I have hurt no one. If you've been hurt by bitcoin, in whatever fashion, you seriously need to re-examine your life and reassess your priorities. Putting yourself in a position where you can be hurt by an experimental currency and bleeding edge technology is not just stupid, it's completely irresponsible and you shouldn't be allowed near a computer, much less money. On top of that, the timeline for the ASICs was set and announced long, long before I came on board. As I've said, again in countless places, going forward if I have any say in the situation, BFL will not be announcing timelines beyond "When it's ready." This is a lie. Surely as Bitcoin is the cause of you having customers and clientele, can the act of not holding up to your promises cause the same amount of loss in others. If I had invested with bitcoin instead of your machines to mine them (2x singles), I could have potentially made $80,000. I would have been married by now. :| Do you think your machines will make me that money? Until they do I will always be remembering how you "bait and switched" me. Not trolling but gotta ask. When they failed to deliver the first time, you could have asked for a refund, put all that into BT which was still like 11 bucks and made all this awesome profit. See how hindsight works in other ways? Life lesson dont take money you cant afford to lose (needed for a weddding) and put it into RISKY propositions. The hindsight was not about the price of Bitcoin. Everyone who bought BFL was betting on the price of Bitcoin going up. The hindsight was about BFL lying to him over and over about their prospects for shipping. He is only recently able to discern these misrepresentations, and even now BFL is saying that they will ship him his product soon. Oh and Minternj is probably Inaba. A recently registered account with practically every one of its posts in BFL threads, all of them supporting BFL, and calling everyone trolls and "its the same group of trolls". When he gets pissed off, you see the similarity. |
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I'm not talking about mining hardware discussion. Google "Bitcoin mining" ... Bitcointalk is at the bottom of the third page. Which is also known as "Might as well not be listed" page.
If someone does manage to find their way here, they quickly leave due to all the drama and trolls. Most people who still post here are so saturated with this community they don't realize how tiny and insulated it is. Bitcointalk posters encompass less than 10% of the current mining population, on a per person basis. Why do you think all the hardware vendors basically stay the hell away from here? Avalon makes a post and then leaves for weeks at a time. bASIC finally gave up and made their own forums before their implosion. Scams galore in the hardware section. The lack of any meaningful moderation pretty much chases everyone away and no serious business would participate in Bitcointalk. I do it on my own time and at my own whim. I don't speak officially for BFL here and BFL has no desire to participate in the Custom Hardware section unless it's properly moderated and cleaned up, which seems unlikely to happen.
Seriously, it's the same people posting over and over for the vast majority of the posts. Those people already have their camps and no one is going to change their minds, so who cares? There's so much misinformation and BS posted here, it's impossible to find the signal in all the noise, so it's pointless to try to conduct business here.
If you open an icognito window in chrome and Google "bitcoin mining forum" bitcointalk.org is the number 1 listing. I guess Google thinks this is the place where bitcoin mining is discussed.  |
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Right now, you are the face (some might say ass) of BFL on these boards. If you actually want to protect and grow your business, then you should hire an real PR person. If you have no business to protect, well then I guess you might as well just rage on. Whoa... I see where the communication breakdown is. You think Bitcointalk is still relevant to mining hardware. Heh. How... quaint. I see where you get your nick, now. No, my mistake was thinking BFL was still relevant to mining hardware. 490,000 reasons why they are not can be found in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181982.0 |
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I fixed up one of Inaba's rage posts:
Yep, BFL is late. I've apologized for it numerous times.
If you've been hurt by bitcoin, in whatever fashion, you seriously need to re-examine your life and reassess your priorities. Putting yourself in a position where you can be hurt by an experimental currency and bleeding edge technology is a bad idea. As I've said, again in countless places, going forward if I have any say in the situation, BFL will not be announcing timelines beyond "When it's ready."
to more accurately reflect what a real PR person would have written, instead of what a very insecure man with poor social skills might write. Good thing I'm not a PR man then, huh? Oh... one more thing you don't know. That brings the list to... lets see... crap, basically everything. I think everyone who has ever come into contact with you realizes that you have no talent at all in public relations. You don't need to belabor that point. You claim to be the chief operations officer, yet have very little that operates to show for it. Right now, you are the face (some might say ass) of BFL on these boards. If you actually want to protect and grow your business, then you should hire an real PR person. If you have no business to protect, well then I guess you might as well just rage on.  |
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I fixed up one of Inaba's rage posts:
Yep, BFL is late. I've apologized for it numerous times.
