Sure, you can ask the government for help, but please realize that that is like asking the Mafia to fix your problem. It will get fixed, for sure, but in a way that will make all of us losers in the end. I suppose this is how the government grows in size indefinitely: by us inviting it to govern more and more of our affairs.
If the FEDs took down pirate there is no reason to think they will not pursue an $8M scam and get Yifu. In fact I think they will be highly motivated to so. Pirate was a US citizien, or? Yifu is not.. so it wouldn't be as easy... He lives in NY ... And the USA government has ZERO qualms about arresting people that are not US citizens. Ask the poker site managers how they were treated (and they were not stealing). Umm, the board of directors at FTP were absolutely stealing bro Man, you are a stickler. You really must think that using other people's money to build them a product and then using that product to mine, then delaying all legitimate shipments of the people who you have stolen from so that you have more market share for a longer period is also stealing then? FTP never had a superuser scandal that was UB. The FTP BoD stole over $300 million from players. |
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Sure, you can ask the government for help, but please realize that that is like asking the Mafia to fix your problem. It will get fixed, for sure, but in a way that will make all of us losers in the end. I suppose this is how the government grows in size indefinitely: by us inviting it to govern more and more of our affairs.
If the FEDs took down pirate there is no reason to think they will not pursue an $8M scam and get Yifu. In fact I think they will be highly motivated to so. Pirate was a US citizien, or? Yifu is not.. so it wouldn't be as easy... He lives in NY ... And the USA government has ZERO qualms about arresting people that are not US citizens. Ask the poker site managers how they were treated (and they were not stealing). Umm, the board of directors at FTP were absolutely stealing bro, although your point still stands. Isn't Isai Schienberg still a fugitive or did he settle already (haven't been following that for a few months)? |
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We are all in uncharted waters, and this captain of the ship (Yifu) has given us some assurance that we will get to our destination. That is enough. None of your crying has helped, and none of your conspiracy theories are true.
If Avalon chip buyers are on a boat and Yifu is the captain, then I think captain Edward Smith |(and the historic boat he last captained) would be the closest real life comparison... |
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It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required. These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business. It boggles my mind that there was any expectation that Terrahash was operating on anything other than the best of intentions. If that was directed at me, could you kindly point out where I indicated anything about TH's intentions? |
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And just to be clear, I'm not bashing TH on this. I'm not saying they're bad, or scamming people, or anything of the sort. This whole situation falls almost 100% on Bitsyncom.
I say almost 100% because TH made a few very grave mistakes and put themselves in this position.
First mistake - starting a business with customer money. They took a huge order from the one company (I forget the name right now) and used the money to order chips.
Second mistake - not getting a legally binding contract specifying that the customer could not cancel the order once the chips had been ordered, or at least specifying that the customer's recourse would be that they would be given ownership interest in any judgment obtained against Bitsyncom in the event of non-delivery of the chips.
Third mistake - when they got a cancellation demand, opening pre-orders to more people to get funds to cover their refund and their first 2 mistakes, kicking the can forward and putting themselves in an untenable position. Honestly I don't even see how they could have thought that was a good idea. Surely you'd see that this is just below the lip of a very very slippery slope. You've already had one person cancel and put you in a bind, how do you think it's not going to happen again? How do you think it's legal, or even right, to take other people's money and use it to pay your previous customers knowing damned well that if it goes bad you'll be unable to refund the new customers? Do you know what that's called? A ponzi scheme. Even though it's not investing, it's the same principle. Using new customers to pay out earlier ones.
I don't believe there was any ill intent on TH part; I don't believe they intended to do bad here. They were inexperienced, and they allowed their desire to make a profit cloud their judgment and they did things that were bad.
If I started a business without the capital to do so, and used people's preorder money to develop or build my product, and a supplier went bad on me I would 100% expect my customers to demand refunds and fight for them, including suing me for them. Would it suck? Would it ruin and bankrupt me? yes. I would have to go after my supplier to try to salvage my finances. That's the way business works, and it's why you NEVER start a business with customer money. You come up with the capital, you find a way to get what you need on credit, you find a way to get an income to the business without the merchandise (through services or other products that you can deliver) first. If you can't do that, you admit to yourself that you do not have the resources to undertake the venture.
EDIT: The above is also why a lot of business ventures go looking for venture capital from investors. That way they're not using customer money to fund the business, they're not doing something illegal. The investors aren't customers and know there is a real risk of losing all of their money and having nothing to show for it. They're compensated by ownership interest in the venture.
