my 2cents: let's take a brake and regroup
looking at the address i see 20btc extra, so lets say 20btc brought 50btc! that is some luck!!!
and what comes after luck? ....
thinking of taking a break myself and willing to give up my place for RoadStress if he will give me back the place in the future!
Thanks and of course I will give it back  philipma1957 I know that you have a lot on your head, but just let me know when and where to pay my share of 0.5 btc (if I got this right). Also thanks for organizing this. |
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It's just that the positive aspects of this don't seem to work in a real scenario, at least from my perspective. When you say, I want to buy a $3 game, there's effectively no reason to spend $23 on a $3 game, but spending $23 is not for the game, it's for exchanging currency. And people usually exchange currency in bigger amounts, not in $3 chunks.
If you have an “extra credit” that you can spend on more Internet connection... how did you get your extra credit in the first place? From that phone that is sucking your electricity bill? When you see the whole picture, that “extra credit” is really negative. The only way to get the extra credit for real is not investing in such device in the first place.
Well I'm expecting this to work for the same reasons that you don't expect it to work What a strange situation right? That's my reasoning too. If you want to buy a 3$ game why should you be required to have 23$ in order to buy from an exchange? You can easily use your 3$ credit to buy your game. Job done. No other hassle. They would be using an asic chip not just the cpu and an app, we know how efficient these chips can be. I am sure for battery sensitive items they will be the the lowest watt usage chip they have.
KnC was advertising 0.07W/GH at chip level. While I don't believe them let's assume a 0.1W/GH. Do you know how much power does a cell phone use in standby and while using it for facebook or whatsapp? You don't see how these kinds of statements are completely unnecessary and rude? How they are attacks without any basis? You're helpless. You stated that 21inc wants to add various layers of costs to browsing the internet that we don't have now. Please prove it! If you can't prove it then it's just either lies or your imagination. Correct? Also you stated that buying a 21inc enabled device will make people spend a lot of extra money. The a lot remark is, again, either lie or your imagination. Correct? Those are not attacks. It's called reality and debunking your myths! If you can't handle them then stop spreading lies/false information and keep it to yourself. Some people might believe you and that is hurting me. You could've offered counter arguments against mine by giving an example of how 21 inc could make money without taking advantage of consumers.
You could've offered examples of how 21 inc devices would be beneficial.
Instead, you choose to attack me, saying my statements are false, saying that I'm forcing people my lifestyle, saying i'm imagining things or whatever other crap you came up with. What a troll. You haven't directly answered any of my arguments, only made statements on me.
It doesn't matter even if I make false statements or whatever. That doesn't make your arguments true. You can't point out the benefit of 21 inc to the consumer. All you can do is attack people who have doubts about 21 inc's business. So sad. I'm done responding to you, troll.
