[ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency

[jgarzik]

I don't know if this is some sort of bug or attack or someone testing stuff. There has been 3 user transactions so far on the block chain. If anyone has more info about this let me know.

Did you change 'pchMessageStart'? If not someone who accidentally connects to the bitcoin network with ppcoin will bridge them and IP addresses will be shared. Could this result in bitcoin transactions being sent (and rejected) to ppcoin?

Hmm you are right I didn't change that. That's why I guess I saw some 17k new addresses in the log.

If it's needed I guess we can change this in a future release with a network protocol upgrade. Hopefully it doesn't cause too many problems at the moment.

It is very important to change pchMessageStart.  This will cause all manner of software confusion, because peers with the same pchMessageStart will exchange addresses and otherwise think they are talking with peers of the same network and block chain.

A hard fork is not required to change pchMessageStart, just a tiny bit of bootstrapping.  Blockchain integrity is not impacted.

[1715146214]

1715146214

[Sunny King]

This probably indicates that a transaction message of incompatible format was received. Remember ppcoin's transaction has an extra timestamp field than bitcoin's.

I don't know if this is some sort of bug or attack or someone testing stuff. There has been 3 user transactions so far on the block chain. If anyone has more info about this let me know.

Did you test this coin before release?

Why did you change the difficulty calculation?

I think you played with too much, without considering the consequences and drawbacks.

Actually I think I did a not too shabby job with the difficulty as you can see we went from 256 to 3000 in less than 3 days and block generation adjusted beautifully.

Otherwise you'd been seeing lots of blocks coming in seconds apart.

[Sunny King]

I don't know if this is some sort of bug or attack or someone testing stuff. There has been 3 user transactions so far on the block chain. If anyone has more info about this let me know.

Did you change 'pchMessageStart'? If not someone who accidentally connects to the bitcoin network with ppcoin will bridge them and IP addresses will be shared. Could this result in bitcoin transactions being sent (and rejected) to ppcoin?

Hmm you are right I didn't change that. That's why I guess I saw some 17k new addresses in the log.

If it's needed I guess we can change this in a future release with a network protocol upgrade. Hopefully it doesn't cause too many problems at the moment.

It is very important to change pchMessageStart.  This will cause all manner of software confusion, because peers with the same pchMessageStart will exchange addresses and otherwise think they are talking with peers of the same network and block chain.

A hard fork is not required to change pchMessageStart, just a tiny bit of bootstrapping.  Blockchain integrity is not impacted.

Thanks for the tips. I will look into changing it for next release. Best Regards,

[cunicula]

Proof-of-work mint rate is a function of difficulty (every 16x in difficulty mint rate is halved)

Is this the correct interpretation of this statement?

Difficulty Mint Rate
x                   y
16x                y/2
256x              y/4
4096x            y/8
65536x          y/16
1048576x       y/32
16777216x      y/64
268435456x    y/128

Seems like a timespan somewhere between many years and never will elapse before proof-of-work rewards become minimal and the currency becomes energy efficient. This seems like a bad idea to me. It does not inspire confidence in the protocol's ability to deliver its promised features. I think demonstrating successful, checkpointless, and energy efficient operation should be a near-term goal. Perhaps showstopping problems will come up. Fine, once we know about them, they can likely be solved (and checkpoints can be used as a stopgap measure).

[Sunny King]

Update: FAQ page is now available on wiki

[Sunny King]

Proof-of-work mint rate is a function of difficulty (every 16x in difficulty mint rate is halved)

Is this the correct interpretation of this statement?

Difficulty Mint Rate
x                   y
16x                y/2
256x              y/4
4096x            y/8
65536x          y/16
1048576x       y/32
16777216x      y/64
268435456x    y/128

Seems like a timespan somewhere between many years and never will elapse before proof-of-work rewards become minimal and the currency becomes energy efficient. This seems like a bad idea to me. It does not inspire confidence in the protocol's ability to deliver its promised features. I think demonstrating successful, checkpointless, and energy efficient operation should be a near-term goal. Perhaps showstopping problems will come up. Fine, once we know about them, they can likely be solved (and checkpoints can be used as a stopgap measure).

