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Author Topic: IOTA  (Read 1103626 times)
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Tobo
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October 24, 2015, 01:14:41 PM
 #201


In this article, the author mentioned one of the biggest challenges for IoT is privacy and security issue - protecting company and customer data. How can IOTA help and do better in this area? 
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October 24, 2015, 01:14:50 PM
 #202

It's not just about making life easier, it's about upping productivity substantially which will bring about a growth in wealth unseen in the history of mankind. The industrial revolution is nothing compared. In the end this technological progression will eventually free mankind from its 'slave' relationship with money and revolutionize virtually every field from medicine to entertainment.

According to the report CfB linked earlier it will not bring wealth "unseen in the history of mankind", it will (according to industry hype at least) bring "impact" of $3.9 trillion to $11.1 trillion which is something like 3%-15% of world GDP. A lot of that will be totally boring but still economically important "impacts" like better automating supply chains. You're overdosing on kool aid.



No. Read again, that'sthe forecast for the next few years.

How about you put down the kool aid and read it for the first time.

"could have a total economic impact of $3.9 trillion to $11.1 trillion per year in 2025"

"We also found that more than two-thirds of value will be generated in business-to-business settings"

That is 10 years away, so taken as an annual growth rate represents between 0.3% and 0.8% per year, assuming it even happens ("could"), and even then will be mostly boring things like supply chain management.


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October 24, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
 #203

In this article, the author mentioned one of the biggest challenges for IoT is privacy and security issue - protecting company and customer data. How can IOTA help and do better in this area? 

Iota gives ability to do off-tangle payments which are known to only 2 parties.
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October 24, 2015, 01:33:37 PM
 #204


How about you put down the kool aid and read it for the first time.

"could have a total economic impact of $3.9 trillion to $11.1 trillion per year in 2025"

"We also found that more than two-thirds of value will be generated in business-to-business settings"

That is 10 years away, so taken as an annual growth rate represents between 0.3% and 0.8% per year, assuming it even happens ("could"), and even then will be mostly boring things like supply chain management.


Hah 'kool aid', what are you talking about? I am going by all the reports that currently exist for IoT. Here is another one from Cisco http://internetofeverything.cisco.com/sites/default/files/docs/en/ioe_public_sector_vas_white%20paper_121913final.pdf and here is another one from   Accenture https://www.accenture.com/us-en/insight-industrial-internet-of-things.aspx . Ballpark numbers are similar, bur vary.

As I alluded to earlier, total economic impact != wealth impact. The economic impact of say the internet does not convert easily into the actual wealth it has brought with it for users. Money is a fickle concept that is extremely hard to measure. What matters is life quality and production. 15 years ago you had CDs with 15 songs, now you got for all practical purposes infinite songs on every device. Media and entertainment has become completely ubiquitous which translates into immeasurable growth in the wealth of entertainment.  
To again draw a parallel back to the industrial revolution, it's impossible to measure how much it impacted society just by looking at the monetary numbers. Instead look at actual output and how it affects lives.

Here there is virtually no controversy among the people in the field, IoT (which is just an umbrella term for technological progression) will bring about wealth impact unlike what has ever been seen before.

As for the numbers in McKinsey report, they point out that improving supply chains is just one fraction of it. I suggest you read it again, this time in entirety.


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October 24, 2015, 01:35:59 PM
 #205


No need to go all ad hominem conspiracy theory.
 

Dude, I'm not a conspiracy theorist I'm a conspiracy analyst, lol.

Quote

I always wonder why people have this idea in their head that the world is always out to 'get them', chip them, trace them and then kill their spirits. Sorry I don't buy this narrative at all.

You're lucky you don't work in an Amazon warehouse. http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon-warehouse-jobs-push-workers-to-physical-limit/

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October 24, 2015, 01:49:07 PM
 #206


I always wonder why people have this idea in their head that the world is always out to 'get them', chip them, trace them and then kill their spirits. Sorry I don't buy this narrative at all.

You're lucky you don't work in an Amazon warehouse. http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon-warehouse-jobs-push-workers-to-physical-limit/


This is a business, you are free to leave whenever you want to. But today you can't if you don't have another job to go to, this is what I said earlier in the thread: today we live in a perpetual state of things that we HAVE TO DO despite of not WANTING to. The reason for this is the good ol' supply and demand that runs the world. My point is that as technology progresses the entire concept of supply will become more and more irrelevant.