The voice of reason! It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required. These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business. Let me put it another way, there is a legal difference between a customer and an investor and a companies responsibility to both are VERY different. The risk level of both is also legally VERY different. What the vast majority of ASIC start ups currently on offer are asking for is investomers, but guess what the law doesn't allow for investomers. According to the law you are a customer (shopping/purchasing for a good(s) or service(s), and have the appropriate risk/reward structure and protections) or you are an investor (funding the business in exchange for future considerations ie royalties, equity etc etc). Until the BTC community starts to think like the real world on the most basic of levels these companies will continue to operate this way. Please people stop giving away all your power (read: money). As is clearly evident from the likes of BFL and Avalon (obviously there's others) once you pre-pay in full 99% of your power is out of your hands and the 1% you have left is most likely a long, expensive battle to recoup pennies on the dollars in a worst case. |
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^^^^ You sir made me laugh  |
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Homer Simpson: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa Simpson: That’s specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn’t work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
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According to http://bfl.ptz.ro/Jalapeno: 3575 ordered, 788 shipped, 2787 remaining, 22.04% fulfilled. Little single: 1230 ordered, 87 shipped, 1143 shipped, 7.07% fulfilled. Single: 2678 ordered, 233 shipped, 2445 remaining, 8.70% fulfilled. Mini rig: 185 ordered, 25 shipped (to Josh), 160 remaining, 13.51% fulfilled. My guess is that the fulfilment rate is reaaaaally overstated since sales went out of the community more and more with the massive ad campaign BFL had earlier. Care to correct these numbers Josh? Don't be shy! I asked Josh just the other day a similar question. He apparently is flush with innuendo's but a little lacking on solid numbers to back things up at this point. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2913623#msg2913623 |
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Hello,
I just need some advice, many miners in this forum uses the ASICMINER USBs, considering the cost +/- 0.34 BTC per unit plus the USB hub etc. Still profitable? Will be a bit more than 1 BTC per 1 Gigahash.
In one side I see has immediate delivery in the other side per bigger hardware with unclear delivery date will have a lower cost Gh/s is for me really hard to determine once the thousands big ASIC units are delivered how much they can produce, may be finally is better to buy now what is available and get some coins now instead of waiting until everybody has more capacity and the estimated production per Gigahash drop.
Also saw many many people using the USBs but not sure if they are hobbyist or pros.
Feedback is welcomed.
At that price per GH/s the device will never break even let alone generate any profit |
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money from nothing and your chips for free...I want my - I want my - I want my - BTC,,,, I think I heard that song on the radio today  Ain't got a clue as to which song you're in reference to, but I did find this dandy tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AA64eCt2zsYa that may be more like it,,,so far away... anyways,,,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwDDswGsJ60Listen to near the end,,,I swear thats what they are saying...lol It's definitely not what they're saying LOL, replace chips with chicks and BTC with MTV |
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Hating to break into the talk about how babies are made ... Still - here is Miner Protection Program: Along with everyone else, we too have been closely watching the growth of the network Hashrate. It is of concern to all miners, particularly to those looking to pre-purchase equipment. The more time there is between purchase and delivery, the greater the risk that the Hashrate will climb to a point where the miner will never make their money back. That is the reason behind our Miner Protection Program, and the guarantee we provide is: If any of our pre-purchase customers has not achieved payback on their investment in HashFast equipment within 90 days* of taking delivery from us, we will support them by providing them with up to 4X the Hashing capacity they originally purchased, free of charge.
The details: We will give you double the extra capacity you would have needed to break even (up to a maximum of 4x your original purchase). The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis. *Assuming you have been running your mining rig 24/7, ROI calculated from the daily difficulty level, block arrival rate, and hash rate of equipment delivered. Eduardo deCastro Founder and CEO, Hashfast Can you explain how you calculate and what "payback of your investment" means? Is payback meant to mean "break even" point? Is the break even point (if that's what you mean) calculated in BTC or USD? Your terms appear to be hastily put together with a lot of ambiguity, leaving you guys many options to "word speak" your way out of it. |
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Why didn't Bitsyncom get one?
One word: China How does China affect an American LLC getting a subpoena. |
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Hi fellow bitcoiners, My name is David and I'm new to the forums but not new to making money day trading. I've traded everything from BTC, LTC, Gold, Silver, Natural Gas, euro/usd, usd/chf usd/jpy, aud/chf, nasdaq100, dj30, ftse100, cotton, sugar, just to name a few.