Well points taken. Yes it'll take many years but if I had picked a more drastic curve folks would complain even louder about pump & dump, ponzi, etc. whatnot. So this was picked to better match the 4 year halving schedule of Satoshi's. As for long term energy efficiency, I don't think it's too much of an issue as once the design principles are validated as sound and Moore's Law slows down, the mint rate slow down can be switched to a time based decay with proper long term planning.

[cunicula]

Well points taken. Yes it'll take many years but if I had picked a more drastic curve folks would complain even louder about pump & dump, ponzi, etc. whatnot. So this was picked to better match the 4 year halving schedule of Satoshi's. As for long term energy efficiency, I don't think it's too much of an issue as once the design principles are validated as sound and Moore's Law slows down, the mint rate slow down can be switched to a time based decay with proper long term planning.

The design principles must be fully validated to a high degree of confidence in the near-term. People won't wait years for a clear validation of the design. The pump & dump, ponzi issues are irrelevant and should be of far lower priority.

I suggest that you radically modify the rules, aiming to achieve energy efficient operation within a few months of launch. Even if this fails due to lack of interest, it will be quite valuable to know whether the underlying protocol works as advertised.

[killerstorm]

Perhaps showstopping problems will come up.

What do you mean by "perhaps"? We already know it doesn't work without centralized timestamping. PoW and PoS in this design do pretty much nothing to secure the network, and even if some algorithm will be invented to fix it, it would be simply another currency since rules will change dramatically.

it will be quite valuable to know whether the underlying protocol works as advertised.

Well, yeah.

Proper way to do this: discuss algorithm beforehands, try the idea on a disposable testnet first, and only then release it as a "permanent" currency.

Improper way to do this: release half-baked, not well thought out version as a currency.

Now thinking about it, WHY would you do it in the improper way if not for pump & dump? I see absolutely no other reasons.

High PoW mint rate is also great for pump and dump: this way people can just use existing mining infrastructure to get coins, thinking that they will be valuable one day, and thinking that they are doing something worthwile.

Even if Sunny King has good intents and is just delusional, he behaves EXACTLY like pump-and-dumper, I can't think of a better scheme. (Well, PoS which would actually work would be better, but it would take much more time to develop a working scheme.)

[cunicula]

Proper way to do this: discuss algorithm beforehands, try the idea on a disposable testnet first, and only then release it as a "permanent" currency.

Improper way to do this: release half-baked, not well thought out version as a currency.

Whatever, he is doing something experimental. Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all. Therefore, props for experimenting the improper way. Just hope that the 'improper' experiment can be redesigned to produce useful information in finite time.

[markm]

Yeah, some truth there. I tried once upon a time to get a definite formula to code for a proof of stake and it all vapourised, turned out there was not yet any actual concrete design ready to code.

-MarkM-

[galambo]

Actually I think I did a not too shabby job with the difficulty as you can see we went from 256 to 3000 in less than 3 days and block generation adjusted beautifully.

Otherwise you'd been seeing lots of blocks coming in seconds apart.

No, you did a shabby job. You'll understand why later.

May your coin serve as a warning to the community.

That is, if PPCoin hasn't already failed for some other reason at 3 non-coinbase transactions, as the error message may indicate.

[Sunny King]

The design principles must be fully validated to a high degree of confidence in the near-term. People won't wait years for a clear validation of the design. The pump & dump, ponzi issues are irrelevant and should be of far lower priority.

I suggest that you radically modify the rules, aiming to achieve energy efficient operation within a few months of launch. Even if this fails due to lack of interest, it will be quite valuable to know whether the underlying protocol works as advertised.

If you learn enough details from the paper I believe you should be able to understand that the proof-of-work mint rate curve is pretty irrelevant in evaluating whether the design solves energy efficiency. Proof-of-work is not used in any meaningful manner in the protection of the network, it mainly provides minting.

