This is my point the risk is there and the customer took it small, big w/e the customer floated the risk thats all i am saying at this point. There isnt a guarentee of refunds hence why i belive it should have been called an investment and not a pre-order.
We seem to be on the same page here. I disagree about the gaming analogy, you are buying a game for entertainment (more like buying movie passes or concert tickets) and there is virtually no chance of "making an ROI". Games are designed and sold as entertainment ASIC hardware is not sold for entertainment.
I'm not sure you understand what a return on investment is..but you can make one on anything, it just doesn't have to be positive  And ASICs can be quite entertaining when put in front of the right audience  What all the vendors have done is ask for an investement/ interest free loan from the community but called it pre-orders..
By the way why didnt they go to a bank or an investement firm for R&D costs? I am guessing an interest free loan from the community was much easier to get and much more economically appealing...
You might want to go back and check your facts on that one. Avalon, BFL, and bASIC all had income from their FPGA sales, which primarily fueled their ASIC development. Butterfly Labs also has outside funding besides their previous sales. Whether or not each company used preorder funds to help in the development process is up for debate, but my hunch is that most companies took the more ethical route. And for all we know, others could have gotten external funding as well. It's not like they're publicly traded companies with the requirement to disclose such information. |
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It might depend on shipping, but why would you buy one unit and three upgrades for $3000 when you could just buy two units for $3000? If you really want to space, gut one unit, mount the three boards in the other, and sell the PSU and other stuff.
Ha, indeed! They never said running a business was their strongest trait..all those silly pricing models get in the way of engineering! |
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The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable
How so? The only one that's done it so far is Avalon... Any company that takes pre-order money for a product that simply does not exist yet is putting all the risk on buyer. So, I'm assuming all the risk when I go over to GameStop and preorder the next latest title 6-12 months in advance? I understand the point your trying to make, but if refunds are a feasible option for the customer "investor", then the risk is limited. Hence why Avalon is the riskiest investment opportunity out there right now...once you give them your money, that's it..nothing else you can do except wait for your product. At least with BFL (and bASIC there for a while) you can get a refund immediately. With ASICMiner you can just sell your shares (though I'm not sure how liquid they are). |
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Interesting...that's what my room would look like had I bought all Avalon units instead of BFL ones  You mean that you will have an empty room? Oh snap! * BA DUM, Tish* |
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Anyhow, I am doing much better on the investment side than I was rolling the dice, how about you guys?
In at .0037 and still holding  |
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I like the changes.  I hope you'll give us plenty of warning prior to opening the 2nd batch order window. Nice. For $3,000 (not including shipping) you can have a 900 watt 'desktop' sized box running at 132GH/s. I suppose that's decent if you're thinking of short term gains. |
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Wasn't their last delay allegedly because they were too incompetent inexperienced to recognize that plastic is a poor heat conductor and therefore plastic packaging is a bad idea for their application? Maybe it was a couple delays ago, I can't even keep track of their excuses anymore.
You had it right the first time with incompetent  |
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I have a question about the "payment processor" Do we have to sent BTC through it, or we can simply sent them directly from our BTC wallet? thanks My guess is that it will work in a similar fashion to BitPay, where you start your order and WalletBit gives you an address to send BTC to...then you send your coins from whatever wallet you have to the provided address. I'm not sure Avalon is doing direct payments in BTC. |
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The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable
How so? The only one that's done it so far is Avalon... |
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Interesting...that's what my room would look like had I bought all Avalon units instead of BFL ones |
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Sure their first post is "unprofessional", but they're not asking you to send millions of dollars before there's any proof the hardware exists...
Not directly, true. But I was under the impression it was implied after they noted "not to by from BFL, Avalon, or bASIC" since they're "all lies". I suppose that leaves ASICMiner |
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But I still don't understand why don't they post some undeniable proof, and make me and people like me sthu one and forever.
They've tried...but you keep letting your paranoia get the best of you  |
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bASIC is dead! End of story. No viable entity worth their salt would touch this with a barge-pole.
Well, I'm not so sure about this. If bASIC had a viable (albeit poorly run) strategy before and basic chip processes nailed down, I don't see why another company couldn't come in, take over, and clean up the mess left over. However, the keyboard vomit that is that wall of text isn't indicative of a "professional company" coming in...at least none that I've ever seen. It looks like some kid on Adderall sat down and started trying to type something convincing. I am curious to see how this plays out, even though they're not getting any business from me. |
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We buy and sell virtual shares (colored coins).
I believe the colored coins project has now reached enough maturity for traders to begin to actively buy and sell virtual assets based on the BitcoinX protocol.
Profits from sales of our virtual shares will gain the developers working on our GitHub projects. You can simultaneously make a profit and support teams of good developers by buying and selling our GitCoins.
Please check the link in the signature for more info.
Sooo... I buy shares. My money then goes to "developers working on GitHub projects". And then these developers..give more money back, increasing the value of my shares? You're going to need vastly more detail if you're looking to establish yourself here ..MPOE-PR is normally terribly brash, but from time to time she does make good points, especially when it comes to working business models. |
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Yes I had read all those words.
And for a professional company that has dealt with the military, all of those grammatical mistakes do not make me a believer.
Definitely. For a "huge corporate electronics manufacturer" they seem to have terrible marketing and PR skills. Their website screams "Look! Look! Don't worry about the past with us, and don't buy from BFL! Preorder and we'll ship in March, I promise!". |
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Hey... you can get an Avalon unit to do 720 GH/s. It's totally easy. Just put 12 BFL singles in the case. Just a bit more wattage than a 4 card Avalon and you'll have room to spare AND you'll get almost 3/4 of a TH out of an Avalon. You could even re-use the power supply and the control board! Puerto, you're right. I was wrong. The Avalon is modular enough that you can throw out or sell those Avalon chips and put BFL cards in them! That is a killer feature. Ha, you could fit, what, 6-9 Single boards in Avalon's case? And it has built in fans, so that's convenient |
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20.50
lol. @Fimp, you might want to lock this thread now |
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I did find some of Jeff's notes a bit disconcerting though.
If that box works for 1 month with periodic restarts and then fries itself into a ball of molten plastic, Jeff will still have seen a very nice ROI that is hard to find anywhere else. He made almost 15BTC in less than a day, it's probably paid for itself already by now... That may be true, but my concerns aren't with just his unit. My thought was that his unit would sort of foretell the problems with other units. Jeff and a number of others may be able to make quite the ROI, but there's a chance that there are a number of others who could receive a product that doesn't meet the standards currently set. Why do you think that? I would guess it's the other way around; this is the unit that was put together in a panicked last minute rush with whatever parts were closest at hand in order to get it out the door. Future versions might be the ones with newer and better tested software, fans that all match, the right cord, the wifi antenna included, etc, etc.
I see your point, and it does make sense. The way I thought about it was sort of the opposite; ship out the best working product they had on hand so it could be reviewed...fully complete or not. The object would be to make the best impression before the start of the "no refunds" batch #2. |
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I assumed the community would prefer that I write about the machine, rather than keep silent and mine.
Maybe I was wrong?
Don't let anyone convince you differently; the work and updates you've posted so far are a tremendous help to all of us here. Keep up the fantastic work! |
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Very nice! Haha I love how BFL was first to the ASIC game and they end up finishing last. But, I do understand that developing for 65nm is a bit more difficult than 110nm (Avalon) or 130nm (ASICMiner). Still... |
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