If you've been hurt by bitcoin, in whatever fashion, you seriously need to re-examine your life and reassess your priorities. Putting yourself in a position where you can be hurt by an experimental currency and bleeding edge technology is a bad idea. As I've said, again in countless places, going forward if I have any say in the situation, BFL will not be announcing timelines beyond "When it's ready."
to more accurately reflect what a real PR person would have written, instead of what a very insecure man with poor social skills might write. |
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This argument is beyond retarded. It's the same trolls over and over (I'm looking to you, Smoothie). It's not BFL's fault that people didn't choose to invest in bitcoin instead of a pre-order of an ASIC miner. Nobody had any knowledge, let alone a guarantee that the bitcoin exchange rate was going to rocket off like it did in such a short amount of time. Some people bet wrong, and didn't make as much money. boo hoo.
The same argument can be made on ANY investment, with the benefit of hindsight. "Well, if you'd just bet on the winning team, you wouldn't have lost the bet. So clearly the losing team owes the bettor some winnings!" Um. no.
Give it a rest, people. If you don't want a BFL, don't buy one. If you missed the boat then go cry a river. Trolling the forums with every possible contrived little complaint you can dig up just demonstrates that you're a whiny bitch with an ax to grind...
This is what people with no real argument post. They piss and moan and beg you to stop posting. Wrenchmonkey didn't read the earlier posts talking about how the current exchange rate does not matter in calculating the BTC lost by betting on BFL. Why would he read them? He has nothing to offer this forum except to go down on his knees and beg everyone to stop bashing BFL. You don't need to read posts to do that. The number of coins "lost" by betting on BFL is irrelevant. You could have turned that money into billions, if you'd been able to read the future. Again, it's just the same as saying after the end of a game, or a boxing match "Man, the loser of that game totally cost you, like, a million dollars, dude! If you'd gone out and bet all your money on the WINNING team, you could've been rich by now!" It takes a special kind of stupid to use hindsight in your argument. And no, I'm not begging anybody to stop posting. Where did I beg anybody to stop posting? I'm just pointing out that it's always the same trolls, who have nothing better to do than cry about BFL. You're OBSESSED. It's unhealthy. Get a hobby, dude. The number of bitcoins lost by betting on BFL is irrelevant? I hope you have fun explaining that to the people who actually lost those coins. You have a bright future as a punching bag. Nobody is using hindsight for what you suggest. We are enumerating the damages caused by BFL's bait and switch. Speaking of the same old cast of characters, you are actually one of about 5 accounts who relentlessly defend BFL against all comers. Inaba of course, and his 2 sockpuppets Erk and MinterJ Kano, who hates Avalon so much that he hitched his wagon to BFL just for spites sake (You can read Kano's marriage proposal to Josh here after Kano was refused a free Avalon https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg1511889#msg1511889) And you. Say you laid a bet on a roulette wheel in a Vegas casino and lost all your money. Later you found out that the roulette table was fixed and you had zero chance of winning, would you argue that you deserved to lose because you had to use hindsight to determine that you had been ripped off? No. Only a "special type of stupid" would make such an argument. Go back to begging, you don't seem quite as pathetic when you are on your knees with tears in your eyes. |
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I read their "fight" thread but my concern is that why would kano make a specific accusation like the one quoted (he did this yesterday) unless he knew something. Is there any way that anyone can know who all the increase in TH/s is coming from? Or could guys like kano have a way to figure out if it is truly from 25,000 GPUs being added in the last month vs. a bunch of asics? That is more my question. Not who was right in the original catfight.