Well I have provided counter arguments, but you are so pissed off that you simply don't see them. Here they are again: You can make money from B2B too. If facebook can make money without asking money from the consumers then other companies can do it too! Yes I know it is a bit general saying B2B, but I find it to be on par with your argument of "taking advantage of customers". I will try more: while I really suck on doing business in general I think that an example of doing B2B as 21inc is simply an affiliate discount/bonus from Cisco for bringing sales. While I don't find this scenario real I'm just saying that there are a lot more possibilities than the customers. Also we must not ignore the fact that while they have the most money invested they are trying to address the masses. They are the first bitcoin company that is directly targeting the masses of non-bitcoin people. All other companies are targeting bitcoin people and that is also seen in the announced discounts. This doesn't seem like a plan to take advantage of the consumers at all to me. Or at least not in a direct way. I see it in a way that people will not care. Just like Facebook is doing it or Google or Skype and so on. There are MANY companies that don't take advantage of the consumers. Those are your best counter examples! Again, I would like to remind you that I have pointed out the benefits of 21 inc to the consumer. Look in the previous posts. And what you see as attacking I'm seeing as stopping the false information. |
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Good job on your plethora of ad hominem attacks. How are you spending a lot of extra money when using the 21inc enabled device? You spend more on electricity than the value of the bitcoins you get back. Therefore the cost of getting bitcoins from 21inc devices is greater than the value of the bitcoin. By definition. If you don't get that, there's not much more to say. I can get bitcoins cheaper and faster from exchanges, from doing contract work, from localbitcoins, from mining with my own ASIC, and potentially a hundred other ways as bitcoin infrastructure improves. What are the benefits that I personally get from a 21 inc device? I'm not altruistic enough to spend my money lining the pockets of 21 inc execs and investors, nor am I altruistic enough to spend my own money helping bitcoin's security. I want a concrete benefit that I can get from 21 inc device that I can't get elsewhere. Otherwise, why would I use it? So pointing out the false/wrong things that you say is received as a direct attack? Ok. Keep the false statements coming. Humans always pay more for a product. It's like saying that everyone should only buy stuff from the super/hypermarkets because otherwise they will pay an added cost for that item. We always do that and when we are talking about very small amounts the added cost is really insignificant! Judging by your opinion you would like that nobody buys 21 inc products while I would like to have those products in as many hands as possible! Don't compare your life style with others. While you can get bitcoins using all those methods maybe there are people who don't want to use your methods. Why not leave them to pay more for their satoshis? Why do you want to restrict how people get their coins? "nor am I altruistic enough to spend my own money helping bitcoin's security" That's one main reason why you would want 21 inc devices to succeed. So you won't be required to invest your own money into bitcoin's security. I see it this way: Let's say we need 1B$ for bitcoin's security. We can either have a group of ~100k people that pay for the security or we can have 100M people that pay for the security. Which one would you choose? So think about it. Who are they making money off of? Their consumers, of course. There's no way they'll offer a bigger discount than the amount they'll earn back. Which means consumers lose.
Unless they're providing some other form of value, like TVs or routers do, as per RoadStress' examples. Every electric device we have currently gives us some value, which is why we're willing to sacrifice financially to use them. What value does 21 inc provide to the consumer? It's not financial. So what is it? I can't see it. Again speaking from your imagination? Do you have their business plan? Share it with us please. Why do you think that the only reason is to make money of the consumers? Don't get me wrong. Maybe they will do money from the consumers in a way, but there are also other methods to do money as a company. You can make money from B2B too. If facebook can make money without asking money from the consumers then other companies can do it too! |
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It must! Anyone knows about the cell phones power requirements in standby mode and in full power mode? We need to figure out some numbers because I would like to figure out how much power will the bitcoin mining use.
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Why would anyone bother to acquire just some satoshis, instead of a reasonable fraction of bitcoins (like 0.1 BTC, for example, for which you don't need any documents to get)? Getting just the satoshis is as useful as using faucets so much announced in these forums, which many knowledgeable people can assure you they are not worth the hassle (you don't even get a single penny after being hours in those sites).
It seems that you're trying to find a motivation of a hypothetical client of this product, a motivation that I see unrealistic.
Well for start we don't even know if the user will directly keep the satoshis or if they will have some sort of credit on their account. The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to believe that the users will not keep a wallet. Having some sort of credit is much easier for both the user and 21 inc. But let's say I want to buy a game that costs 3$. Why should I go and spend 23$ or the equivalent of 0.1 BTC to buy something worth 3$? Maybe I don't have 23$, but I have 3$. What if I want an additional 100MB of internet on my phone this month only? Why should I go and to some other transactions when I can just use my credit to buy the 100MB? Less friction, less problems. Easy life. I am not trying to find a motivation. I am only trying to make you see that there are many alternatives to your negative way of thinking. There are some good things that will come with these devices. Why do we/you only have to see the negative ones? Not going to quote all that, so RoadStress,
Please explain how this will be better than buying bitcoins from an exchange. Where's the benefit? I can buy bitcoins cheaper from an exchange if that's what I wanted. Why do I have to go through the trouble of buying a 21inc enabled device, then spend a lot of extra money, wait a year and not have enough satoshis for a single lunch meal?
