If they used fully unrolled SHA256 pipelines (128+ stages), a single glitch anywhere would take out an entire engine. If each engine takes up 0.5mm and one glitch would wreck it, that could explain crappy yields.
Good point, though yields still should not be that crappy. Interestingly Bitfury's new chip is using 756 rolled double-cores https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228677.msg2408299#msg24082990.5 (mm2) is still a lot of real estate you need to get perfect in order for 1 engine to function. It might stretch the boundaries of the process. Bitfury's method is a lot more resistant to failure. If you lose a few cores out of 756, nobody cares. Just have the firmware test em on initial and mark em dead if they don't test right. |
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Do you care to speculate what could be the specific mistake that the BFL's designers made? For example eldentyrell speculated a while back that they made their simulations at the default temperature chosen by SPICE in absence of specific setting: 25 deg C. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=166321.0Obviously, we don't have sufficient information to make a real assesment; but I think even making a scientific wild ass guess will have some educational value for the readership of this forum. I would guess that when doing integrity simulations they did not set the upper bound to say 85C, which is fairly common in commercial electronics. In applications that use heatsinks sometimes this results in incorrectly calculating the efficiency of said heatsink. This can be empirically tested, say by cooling with LN2, which is readily available at most lab test supply shops. If the chip error rate reduces at the same clock frequency, then the efficiency of the heatsink and/or upper bound of simulation was not 85C. In Cadence's package design software and subsequent sim, -20C and 85C are used as the lower and upper bounds, respectively. There are a number of other reasons they could be experiencing low yields, but the facts are a) Global Foundaries' 65nm process is fairly mature b) the design rule checks (DRC's) provided by foundaries and/or built into any usable EDA software would catch the majority of other potential culprits, such as signal integrity or cross talk issues. If they used fully unrolled SHA256 pipelines (128+ stages), a single glitch anywhere would take out an entire engine. If each engine takes up 0.5mm and one glitch would wreck it, that could explain crappy yields. |
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We have months of statements by BFL proven incorrect. I suppose you will argue that. What you have is months of missed targets, over-promising, and under-delivering. There's a big difference between missing a target, and deceit. I've said time and time again that I agree that BFL is overly optimistic. I don't care whether they are "mistaken" or deceiving. People "mistakenly" spend all their company's cash all the time. Usually they are "mistaken" in front of a bankruptcy judge. However, being wrong about when they could deliver something does not equate to a false statement of fact. If BFL says "2 weeks" I think there's good reason to discount it, as they're just waaaaaaay too optimistic about this stuff.
There are plenty of statements by Josh (like the power measurements that they took on the chips they didn't have that said they met their projections that they have since admitted they did not meet) that were clearly lies (some would call it marketing) to put pressure on their competitors and reassure their pre-order base (which they had to keep on the hook for another 6 months). If they say "We have not touched any pre-order money" there's no good reason not to believe it, other than personal bias, and your overpowering personal need to think of BFL as criminals and scammers.
You are blinded by your undying love for BFL. You have never admitted they have ever done anything shady or wrong. I don't ever expect you to. Something, something, blathering horse shit about how much I hate Josh and BFL. Once again, not bothering with it... Good idea, I already crushed you on those arguments and simply would have linked to the threads where you left with your tail between your legs.  |
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Sure, Josh claims that they have hundreds of TH/s of parts to build product from, But since they do not yet have a mini-rig or single design that works, which parts exactly will they construct these devices from? Did they buy everything before they knew what they needed to make the devices work (this has already happened once by BFL's own admission)? That is hardly reassuring. Once again, are you assuming that they are lying, or do you have evidence that they don't actually have the parts? You just said that you think that they've spent up enough money that they could be facing bankruptcy. OK... On what, praytell, did they spend all that money? A year's salary for a small staff? Okay, pretty sure they've already shipped enough Jalpenos to pay for that. Where did all the rest of this allegedly 'all spent up money' go? Come on, guy, which is it? Did they spend the money, or didn't they? 20 people was the last headcount BFL gave us. That is easily a million alone in salary over the course of a year. They outsourced the design of a 100% hand routed ASIC @ 65nm with a 7.5 mm2 die size. You can fit 800,000 gates per square millimeter on 65nm, so their die could hold several million. That sort of chip complexity will cost you easily $500K in NRE. They had to redo the design (and have admitted to it) so even more money spent. Don't even get me started on all the taxes they face on the money they have collected for pre-orders. Which parts do they have exactly? They have not yet successfully made the chips run at a density that would make a mini-rig or full size single viable. How could they have power supplies, or PCBS, or case mountings, or components for the PCBs picked out yet? Why do their chip pre-orders (limited to 100,000) face 100 days till delivery? I thought they had hundreds of TH/s of chips lying around. How could they have stockpiled parts for a product that does not yet exist? If they stockpiled parts and they can't make the design work from their stockpiles, wouldn't that be worse? I am giving BFL the benefit of the doubt by saying they don't have a warehouse full of parts that they cannot build a product from. |
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You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories. I'm all good on that garbage.
Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:
You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about. False. Your perception is pretty poor. I stopped discussing it with you because you are apparently incapable of staying focused. Try to notice that the discussion has moved on without you. Wrenchmonkey summed up quite clearly why that happened, I'm sorry if/that you can't comprehend it. Once again you fail to address your logic gaps. I spelled them out in great detail. You change the subject. You completely dodge my comments. I know I am winning because you refuse to discuss it. That is the hallmark of willful ignorance. what? An internet argument? Congrats, man! I also choose not to discuss (or, in your case, end discussions) with small children about finances when they don't understand how market forces operate. It's not worth my time. Another change of subject and more backpedaling. Run along. /pats ThatDGuy on the head. Perhaps you can read about a real life example of what I am contending that occurred a few weeks before you joined us on these boards: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152980.0https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143496.0https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137876.0Who am I kidding, you won't click on a single one of those links about a bitcoin ASIC mining company that got capsized by a refund wave. |
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As soon as word got out that BFL could not pay the refund requests, nobody would think they could afford to finance the purchase of parts to construct their units. They've clearly got SOME level of parts stock on hand, as they're currently assembling and shipping Jalapenos. Furhtermore, I can think of about 18,000 reasons why I would think they could afford to purchase parts for my units. See below: I am EXTREMELY confident that I would not be the only one who would be jumping on board to get at the front of the line for currently-shipping Jalpenos. A couple dozen medium-sized buyers, and it doesn't matter if they are 'financially insolvent' the day all the refund requests go in. The very instant that queue goes to zero (hypothetically, of course, since we know that's not gonna happen), their bank account will fill right back up The customers of bASIC will be overjoyed to hear that they did not in fact lose their refunds and that the market will be surging to their rescue. And who says anyone with a Jalapeno order would cancel? You could put a $5 million dollar hit on BFL's books just by canceling the mini-rigs. If KNCMiner ships a Saturn, which has better price-performance than a mini-rig, who would buy from BFL instead? Wouldn't the market vote with it's wallet? Would you add your order to BFL's 90day Jalapeno queue knowing that they just got hit with the same style of refund wave which bankrupted bASIC and cost a lot of their customers their investment? |
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You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories. I'm all good on that garbage.
Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:
You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about. You admitted you would not speculate or entertain anyone's speculation on the state of BFL's finances. Speculation based on nothing is not the same as speculation based on available facts. You have ZERO founded reason to assume that BFL has in fact touched the pre-order money, when the public information available states that this isn't the case. The only reason you have chosen to assume that the pre-order money is gone, is your own personal bias and hatred for BFL. You have no evidence that it isn't there. Zero, zilch, zip, nada. We have months of statements by BFL proven incorrect. I suppose you will argue that. You argue everything else trying to deflect from BFL's failures. BFL run by a person convicted of fraud and still on probation. I suppose you will resurrect your "IRS witchhunt" theory and I will have to post Sonny's plea bargain agreement again where testified against his co-conspirators in exchange for a light sentence. BFL refusing to identify their source of funding and it's size (GIANT red flag in the start up community). I suppose you will say that mentioning once in a PR statement that a secret and nameless "private equity group" has backed them is "proof". We can have that discussion again, I would enjoy humiliated you over it again. 11 months of operations, photos, claims of improvements made to their "factory", employees hired. I have plenty of evidence of them spending money. I don't need to prove it is there, they do. All you have is a statement by Josh (who's track record speaks for itself) that they still have all the pre-order money. Hardly "speculation based on nothing". Quite the opposite. |
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You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories. I'm all good on that garbage.
Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:
You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about. False. Your perception is pretty poor. I stopped discussing it with you because you are apparently incapable of staying focused. Try to notice that the discussion has moved on without you. Wrenchmonkey summed up quite clearly why that happened, I'm sorry if/that you can't comprehend it. Once again you fail to address your logic gaps. I spelled them out in great detail. You change the subject. You completely dodge my comments. I know I am winning because you refuse to discuss it. That is the hallmark of willful ignorance. |
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You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories. I'm all good on that garbage.
Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:
You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about. You admitted you would not speculate or entertain anyone's speculation on the state of BFL's finances. You admitted it was a ludicrous hyptothetical from BFL Josh. Now here is a hyptothetical for you: If BFL had burned through a large chunk of their pre-order money by financing development and operations over the last 11 months, a mass of refunds could bankrupt them. One ASIC company has already fallen prey to this. The market did not save them, it turned on them. Your speculation that the market would rally to save a company facing bankruptcy is poignant but not realistic. As soon as word got out that BFL could not pay the refund requests, nobody would think they could afford to finance the purchase of parts to construct their units. Sure, Josh claims that they have hundreds of TH/s of parts to build product from, But since they do not yet have a mini-rig or single design that works, which parts exactly will they construct these devices from? Did they buy everything before they knew what they needed to make the devices work (this has already happened once by BFL's own admission)? That is hardly reassuring. If you (by your own admission) cannot know the state of BFL's finances, how can you be so adamant that a wave of refunds would not bankrupt them? Without knowledge of BFL's financial state, you cannot know how badly a wave of refunds would affect them. You will not deviate from the idea that BFL can only benefit from a mass of refund requests. So either you have knowledge of BFL's financial state, or you have speculated on BFL's financial state, or you are simply unwilling to contemplate a scenario where BFL fails. Which ever one it is, your position is internally inconsistent. Outside spectators are able to see it plainly, both the current situation as well as how terribly your position is holding up here. I am not fond of the fact that you're forcing me to rub it in your face but how else are you supposed to give up and move on?
I'm really pulling for you, here. Come back to the light of reality. The trend is your friend.
You fail to address your own inconsistencies and wrap yourself in the adulation of the incompetent. The light of reality has never shown on you. After you have been exposed to BFL for more than a couple of "Two more weeks (TM)", you will understand. Some people cannot learn from others mistakes, they must be burned themselves before they can internalize the lesson. It is obvious that you are such a person and therefore we must wait until you are burned by BFL. Tick tock. |
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Encased in a mineral oil bath?
To move the heat away from the chip,: One should use copper. Copper has far higher thermal conductivity than mineral oil (like 50x). So, more chips will need more copper sinks in contact with them. To move the heat away from the copper: If you go with water blocks (or mineral oil blocks), then you can use less copper and move the heat away from the copper faster with water (or oil). I don't think you will save money or power consumption that way since the plumbing adds cost and complexity. A bit more copper with some fans for each cluster of 2 chips should be sufficient. |
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To those who are so concerned with heat dissipation, why not just go water-cooled. I don't really care about having a small cute little case that sits on my desk. I think we'd probably be fine using standard heatsinks on each pair of chips. This would require a slightly larger board area, but we're all going to be doing custom cases. If it turns out that we need more heat dissipation than we can get with heatsinks, throw a water block or two on there, and call it a day.
Ultimately, I see it as virtually a non-issue. The question now, of course, is whether it's worth paying the same $/hash to get these chips. I'm thinking BFL needs to come off their price by roughly $25/chip at a minimum. If they can come down to $50, they'll sell like hotcakes.
Zomg, I agree with Wrenchmonkey about something. One heatsink + fan per chip, or a waterblock per 2-4 chips should handle the heat problem. Unfortunately, that raises the price of a unit by $15 - $35 per chip used (including copper sinks/blocks, pump & plumbing). That sort of expense shreds BFL's bang for the buck. |
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Loved it. Hope it memes. Edit: grrr, table is glitching the first picture  Oh well, looks good in preview  |
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will the chips in the mixed lots be specifically labeled with "A", "B", etc? why they plan to sell mixed grade lots?
Because with their previous pricing and allowing people to pick their grades, they would never sell anything but grade A chips. Now they don't have to worry about demand for one type being higher than the others. No. Each chip will be labeled with a custom code and a set of clues, leading the purchaser through a set of puzzles each more devious than the last. It is only when you've gone through every challenge and survived an epic plot twist that the final grade will be revealed. And there is a cake.  |
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Congrats. Nice to see more of these things in the wild. The haters are getting soooooo pissed. Let me just mix a little data in from http://bfl.ptz.ro/| Total SC Jalapeno | Total Qty Little Single | Total Qty SC Single | Total Mini Rig | Total | | 2588 | 934 | 1970 | 138 | 5630 | | 11,646 GH/s | 28,020 GH/s | 118,200 GH/s | 207,000 GH/s | 364,866 GH/s | | $385,612 | $606,166 | $2,559,030 | $4,126,062 | $7,676,870 |
364,866 GH/s owed by BFL before this thread. 364,861 GH/s owed by BFL after this thread. I think the people getting pissed are the investors who are owed Little Singles, SC Singles, and Mini-Rigs. According to Josh in 90 days 3% of outstanding BFL orders will be filled when they finish shipping Jalapenos. |
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Red_Wolf_2's story might sound all good and that but doesn't quite add up when BFL themselves are stating "we're most likely looking at shipping in about 2 weeks time" almost every month. They've since eased up the shoddy predictions but my point still stands.