I suggest you look at Kano's post history wrt avalon before batch #1 shipped. It may aid your reasoning on this matter. You can start here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg1511889#msg1511889Kano jumped on the BFL bandwagon because of a falling out he had with Avalon. |
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This argument is beyond retarded. It's the same trolls over and over (I'm looking to you, Smoothie). It's not BFL's fault that people didn't choose to invest in bitcoin instead of a pre-order of an ASIC miner. Nobody had any knowledge, let alone a guarantee that the bitcoin exchange rate was going to rocket off like it did in such a short amount of time. Some people bet wrong, and didn't make as much money. boo hoo.
The same argument can be made on ANY investment, with the benefit of hindsight. "Well, if you'd just bet on the winning team, you wouldn't have lost the bet. So clearly the losing team owes the bettor some winnings!" Um. no.
Give it a rest, people. If you don't want a BFL, don't buy one. If you missed the boat then go cry a river. Trolling the forums with every possible contrived little complaint you can dig up just demonstrates that you're a whiny bitch with an ax to grind...
This is what people with no real argument post. They piss and moan and beg you to stop posting. Wrenchmonkey didn't read the earlier posts talking about how the current exchange rate does not matter in calculating the BTC lost by betting on BFL. Why would he read them? He has nothing to offer this forum except to go down on his knees and beg everyone to stop bashing BFL. You don't need to read posts to do that.  |
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Someone copies the picture from the website and posts they have a unit being delivered then gets paid 200+ bitcoins and tells them to wait for 4 more month?
How do you know they have an order?
How do you know they will deliver it.
They could just move.
Jesus Christ!
There is so much low hanging fruit in these forums that the OP probably had 30 messages in his inbox promising to send BTC. |
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No, the proper translation is: I'm not feeling like arguing with stupid. Check back later, maybe my mood will have changed.
Try understanding the basics of what you're posting before you post, you might get a more comprehensive response. The fact that you have no idea what you're talking about makes it hard to even know where to start.
Right now, the best indicator to me that BFL is both shady and unprofessional is that Inaba is still employed by them. Any real company would have fired their PR monkey for treating customers the way Josh has. So why haven't they fired him? They must need him to be a dick on the forums. What could being belligerent on the forums possible get BFL? It might deflect current pre-order investors from asking too many questions. Why doesn't BFL want their investors asking questions? I don't know. I do know the following: As long as BFL ships just enough devices to avoid being called a scam and damaging the reputation of Bitcoin further, all is good (unless you are a BFL investor). As long as BFL doesn't ship enough devices to affect the network hashrate, all is good (unless you are a BFL investor). |
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I don't see how BFL stopped him from buying 23 BTC at any time, can you please post where BFL forbids people from purchasing BTC once they purchase one of our products, which are sold for USD (Not BTC)?
You can't? Oh, then your argument is fallacious. Nice try at rationalizing a false premise, though. Well, actually, no it's not. It's pretty sophomoric and elementary.
The trolls have shifted their stance from "BFL has never shipped" to people could have done X with their pre-payment money. No we are not trolls. Yes, it is called opportunity cost. It is actually the core of every complaint about BFL. Take a college course or two in economics.
In the real world people can wait for many months for a house to be built with a deposit much larger than the cost of a BFL device, and they are perfectly happy with that, as long as the builder doesn't go bust and they get their house in the end.
A deposit that is usually a very small percentage of the cost of the house. They don't pay the full price of the house upfront (unless they are morons). Nobody is perfectly happy with a late house, in fact everyone who has more than 2 neurons is pissed off because they don't have a house when they should have had a house. Lawyers are usually involved. So are insurance companies. BFL customer service is defended by strawmen and bootlickers. |
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Finally shipping it seems. Hopefully not too fast. Just fast enough to not be a scam but not fast enough to actually affect difficulty.  @minterj If BTC went bust, his Jalapeno would also be worthless. The point is, the owner would already have in hand (23BTC) what the device is supposed to provide over the course of 6 months (assuming conservative rises in difficulty). |
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I passed the same bar that you did. And yes its rude to think your psuedo law knowledge is better than mine. I stayed at a holiday inn express so it makes me an expert. I know that most sales issues are a civil matter. In these cases they want you to resolve before bringing to court. Judges want you to arbitrate before bringing a case to court. If one party refunds you the money back, the matter is pretty much dead. But again, unless you are trying to claim some kind of damages, (lol try explaining difficulty changes and lost minging profits to a judge) i doubt you have any case.