Finally, I'm just going to say that you're saying other people are being stubborn when you're the one being stubborn. That's why you misunderstand people's points; I never said anything about financial gain from TVs or routers. You just assumed that because you're arguing against what you THINK people are saying, not what they're actually saying.
So there aren't any layers of costs for browsing. It was just your imagination. I am glad we figured this one out! I have explained above why is this better than buying bitcoins from an exchange. What you see as trouble of buying a 21inc enabled device I see as a benefit to the trouble of getting bitcoins from an exchange. I see more friction when using an exchange than using your 21inc enabled device. I see as spending extra money when using an exchange for various micropayments (under than 5$). How are you spending a lot of extra money when using the 21inc enabled device? I don't get it and I don't expect you to reply just as you did with the layers of costs for browsing. The 21 inc enabled devices aren't here to provide anyone with a free meal. They are here to provide different things. I may not have explained better, but your view on this is very limited. Don't view it as a regular mining device, because it's not. You never said anything about the financial gain from the TVs or routers, but odolvlobo said: "Negligible or not, the cost of running the mining chip would exceed its benefit." and you jumped into that discussion when you replied to my reply I just replied that not all appliances that we have in our homes bring us a direct benefit that is more than the power consumed by them. My conclusion is that I see this a a very good thing for bitcoin and for users. You don't see it the same because of some non-existing issues from my point of view and while I am stubborn in real life I am very open when it comes to tech and Bitcoin. I want to see this happening! You (and others) on the other hand are reluctant. |
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Earned satoshis that make them lose money. I think it would be better for them (and everyone) to just use an exchange. They will get a way better rate for their bitcoins.
Buying some satoshis from an exchanger has very big added costs compared to what you buy. The wire transfer cost may be bigger than what you buy. Think about that too. We are talking about satoshis that are worth less than 5$/month. Why would anyone bother to sign up and to send documents to an exchange when they can get them from their mobile phone? It's too complicated and pointless to use an exchange for such low amounts. 1. And how many people care about that? Pretty much none. Even for the people who do care, the network is decently secure right now. Very few people will spend their own money to secure the network. If they did, they still should buy their own ASIC; at least they'd get 100% of the bitcoins instead of only 25%. 2. It was what I gathered from the article on coindesk. Who knows, I may have misunderstood. http://www.coindesk.com/21-intel-bitcoin-mining-strategy/3. Again, TVs, routers, give you a benefit. You can watch shows or access the internet. This gives you 0 benefit. "You will earn some satoshis" is not a benefit. How about this: You pay me $1,000,000 USD, and I give you 1,000,000 Satoshis. You get a benefit, since you get satoshis. It doesn't work that way, because you can buy it for a cheaper price on an exchange or elsewhere easily. Wasting electricity purely to help 21 inc mine doesn't give you any benefit. You're thinking of this as a sort of rebate, like you had to spend the electricity anyway, so why not get some satoshis back. But that's not the case. the Miner requires additional electricity that you would not have used. So in effect, all its doing is taking your money and giving you back less. 1. Fine I agree that the regular Joe might not care about the bitcoin security, but the network is far from decently secure right now. Someone with not that much money can disrupt bitcoin. 100M$ is not much at all for any government or for Goldman Sachs. Having a network hashrate in the tens of exahashes makes it almost impossible for anyone to disrupt bitcoin. 2. All I found in that article is this: "mobile phone chargers and USB hubs would seek to encourage micropayments in applications, while routers and game consoles would allow users to spend bitcoin for added bandwidth or on in-app purchases." which is decent. How did you got from added bandwidth to layers of costs for browsing? 3. I thought you are talking about a money benefit. What's with the sudden change? The TV or the router isn't bringing you any money benefit. Also having a 21 inc device will not bring you 0 benefit as you say. Check point 2 for the benefits. Why should I pay you 1M$ for 1M satoshis? You are doing the reverse thing of what 21 inc is doing. They are not charging you a premium. They are giving you a discounted appliance with a small extra power requirement. Nobody is taking your money to give you back less. You will get a discounted phone or appliance and you will have to pay a small extra amount on your power bill. And by small that means less than 5$/month in my opinion. Those money go to your electricity provider, not to 21 inc. Let's say you will pay 5$/month on power. I assume that the mined satoshis will be between 0.5 and 3$/month which you can use for various things like micropayments without any other hassle like an exchanger. People are missing the point.
