointelegraph.com/news/112811/us-regulators-one-two-punch-sec-probes-crowdsales-fincen-takes-aim-at-exchanges |
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But but but but.. what about.. "because bitcoin" ?
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How much does AM profit from this deal anyway? For every GH sold on havelock, how much does AM get ?
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In the past year we've literally seen a 100x increase in network speed. We wont be seeing anything like that ever again, but neither are we anywhere close to a ceiling at todays btc exchange rate. Bitfury recently announced they secured funds to expand their mine to 100MW. With their current chips, that means a few 100PH. With the 0.2J/GH they claim for their 28nm chip by the end of this year (0.1J/GH next year), that means ~500PH and possibly ~1EH next year. Thats BF alone. KnC have said they will gun for 20% of the network, up from <4%. In the past 24 hr they appear to have doubled their hashrate, so I guess thats starting. Then there is AM sitting on a huge pile of chips that will find their way to the network one way or another, Spondoolies 28nm, etc. I posted this chart over a year ago:  and got mostly ridiculed both for the conclusions and the assumptions, which turned out to be pretty darn accurate (considering the >100x increase it predicted). But to predict the next few years, they are outdated given that efficiency will likely be 3-5x better than that, and price per GH will drop below $0.2/GH according to at least spondoolies. So lets see what happens then:  If you pick a conservative electricity cost $8c/KwH and double BF and SP most optimistic efficiency projections from 0.1J/GH to 0.2, you end up somewhere around 1700PH. If you expect bitcoin to rise in value, you can increase those numbers proportionally. |
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This suggests (to me) that SEC/courts intentionally use a very loose definition of money when defining a security to avoid loopholes.
If you read the actual definitions in the security act of 1933, you will see they use the term "for value" in the definition of a sale. The word "money" isnt even there, let alone dollar. So it doesnt matter if you sell your investment instrument for, or denominate it in dollar, gold, barrels of oil or bitcoin, as long as it has value. As for the definition of a security, to say its broad is an understatement: The term “security” means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing. |
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You are claiming that you are taking coins from people, sending them to exchanges, trading with them, and then sending the profits back.
You could go part of the way to showing that this was true if there was a public ledger showing all of the transactions.
One of his accomplices inadvertently did that already. have a look here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=835706.msg9339047#msg9339047.22 BTC deposited in to this address: https://blockchain.info/address/15BfzBttWvmYq2eSK7Yt9RxYDSWBaWv9nEWhich where then siphoned to here: https://blockchain.info/address/1HEt984iQ93snJVQWqrD2qu8aANah588esAnd remained untouched ever since. Im sure our scammer will start mixing those coins upon reading this post, but he hasnt done anything with it for the past 3 weeks, yet somehow made 7% profit on it. BTW, I assume the two 0.01BTC shares runek1 owns, for which there are no matching deposits, is his affiliate link loot. All that trouble, all those lies and all that guilt for ~$7 that he probably wont even be able to withdraw. |
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Where is your 5 % a month offer. Got some cold feet?!
ROFL, indeed he removed it. Not that I believe the lottery is in fact legal without licensing, or for that matter the "Deej Pool" |
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Hmm you say you filed, where's the copy of your complaint?
Why would I provide you a copy? Its been filed and I got a case number TCR1414400659xxx If you prefer to think I didnt file, thats fine by me. |
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