This was actually rehashed several times in several threads, but I can post a summary here: Under federal law, several elements are required to prove fraud: a material false statement made with an intent to deceive, a victim’s reliance on the statement and damages. You can look that up here. http://www.federalcrimefaq.com/what-constitutes-the-crime-of-wire-fraud/BFL saying they had a prototype and a shipping date when they obviously did not and taking peoples money under those pretenses could not have been an accident. There was clear intent to deceive about the current and state shipping date of BFLs products. I think everyone who made a BFL purchase relied on the shipping dates provided in order to calculate their risk and return. The damages are trivial to illustrate, plug a Jalapeno in and it generates a revenue stream. Loss of that promised revenue stream is all you need tell the judge. You cannot undo a criminal act just by giving a refund or any other act of goodwill for that matter. It is also not clear what would happen to BFL if everyone asked for a refund at the same time, if BFL did not spend any of the pre-order cash, why did they need to take pre-orders? If they did spend some of the pre-order cash and something goes wrong (spending out of control due to over optimistic schedules for instance), then not everyone could get a refund. |
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So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.
This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....
It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.
Thanks for the story, a potential MiniRig purchase  Hope Josh could read this Avalon has all the R&D people and manufacturer contacts in one place, BFL contracted out some part of their operation, an integrated solution is always slower than a whole solution But I really think it's good that they don't have MiniRig offering now, this product will kick the difficulty to moon and hurt almost everyone's profit, very bad  I would cancel all mini rig orders if I were BFL. There is no way at 5watts/GHs that product will work unless you have 3 phase installed, or they get some wafers done with fabrication way smaller than 65nm. In either case it's back to the drawing board on that one. How much power can you pull from a typical US domestic power outlet? About 2400 watts on a standard 20amp breaker. Of course, anybody who's serious about putting in a mining farm isn't going to just plug their shit into a standard outlet and walk away. Residential power can easily throw down 200a @240v. or 48,000 watts, or enough to run 1600 jalapenos @30watts. There's literally ZERO chance of anybody over-drawing residential power with BFL equipment. If you're talking about their 1500Gh units, even if you assume 5watts/Gh that's still only 62.5 amps. Plenty of residential hot tubs drawing WAY more than that... One quick correction to your numbers. The national electrical code states that circuit conductors that are fed by a breaker on a continuous load can only be loaded to 80%. #12 wire rated at 20 amps, derated to 16 amps continuous = 16 x 120 = 1920 watts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_CodeYou would need an 80amp circuit to pull 7500 watts to run a 1500GH/s unit (assuming 5w/GH). |
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 this is just too much stupid in one small space for me. Name: mojod Posts: 10 Position: Jr. Member Date Registered: March 22, 2013, 12:13:43 AM Last Active: Today at 10:40:35 PM |
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But why not the same "concern" over avalon or asicminer products. Thats what makes this a troll thread the fake concern over it being compliant.