Your smartphone won't mine on battery power. Your smartphone will mine when it's fully charged but still plugged into the power outlet. Let's say you leave your phone on your charger for 10 hours a day. Take 2.5 hours to charge, you have 7.5 hours of mining.
Yes people are missing the point because they are stubborn. But mining only when plugged would be a fail imo. Or at least for cell phones. Better to put the chips in routers because those things stay 24/7 plugged in the power outlet and to the internet. |
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How does it make their phones or toasters or ipads or whatever more secure? It wouldn't. It also wouldn't give them discounts. In fact, from what I understand, 21 inc wants to add various layers of costs to browsing the internet that we don't have now. Potentially just trying to go to google.com will cost you say 0.00001BTC. It's not bringing you savings, it's adding costs, and forcing you to pay them.
And again, just having btc doesn't make your device more secure. That's just silly. In fact, if I had 10000BTC on my laptop, chances are it's less secure since more people might try to hack it.
And finally, we don't run devices that bring revenue. However, they bring some other sort of benefit. This doesn't give ANY benefit. All it does is eat electricity. That's the difference.
I said it will make the bitcoin network more secure, not their appliances. I don't know from where you got the information that 21 inc wants to add various layers of costs for browsing the internet. Maybe you would enlighten me. How much revenue is the TV bringing to you? What about your router? This will bring a benefit. You will earn some satoshis. Less than the power cost, but it will be that small that you will not be able to get it from somewhere else. The average user? Really? I don't see my mom or my siblings caring whether the Bitcoin network is strong or not.
They will care if they will want to use their earned satoshis.
People care even less about the security benefits than the additional cost per month.
And how much do you think that will be? I imagine it being less than 5$/month. Who cares about an extra 5$/month if they can afford a smartphone and a data plan for it? Actually it might be ~1$/month and also people charge their smartphone at work and in various places. It will not be only in their homes. |
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Negligible or not, the cost of running the mining chip would exceed its benefit.
Since when do we have to only run electrical devices that bring more revenue than their power cost? Since the cost is negligible then why does it matter that it will eat more power than what it will produce? And why do you only measure the bitcoins that the devices make? Why doesn't anyone think about the security that comes with it? The problem is not hardware price, but energy costs. And the end user will lose more dollars in electricity bills than bitcoins from mining.
See my above reply. Nobody cares about a few extra dollars (<5$/month) on their power bill and nobody will care how many bitcoin will the device produce. They will care more about the added security of the bitcoin p2p network and the discounts that they will receive. The most surprising thing is that people have invested millions of dollars into this horrible idea. I keep thinking that here must be more to it that isn't obvious. It's a good idea. Well having a mining chip in mobile phones seems a bit strange, but having them in routers seems like a very good idea to me. If they can pull it off on the mobiles in a way to not eat the battery fast then they are the winners. Don't underestimate the stupidity of consumers. Most people don't understand mining or the power costs and they won't do the research. "New smartphone for $100? Where do I sign!"
It's how the iPhones got their success so I don't understand your point here. |
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So who is paying for the power? 21 mentions talk of subsidizing pieces of hardware by including a Bitcoin miner - however this costs much more in power while it will generate less and less bitcoin the longer the device exists. This essentially costs the user more money in the long run.