[killerstorm]

Whatever, he is doing something experimental. Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all. Therefore, props for experimenting the improper way. Just hope that the 'improper' experiment can be redesigned to produce useful information in finite time.

Coblee now has a proposal to integrate a form of PoS into Litecoin. But he first asks experts on forum whether they see vulnerabilities.

If he'll find a solution which works, I doubt he'll have any problems integrating it into Litecoin. So I disagree that "Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all."

Yes, many things fail, but that's probably because they shouldn't exist.

[cunicula]

Coblee now has a proposal to integrate a form of PoS into Litecoin. But he first asks experts on forum whether they see vulnerabilities.

If he'll find a solution which works, I doubt he'll have any problems integrating it into Litecoin. So I disagree that "Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all."

Yes, many things fail, but that's probably because they shouldn't exist.

If PPCoin had never been released, would Coblee still be motivated to bring forward a proposal related to PoS?

I think the answer is probably no.

[cunicula]

If you learn enough details from the paper I believe you should be able to understand that the proof-of-work mint rate curve is pretty irrelevant in evaluating whether the design solves energy efficiency. Proof-of-work is not used in any meaningful manner in the protection of the network, it mainly provides minting.

I would like to see your flying machine operate without any proof-of-work or checkpoint contraptions in the vicinity. Demonstrating this is the easiest way of showing the world that you have constructed a proof-of-stake flying machine.

You are saying that proof-of-work and checkpoints play no role in the actual flying process. That may be the case. However, for outsiders to be able to verify this, the protocol and paper have to be very transparent. The paper would have to provide a much more detailed explanation of the protocol than it does currently. Even if you provide a perfectly detailed explanation, many people will remain unconvinced. You are asking people to do work to verify your claims, but people are lazy.

[NothinG]

http://46.166.138.142/stats.php

I modified the site to show pending confirmations of blocks.

How do I determine the block number from the listtransactions?
Also, how do I determine the PPC per block if it changes so dynamically?


-Heading to work, hopefully I can get some answers so I can finish the pool up. Also, when I get back...hopefully we can see at least some confirmed blocks...meaning I can finally start handing out coins.

Here is the current found blocks and their solutions on the pool.

Code:

<?php
/**
 * Export to PHP Array plugin for PHPMyAdmin
 * @version 0.2b
 */

// `shares`
$shares = array(
  array('id' => '597','time' => '2012-08-22 03:34:33','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010ff735d21115d1593885a78e862f707fd867c02909fe50c40015d6ba0000000041d23220933ea6c31ff86bae8fbe3095152fee258f8402111197e7f0f28168e750341b331b165dec169556c7000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000'),
  array('id' => '2786','time' => '2012-08-22 04:12:31','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010f038fbad2fc41bbaad7333115e6cd4123e56bc68cf33ff0000d732e00000000914c4a6cf902925d05bddb0920fe95ed4affade3bdc2924dbca2f56ab172f74d503424271b1634d557fbc27d000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '5775','time' => '2012-08-22 04:53:50','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001b7dd851ea7f4338672a9e91dd2f6b292801c01c16aff913c0007aa5200000000b4698e81e6400a79ad27bc8671ea0b5f757a1267490b4d2dd923628b7ac8da0250342da91b160c2a5085cf44000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '8918','time' => '2012-08-22 05:37:17','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010656a3e8773cd882142942fb0850580e150a37866c6193890011fda300000000ba49b9783222ae0168e8ba1e9575cc4840bdcce1b9074b9fd494b0263ce62a82503438001b160a482b5535b7000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '13867','time' => '2012-08-22 06:46:44','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001bb9e1cf3285c09063fd38b9884457e859c8de6eac75ca5b2000b7ced00000000280e7a5f06d6deaeacf8d40a8802e64cfd6fef85321238a4146e95b57d4c4d6f5034484f1b15d77c2000b1a5000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '15131','time' => '2012-08-22 07:06:53','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000119e6927b16bb48794b87d5e8a12894ee4a618f0ed2391bb9000c069600000000915568f9005f7b3272aac088c0b31d765c7f8cc088cd4c67be16cca9b3d2c4a850344cd41b15d82f4793e3a6000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '19354','time' => '2012-08-22 08:14:54','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000114b51ee146f6075f8069dbd8560e5d7fc484e8c2bd4159250008a5cb00000000662028d615f0c9085a286f3e7c89779072e4287d2e496270552315637e3d2ec650345cfb1b15a8cac0be22b9000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '20865','time' => '2012-08-22 08:38:18','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000013d6ca03f350bdedac15cb602361a0fa25460da8876b998330005060b00000000a062c52b36f6774991a34bfd5c35b23d6a40b4a2079b8318f24eb6ec26c36c075034623f1b159643516c8629000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '21126','time' => '2012-08-22 08:42:27','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000163afad8f6f528491a8a3876e8383bcc295c496cbf6f2839d00118b0c0000000023ed0c68b82c3e12d312ac01e41ec8a55cb92b62b026bf6fdbf8414d9c963a2b5034633e1b1599ad7770397f000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '21699','time' => '2012-08-22 08:50:42','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000017b8e63d5ff5028b488bf8b440718cd2fe88e10bdd694f91300035b6a0000000094130b31674cb572e9b0313d67608ff0c7ce5733b17b6016766ba83ca34e21c35034652a1b158ce8a85543d9000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '27957','time' => '2012-08-22 10:17:56','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001372bb1c6719cd18bb5e728d12599f0bd59c9ac95202a3dbd00070eb400000000bd0be8d8892a2f58e9db250d21168d6e70b6f231662c17c49adc765a7d4d1eb4503479a21b154082a3189046000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '28457','time' => '2012-08-22 10:25:11','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010657889db83ffbe147da79c33837e8249284ea5b79b40d5a0013e442000000001bcf9351e3c765cbdd15a37aee07715ed24a3a7cd997b2bc1191b077afe82bb350347b641b152d4fb86cc61f000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '30022','time' => '2012-08-22 10:47:36','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000012e85bf31063ff59bb1dfb051f42c20bad87ac4d1353cef7c0007b7f500000000c2c47050e9938f3a39642c489928c5e6c075bf6cee59738b638f7975cebf8f025034808d1b151585876d2cc8000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '36261','time' => '2012-08-22 12:49:02','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001f200bd0990dc2c8fd2b5e48bafde26b0080af28bf866ae920004190400000000daac7a30ce9caad379f8e32fde6c510354319e14dbb5d6dbc19d80502d0e1f8150349d061b14a6e45588cbdc000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '41286','time' => '2012-08-22 14:27:11','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001d7f543b1eac0bb78b9b14b80c402916188232db6aee45aab00058c6400000000724e0ceaaea979916e66c33f5017029b88b248a1343274202635b4b8467f73175034b41a1b142bb17b78f9de000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '44190','time' => '2012-08-22 15:21:14','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000158e45ba3463f72f9fd40ba360516151351e9d72dcf4584890005a9d400000000e73ae85dc017d7f35474ad410fe22cf780ba34b27f4720edadc336c5da5e7a9f5034c0b71b13f09d63580d2c000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '51954','time' => '2012-08-22 17:55:52','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000153e1d0278be74e323880f648a64f037fc125b0d323bce7e5000ac98e000000008553ca8db01c22bfb0f9a62fa68458c89b85685cd6dfe3d8c0917b0a19da34015034e5251b13bdc82f5c1596000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '54813','time' => '2012-08-22 18:58:53','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000196fabab7fd4763269de792be8fedafe062bdd80b896b34410004672100000000e914a234157840ab8a3aa900846ae5b41c5daa7322bf21a5e6558cf51e9881425034f3b81b139f29f65b4715000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '58282','time' => '2012-08-22 20:14:49','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000148e78d64f222fda8d110e2c520eff8d8985ac67143adcd3d0003d9f2000000001bd1c27cdfa8b0e068749afdedb23bcf05807a1a887f52230e12a45ea719f814503505b51b138b7ad2639823000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '58461','time' => '2012-08-22 20:18:22','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001cf024d7012af313c901b6f72b4182e53ef46c7962c9f40380006b766000000008926160f4169ca4855098d5f3c44ca095718620112b03be867f864f5c43b98e3503506571b1389df294c03e2000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '59731','time' => '2012-08-22 20:46:15','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001dc5ae1275c137fc6e6e48d725e26270e6405fb5cdc262e4b000680bd0000000089a7be46076596629833241c2886bec427325bcc87ea8066214d76a9332c90c450350ce21b137277035256c2000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000')
);