Because BFL started. It was a BFL shill that gave all the other ASIC producers a hard time claiming they better get FCC approval or they would be shut down. Then BFL reinforced it by claiming to have FCC approval in the works to scare the other ASIC manufacturers away. Now it turns out BFL never did have FCC approval in the works, and it was simply a scare tactic to eliminate any competition. Still didn't answer my Q. What makes the other manufactures immune from this same level of scrutiny? How about the guy that's going to put the Avalon chips on the pcbs for the DIY crowd. You gonna hound him too about making sure his completed asic is UL and FCC compliant. so because he doesnt come on the board and piss off people, he gets a free pass from the FCC? Just saying, this is what makes posts like this a troll post. If you are really concerned about asics being UL and FCC compliant, be consistent about it. Just becuase BFL lied and doesn't give other manu's a free pass, lol. BFL brought up the FCC first. BFL didn't walk their own talk. BFL got a thread about not walking their talk. Re: Avalon, please cite your evidence that Avalon did not get FCC and UL approval for their product. I currently have no such evidence, I haven't seen any posted. The only time anyone has brought it up has been you trying to deflect talk from BFL. |
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But FCC? Can anyone explain? Miners do not emit any radio frequency, do they? They don't even talk to the network (computer does) FCC regulations also cover devices that do not intentionally emit electromagnetic radiation (these are called unintentional radiators). Pretty much any electronic device sold in the U.S. needs to pass FCC regulations, and the seller must have a certificate saying so, issued by a certified testing facility. Of course, the regulations on unintentional radiators are much more lax than the regulations on things like cellphones that are built to emit RF. Testing on simple, unintentional radiators takes a day or two (as has already been mentioned), and can be quite affordable for devices that pass quickly. I've been through the process, and it's really quite boring. BFL's devices themselves will pass easily, but there is one caveat. When you go to test a device, it has to be set up in the way a typical customer would use it. That means a computer and the power supply need to be in the test chamber with the device; everything needs to be hooked up and running. While that may sound simple, "Well the computer is already FCC certified. No big deal!" you will quickly discover that most equipment fails FCC testing (despite being "certified"). That is easily the biggest time sink. That and the power supply ... oh god. As for the consequences for not being FCC certified ... meh. If the FCC contacts BFL, they will have to present the certificate or be fined. It is highly unlikely the FCC will contact them. To be clear, if the FCC received a unit in their facility on Thursday from some entity, it would most definitely be on this website on Friday: The FCC doesn't receive your device (at least for unintentional radiators). You have to take it to a certified testing facility (private companies) to have it tested and certified. I don't recall even submitting paperwork to the FCC the last time I was in that rodeo, though the facility may have. Regardless, I doubt there's a list; it would be huge and expensive to maintain. By the way, a product doesn't always need the FCC mark on it. In fact, it's illegal to put it on there, depending on what kind of device it is. It would be a much more credible thread if it asked why arent any asic devices FCC or UL compliant. If you guys are unhappy with a company, seeking vengeance through an FCC complaint isn't the answer in my opinion. I would rather my tax dollars not be spent that way. Instead, vote with your wallet; ask for a refund and don't buy from them. Well, you are giving way too much thought into it, since the original intent of the thread was just to troll BFL. Really, BFL could just sell the sub-assmblie separate which does nto require FCC. Really a non-issue. See Altera FPGA devices - all NOT FCC certified. Read section on subassemblies. http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdfThe OP was pointing out what may be another instance of BFL not understanding the business they are in. Of course, any examination of BFL that paints it in a negative light creates work for you. The section you quoted: Circuit boards, integrated circuit chips, and other components that are completely
internal to a digital device are subassemblies of the digital device. (Note, however, that
circuit boards or cards that are connected to external devices or increase the operating
or processing speed of a digital device are considered peripherals.) Examples of
subassemblies include internal memory expansion boards, internal disk drives, internal
disk drive controller boards, CPU boards, and power supplies.
Section 15.101(e)
Subassemblies may be sold to the general public or to manufacturers for incorporation
into a final product. While subassemblies are not directly subject to FCC technical
standards or equipment authorization requirements, digital devices containing
subassemblies must still comply with the FCC's technical requirements. Accordingly,
manufacturers of subassemblies should design their products so the digital devices into
which they are installed will comply with the technical standardsMaybe if BFL shipped the 5GH/s device unassembled, they would not be subject to the regulation. I totally agree. Needs fcc cert to be sold as a completed computer peripheral . See we agree on something. But why not the same "concern" over avalon or asicminer products. Thats what makes this a troll thread the fake concern over it being compliant. Because Avalon delivered on time and on spec. Their customers are minting money and happy as clams. With Avalon FCC certification would be the first defect (and only defect that I am aware of). Also, Avalon did not issue an official message through their spokesperson months ago that they were seeking an FCC cert to create the illusion of progress. BFL did. If BFL hadn't brought it up in the first place, we probably would not be talking about it. |