You do realize that the power cost would be negligible. What's with everyone's obsession with the power costs? |
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Does KnC still honors refunds in bitcoin?
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Ken did entrust his keys to irretrievable Gox.
Considering the outrageous lie about InteliHash you must be really naive to think that this scammer was keeping so many bitcoins on that exchange. |
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Why should this be discussed again? There's actually more than enough information here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0I do not think that Bitcoin should be limited by a little amount of transactions (currently less than 4 tps). I felt like there was no central place to discuss this. The 20MB Fork thread is closed and your quoted thread has a misleading title. What makes this thread the "official" one instead of any of the others?
Nothing. I feel that this would be easier to find. If people like the others the this one will just die. Apparently the main problem is the blockchain will become even bigger so people running nodes will be more prone to run out of hard disk space.
But the price of $/TB is shrinking. |
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My comments indicate the need for a ROI only from the perspective of the investors and owners of 21 Inc and the consumers making the miscalculation. I am thus making the assumption most users will make the irrational decision and mine btc on these units even though they will never see a ROI just like they are doing so now with other forms of mining. Now you totally lost me. In your previous post you are showing some ROI calculations from the consumer perspective. Now you are talking about 21 Inc perspective. Make up your mind or at least separate them more visible. Let's make it easy. Consumer ROI: From my perspective this doesn't exist because this shouldn't be the main reason of buying 21 Inc products. I see it just like a device that uses more power. Period. Because if TP-LINK suddenly has an increase of 5W power consumption nobody would notice. As I said before nobody is buying a router (or any alike equipment) based on its power consumption. Also anyone that has enough money to buy a router and to keep it 24/7 plugged in can very easily support an added cost of 1$/month (a maximum approximate) because this also implies that they can also pay for an internet subscription and for a device that can surf on the internet. A 1$/month for this type of consumer isn't noticeable. Company ROI: There are various methods of them getting ROI. The profit from selling these types of devices must be the last method of them doing that. You need to be creative. They can sell the company to someone else, they can deploy hashpower before selling consumer devices, they can have some patents and B2B partnerships etc. I'm using real life numbers instead of speculating for a reason. The reason is because with PoW improvements in efficiency only leads to short term profits as difficulty re-adjusts. Thus if I speculate with you and assume that 0.07W/GH can be realized than those efficiency gains will be quickly lost by a change in difficulty. You have to keep in mind that those coffee warmers and ASIC routers will be competing with 14nm chips in industrial ASICs in a warehouse where power and ventilation is cheap and plentiful. There are multiple ASIC companies in this space all competing for more efficient chips and 21 doesn't exist in a vacuum. So sure , we can assume 10w @ 200 GH/s... heck , lets lets fantasize of 5w @ 400 GH/s.... you do understand that the ROI is largely dependent upon the total share of the hashing power and not the amount of GH/s? With those new chips that router will need a much higher GH/s to get a decent share of the block reward and tx fees . Thus in order to get an appropriate hashing share that router will need to be an energy hog to make any business sense from 21 eyes.
Don't get me wrong, I want this to happen and hope 21 is successful. I am just not going to let them do it be misleading their customers. I would rather motivate them to produce a product which was genuinely innovative by reusing waste heat and thus benefited everyone.
You are using real life numbers from chips with a bigger node than what 21 Inc plans. So from start you have the wrong data to start the comparison. Excuse me? ASIC routers will be competing with industrial ASICs? Read this post again please: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1053412.msg11324501#msg11324501 We are talking about 50 Eh/s. I will let you explain how can someone deploy more than 1Eh/s industrially in a warehouse because it is your statement. Again you are talking about a ROI for a router. That doesn't exist. It is explained above. You simply don't understand or you refuse to accept it. |
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Pardon for my brashness but you seem to be making a few assumptions without calculating the profitability.