^This If BFL had simply admitted to their errors and their need to redesign twice, far fewer people would be angry with them. However, BFL had been taking pre-orders and were in a 3 way marketing war with bASIC and Avalon. BFL could not show weakness because we all saw what happened to Bitcoin ASIC companies that run into trouble and get asked for too many refunds (wink wink bASIC). God knows what actually happened in BFL. I do know that since that post appeared on BFL's forums that it has been blessed by management (BFL aggressively moderates their forums). Edit: also, it could have been so much worse. http://o.canada.com/2013/06/06/spain-builds-submarine-70-tons-too-heavy/ |
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Guys, Guys...
I have an autistic cousin (think Rainman) who will come to your house and calculate sha256 hashes in his head. All I ask is that you donate 5 BTC to him and 7 BTC to me for facilitating the deal (fair is fair). After all, I did spend $10,000 $30,000 $35,000 $640,000 raising him since birth.
He can calculate 60 Th/s in his head... 90 Th/s if you give him coffee. He can also do scrypt hashing but only at 400 Mh/s because he has to use his fingers.
Currently, he can only be in one place at a time due to the laws of physics... but we are working with VPSguy83 and his team to get around the laws of physics, as they have done with their PCIe ASIC. So being that he can only be hashing for one person at a time (and from 7:30-8:00 he watches Jeopardy!), this is a very limited opportunity. I will post pictures of my cousin as proof he exists next week on the 1st on the 3rd June 6th tomorrow soon.
ACT NOW BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE, OR YOU WILL BE KICKING YOURSELF*
I chose to post in this thread because I see that there are several people here who know a good opportunity when they see one.
If you are worried that this is a scam, my dad is a cop and vouches for me that it isn't and he can't lie about it or it's entrapment. I can't think of better proof than that.
*Provided you are flexible enough.
NO PURCHASE NECESSARY (BUT DONATION NECESSARY.) Void where prohibited. Donations do not guarantee anything, but rather get you the opportunity to spend more BTC, which will get your name put on a piece of paper and place into a hat. At some point in the future we will pick a name out of the hat and for 5 BTC more, the name will be placed onto a numbered list. A random number generator created by my uncle who wrote it in 5 seconds after watching Judge Judy will select a random number and whoever's name corresponds with that number gets put into the pool of people who may ultimately get to have my cousin over to hash for them. An additional 40 BTC/day per diem is required as well. Visit my website I tried to setup to review hardware but realized AMD is not going to just send me hardware for free so is sitting empty, or visit the company website me and my partners (plucked from Google, Microsoft, and Sesame Street) have yet to setup because we are learning how to use soldering irons and don't feel a website is necessary when you are a tech company asking people for money. Also check out my successful VPS company at [redacted]. All donations are non-refundable. Donations do not guarantee that you will be contacted... ever. If you post in this thread that my offer is legit and that I am not scamming anyone, I will give you a 10% discount. Void in Rhode Island.
Do you take credit cards?  |
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Guys, what's the need to hurt yourself? Is greed so blinding, really?
Let it go. We got in the arse with BFL. We suffered, and now we accept we will never get our Singles, Mini Singles and Mini Rigs.
Don't add insult to the injury. So now they sell their chips in order for the community to find out how to design units from them? And you BUY?
Seriously guys. Have a little bit of self-respect at least.
Nobody has bought anything yet. AFAIK the group buy is not open. This is just an exploratory thread to see if BFL can offer (and keep to) terms that would entice the community to buy their chips. |
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Look up hypothetical, and maybe take a nap to calm down? I don't know, running out of suggestions for you.
Let me link to you the message in this thread where you declare you don't care about the current state of BFL's finances while discussing the effects a mass of refunds would have on BFL's finances. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226608.msg2397664#msg2397664I will also link the content of that post here, so you cannot misrepresent it. Explain where their operating capital for the last 11 months and the next few weeks came from.
Don't care. Not their accountant. Talk about willful ignorance + confirmation bias. Classic case thereof. I already linked the wikipedia page explaining hypothetical logic and the fallacy that you were engaged in. I'll just add that to the list of things you didn't read or didn't understand. |
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They are more like feral cats. They collect in a place, scratch it up, shit all over the place and then leave when it's a wreck, to find a new place to ruin for everyone else.
Sounds like you and trust LOL.  |
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Congrats  What was the date of that order? Have you updated the list at bfl.ptz.ro ? |
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