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But FCC? Can anyone explain? Miners do not emit any radio frequency, do they? They don't even talk to the network (computer does) FCC regulations also cover devices that do not intentionally emit electromagnetic radiation (these are called unintentional radiators). Pretty much any electronic device sold in the U.S. needs to pass FCC regulations, and the seller must have a certificate saying so, issued by a certified testing facility. Of course, the regulations on unintentional radiators are much more lax than the regulations on things like cellphones that are built to emit RF. Testing on simple, unintentional radiators takes a day or two (as has already been mentioned), and can be quite affordable for devices that pass quickly. I've been through the process, and it's really quite boring. BFL's devices themselves will pass easily, but there is one caveat. When you go to test a device, it has to be set up in the way a typical customer would use it. That means a computer and the power supply need to be in the test chamber with the device; everything needs to be hooked up and running. While that may sound simple, "Well the computer is already FCC certified. No big deal!" you will quickly discover that most equipment fails FCC testing (despite being "certified"). That is easily the biggest time sink. That and the power supply ... oh god. As for the consequences for not being FCC certified ... meh. If the FCC contacts BFL, they will have to present the certificate or be fined. It is highly unlikely the FCC will contact them. To be clear, if the FCC received a unit in their facility on Thursday from some entity, it would most definitely be on this website on Friday: The FCC doesn't receive your device (at least for unintentional radiators). You have to take it to a certified testing facility (private companies) to have it tested and certified. I don't recall even submitting paperwork to the FCC the last time I was in that rodeo, though the facility may have. Regardless, I doubt there's a list; it would be huge and expensive to maintain. By the way, a product doesn't always need the FCC mark on it. In fact, it's illegal to put it on there, depending on what kind of device it is. If you guys are unhappy with a company, seeking vengeance through an FCC complaint isn't the answer in my opinion. I would rather my tax dollars not be spent that way. Instead, vote with your wallet; ask for a refund and don't buy from them. Well, you are giving way too much thought into it, since the original intent of the thread was just to troll BFL. Really, BFL could just sell the sub-assmblie separate which does nto require FCC. Really a non-issue. See Altera FPGA devices - all NOT FCC certified. Read section on subassemblies. http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdfThe OP was pointing out what may be another instance of BFL not understanding the business they are in. Of course, any examination of BFL that paints it in a negative light creates work for you. The section you quoted: Circuit boards, integrated circuit chips, and other components that are completely
internal to a digital device are subassemblies of the digital device. (Note, however, that
circuit boards or cards that are connected to external devices or increase the operating
or processing speed of a digital device are considered peripherals.) Examples of
subassemblies include internal memory expansion boards, internal disk drives, internal
disk drive controller boards, CPU boards, and power supplies.
Section 15.101(e)
Subassemblies may be sold to the general public or to manufacturers for incorporation
into a final product. While subassemblies are not directly subject to FCC technical
standards or equipment authorization requirements, digital devices containing
subassemblies must still comply with the FCC's technical requirements. Accordingly,
manufacturers of subassemblies should design their products so the digital devices into
which they are installed will comply with the technical standardsMaybe if BFL shipped the 5GH/s device unassembled, they would not be subject to the regulation. |
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So they exist after all
So the faggots who spend most of their days bashing BFL on this forum are suddenly quiet
I wouldn't know, I've had them on ignore for ages.
Oh, no, they're still talking. Mostly going into tinfoil-hat areas of "well, the forum poster has a BFL sig, they must be working for them and making this up!" I assume you are referring to me. It seemed awfully suspicious to me. A customer (supposedly) gets a unit and then does a YouTube video of it being unwrapped. Like it was for show and also had a BFL sig. Now most regular customers aren't going to upload a video to YouTube. From the start of opening the box and showing it for display. That along with having a BFL sig. So there is some reason for skepticism. But sure get on the BFL bandwagon.. You're right. Most people won't do an unboxing vid. So that's why most of the (40+) people who have undoubtedly received a BFL unit hasn't posted a video about it. And you think it is odd that 2-3 geek types have posted unboxing videos? Come on, tech types do that all the time when receiving the latest and greatest tech products. Just type "unboxing" on youtube. 40+ undoubtedly? Citation please. It would be good to see some actual evidence that BFL can produce and ship in double digits. |
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Everyone that I know has acknowledged that BFL has shipped 6 or 8 Jalapenos.
BFL hasn't shipped any Jalapenos. Jalapenos were flat USB-powered silent mining devices. Touche. |
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