An efficient ASIC has a Power Efficiency of ~ 0.51 J/GH. Thus you are suggesting that these routers will be producing ~ 5GH for 10W. A router will use around ~6watts and you are suggesting adding another 10 to that with the ASIC .
0.07 kWh = Immediate loss of 0.0289 USD a week.
0.16 kWh = Immediate loss of 0.1801 USD a week
Free Electricity = Total gross profit of 5.48 USD after 3.3 years = 1.37 usd in btc issued to consumer in 3.3 years and 4.11 USD in 3.3 years going to 21 inc (assuming extremely conservative difficulty increase of 3% month)
So no... it will not just be a paltry 10w ... as no one in their right mind will offer a discounted router for 4 dollars over 3.3 years in potential gross profit. This means in order for them to have a chance of profiting with free electricity these routers will be probably using at least 200-500 watts ... they will be little mini space heaters essentially that will have a noticeable impact upon ones electrical bill of between 10 dollars(200w @ 0.07 kWh) to 58 dollars (500w @ 0.16 kWh) more a month.
I'm starting to feel that we have different visions about this and we are getting nowhere with this discussion. Don't compare current ASICs with what 21inc is trying to do. They are totally different things. They plan to have a 14nm/16nm chip. Here you can see an estimate closer to reality: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1053412.msg11324501#msg11324501 While I remain conservative about that power consumption I do believe that Qualcom knows a thing or two about low powered chips. If KnC (a company that exists since 2013) announced 0.07W/GH then Qualcom must do better considering their experience. I don't understand why are you making ROI calculations. I find that 10W extra per month will not bother anyone. I keep my router plugged 24/7 and it produces nothing. Why should that change if it had a bitcoin mining chip in it? Do you keep the router online all the time? The extra added cost is less than 1 coffee/1 coke bottle/etc. It's 1 dollar per month. It's nothing! Why do you suddenly expect a ROI from something that was never supposed to bring any ROI? |
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We should be more cynical and not assume 21 business proposal can survive based upon the charity of clients alone.
We shouldn't assume that all humans act rationally in their long term best interest either.
It is still possible that 21 can design an appliance that is profitable for both them and their clients if waste heat is recycled. (although a challenging task to do right)
Lets assume that the above isn't Immediately accomplished and these ASIC appliances aren't wise investments and that free router will cost 100 dollars in electricity over 2 years after 25% mining profits are deducted and a similar router can be purchased for 50USD new.
Who will be their demographic of buyers?
1) Individuals who cannot afford 50 dollars but need a router and can afford 4 dollars a month in electricity
2) Individuals who don't pay for electricity themselves (I.E.. renters/kids) or have already a fixed sunk cost on renewable energy solutions with extra watts to spare
3) Individuals who are concerned about privacy and prefer virgin coins and don't want to spend 8% more on localbitcoins
and waste their time(depends upon if virgin coins will be shared by 21 or not and if you can buy ASIC appliance retail )
4) Bitcoin enthusiasts who want to be "miners" or support the network
5) Idiots who cannot do the math and believe it is a wise investment
Those 5 categories constitute a very large demographic.
Who said anything abut the charity of the clients? There are various way where they can get their money. They can have a deal with TP-LINK for example to integrate the chips into their routers and TP-LINK pays them to do it. Recycling heat in a consumer appliance seems too complicated. They need to keep it simple for start then move on to complex stuff. Stop talking about poor piss people. They will pay for that router with the added benefit that they support a p2p payment network that fucks the banks in the ass. Remember that the router will have an energy cost no matter if it has bitcoin mining ASIC chips or not. Who gets a router already knows that he will pay for some power and as stated before for a 10W extra the consumer will pay 32$/year extra in terms of electricity. Nobody checks the power requirements of the routers so I am sure that most will not even notice an added 10W. Nobody will buy such a router for the mining profits. They will buy if because it is at a discounted price or in a promotion or because they just want to support a free p2p payment network. No need to complicate things. |
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