[pooler]

Coblee now has a proposal to integrate a form of PoS into Litecoin. But he first asks experts on forum whether they see vulnerabilities.

If he'll find a solution which works, I doubt he'll have any problems integrating it into Litecoin. So I disagree that "Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all."

Yes, many things fail, but that's probably because they shouldn't exist.

If PPCoin had never been released, would Coblee still be motivated to bring forward a proposal related to PoS?

In #litecoin-dev, iddo and coblee have been having lengthy discussions on proof-of-stake for quite some time now. I don't keep logs, but I'm 100% sure these discussions predate the initial PPCoin announcement.

[doublec]

How do I determine the block number from the listtransactions?

If ppcoin has 'getblock' then you can "getblock" on the hash of the block and that gives the block height.

Also, how do I determine the PPC per block if it changes so dynamically?

A way to do it is to determine the reward for the block associated with the work you've given a user and compute the PPS specific to the value of that block for the shares they return. That's if you're paying PPS s shares are submitted. If you're paying after a block is found you can use "getblock" to find the value and compute the PPS from that.

[maxcarjuzaa]

I'm interested to find out more about this coin. Looking at the code, it seems like Sunny has indeed been working on this since November of last year. So it's unfortunate that he decided to do kind of a rush launch of the coin. The information about how a coin works should really be announced and analyzed by the community before the blockchain is started. Now miners have to decide whether they want to jump in without knowing what they are really supporting or wait until more information is released. Couple this with the fact that the block generation starts at 9999 and decreases as difficulty increases, this coin might turn out to have a larger effective premine than SolidCoin.

+1

[NothinG]

How do I determine the block number from the listtransactions?

If ppcoin has 'getblock' then you can "getblock" on the hash of the block and that gives the block height.

Also, how do I determine the PPC per block if it changes so dynamically?

A way to do it is to determine the reward for the block associated with the work you've given a user and compute the PPS specific to the value of that block for the shares they return. That's if you're paying PPS s shares are submitted. If you're paying after a block is found you can use "getblock" to find the value and compute the PPS from that.

Thank you.

I ran into another problem, I was hoping would be fixed by the time I got home.

Code:

root@mein:~# ./ppcoind listtransactions
[
    {
        "account" : "",
        "category" : "immature",
        "amount" : 1332.23000000,
        "confirmations" : 152,
        "blockhash" : "00000000000835d38da340a876046e3cad00f034649f477e0f334b98a8903785",
        "blockindex" : 0,
        "txid" : "2d0e1f81c19d8050dbb5d6db54319e14de6c510379f8e32fce9caad3daac7a30",
        "time" : 1345625404
    },

So, how many confirmations does it take for it to "mature"?

Code:

root@mein:~# ./ppcoind getinfo
{
    "version" : "v0.1.0ppc-beta",
    "protocolversion" : 60001,
    "walletversion" : 60000,
    "balance" : 0.00000000,
    "newmint" : 47428.28000000,
    "stake" : 0.00000000,
    "blocks" : 1795,
    "connections" : 25,
    "proxy" : "",
    "ip" : "46.166.138.142",
    "difficulty" : 3510.57591109,
    "testnet" : false,
    "keypoololdest" : 1345415511,
    "keypoolsize" : 101,
    "paytxfee" : 0.01000000,
    "errors" : ""
}

I still show a 0 balance. Are the "newmint" coins movable? (I don't think I've even tested that yet...)