In the next few weeks I'll be rolling out a trading tool I call "David's forex/commodity/crypto-coin picks.
For the first little while I'll be giving out free picks and posting some of my positions I take, once a few members who have been here a while have made money with my picks, I'll start selling my picks on a weekly basis.
If anyone here has and suggestions for me I'd love to hear them, I'm smart enough to know what I know and smart enough to know what I don't.
I look forward to making you guys some money and padding my pockets along the way.
David
post references, otherwise -> scam possibility: 99% Firstly, I am not a scam/scammer/fraud/thief. I live by the motto "do on to others as you wish to be done to you". Second, while I understand your want and need to protect the community I have not solicited any coins/funds/securities. All I've done is introduce myself and ask if there were any suggestions for me. I plan on updating this thread later tonight with the last week's positions I have taken and the results of those picks (all are in the green so far, lets see how natural gas closes today though) I myself am still in training, I've been doing this with the help of a family member for about 2 months and up to now I am in the green to the tune of about 2000 USD. My "jedi" who's taken me under his wing has earned over 85000USD in the last 18 months. It was his idea for me to come here and start an account to maybe try to sell our/his tips/picks in the future but for now I`m here to chat it up and make friends. David i didnt say its a scam  i just wanted to help to get rid of future possible problems. things here are a bit different, ie "everyone is a thief until he proofs he isnt" which kinda makes it hard as newcomer, il agree. the more informations you post (about what you do, what you did and who you are), the less chance of it being scam and the more ppl will trust you. the "I am not a scam/scammer/fraud/thief" dosnt work as everyone says it (even the most obvious ones) where we come back to the "everyone is a thief until he proofs he isnt". greetings Ya it's kinda like the wild west around here LOL... Welcome to Deadwood. |
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Not a chance, the product was priced in $USD not bitcoin. If you paid via bitcoin then you used a 3rd party like Bitpay that converted your BTC to $USD at a spot price to pay BFL.
That said, you should be able to get a refund from BFL in USD.
At this point, the problem is getting any refund at all. Those Scammerfly Labs claim that "all sales are final". BFL are in Kansas, which has strong consumer laws regarding refunds, "the all sales are final" clause can be safely ignored providing you lodge your complaint in Kansas. BFL has publicly stated they are not providing refunds anymore. The only refunds that appear to be going through anymore are forced ones through PP or CC. So its FTC/government or a lawyer at this point if you paid BTC. |
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no... BFL is not located in NY - NY the state has jurisdiction within its borders.
noone on this forum seems to understand jurisdiction. it's like AsicMiner getting a subpeona from him. does it make sense?
i mean they can ask nicely after all- subpeona is not asking nicely
When you do business in any state (regardless of where the company is incorporate or operates) you must comply with laws of the state you are doing business in. If BFL has customers in NY state and the authorities feel they have broken NY state laws they can go after them. |
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That said, you should be able to get a refund from BFL in USD.
Huh?? |
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Is there a public copy of the subpoena anywhere? Is that information released normally?
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dude is confused about people complaining about late orders with hardware vs conversion
Why would you say that, he clearly identifies the service providers and then calls BFL a tech company. I don't think he is confusing the two at all. It also mentions in another article (WSJ I believe) that the subpoena was for information on a wide range of topics. One of which named specifically was consumer protection. It makes all the sense in the world they would want to talk to BFL. |
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I applaud BPM for protecting their customers, a refreshing change in a BTC only business. I wish you and your investors luck seeking restitution from Avalon.
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Dude I may well do in future. Convince me.
The burden of proof is on you. we certainly haven't got time to deal with this. Simply wait around until the launch and then see whether we would be a safer bet than companies that are requesting direct payments. Not a single ASIC vendor has delivered on time yet for all their order; the reason why they get away with it is because they've already been paid. (other than ASICMINER)I just don't understand why they need money held in limbo in escrow, when they can afford release the funds and therefore to get paid when they have the products ready made and in hand? The only reason would be to prevent people from purchasing elsewhere or to pull some form of scam. If you have the funds to make the products, there's no need for pre-orders. Maybe I missed it but what if a customer wants a refund before the product ships? Is escrow released back to the client? No. Then that is why they want escrow IMO. It's their hedge against the hash rate exploding IMO. |
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