We live in a universe with virtualy infinite resources. Now of course anno 2015, we are still stuck on planet earth with limited access to these resources, but as things become digital and automated there are certain things that we have virtually made infinite in supply. Even if you were the richest man on Earth 50 years ago, no amount could buy you a 70" OLED screen or direct access to all accumulated knowledge by mankind in the palm of your hand. Same goes for virtually everything. Electricity? Today we still need to get the majority of it through manual labour intensive means, but as solar, wind, nuclear, water etc. energy goes up, this too become more and more ubiquitous. As systems become more automated, people get more free time, more free time leads to more creativity and innovation as people cando what they really want. We ALL have more free time today than virtually anyone had in the 1990s. How we spend it is of course our own choice.

My point is that this will only continue and continue until we reach a point where we literally have an overabundance of everything (this is long term future, not short term). This will give us MORE freedom, not less, just like it always has.

The concern is of course for the 'transition period' that we are entering, where people lose their jobs when corporations optimize their supply chains, how will these people fare without jobs in this transition period? This is something that requires societal solutions.

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October 24, 2015, 01:51:37 PM
 #207

Here is another one from Cisco

No remote possibility of bias there right? You think Cisco might want to get contracts and sell gear by hyping its economic value?

Quote
Ballpark numbers are similar

Yes they are but Cisco defined its own metric in a way that makes the headline numbers even more obviously exaggerated hype:

Quote
Cisco defines IoE “Value at Stake” as “the potential value that can be created ... based on their ability to harness IoE over the next decade

On other words, the absolute maximum potential amount of value that is possible, not what even Cisco claims to expect to happen.

When annualized Cisco's (by their own definition optimistic) numbers represent a similarly tiny annual rate of <1% and probably well under 1/2%.

BTW, does the IOTA project have any relationship with Cisco that would suggest IOTA will be used in Cisco's (and its customers') IoT deployment efforts?
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October 24, 2015, 01:53:06 PM
 #208

In this article, the author mentioned one of the biggest challenges for IoT is privacy and security issue - protecting company and customer data. How can IOTA help and do better in this area? 
Iota gives ability to do off-tangle payments which are known to only 2 parties.

Will you program IOTA into Jinn chips to be able to make each chip to become a node?
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October 24, 2015, 01:59:53 PM
 #209

Here is another one from Cisco

No remote possibility of bias there right? You think Cisco might want to get contracts and sell gear by hyping its economic value?


Of course. But you don't have to take their word for it, just sit down for a few weeks and go through technological journals and go through all the new innovations that are occuring RIGHT NOW. This is not about putting a chip in everything for the sake of putting a chip into everything, but virtually everything can be optimized and / or be used for new use-cases.

Quote
Cisco defines IoE “Value at Stake” as “the potential value that can be created ... based on their ability to harness IoE over the next decade

On other words, the absolute maximum potential amount of value that is possible, not what even Cisco claims to expect to happen.

When annualized Cisco's (by their own definition optimistic) numbers represent a similarly tiny annual rate of <1% and probably well under 1/2%.

Yes, for DIRECT economic growth related to these devices. This misses the bigger picture and cumulative impact.

Quote
BTW, does the IOTA project have any relationship with Cisco that would suggest IOTA will be used in Cisco's (and its customers') IoT deployment efforts?

IOTA could very well be used by Cisco, but we have no relation directly to them (yet). But the wheels are in motion, we will kickstart this and then the community that forms around IOTA will continue it. There are a lot of use-cases that will be displayed more directly soon Smiley

Personally we are heavily invested in processor technology (developing a new kind of processor) that is being developed with IoT in mind, this is what lead us to realize that we had to utilize our expertise in crypto to develop something like IOTA, since it is absolutely needed for IoT and none of the current crypto projects solve microtransactions.

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October 24, 2015, 02:04:06 PM
 #210

Will you program IOTA into Jinn chips to be able to make each chip to become a node?

You have spoiled an announcement about hardware support of Iota.  Grin
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October 24, 2015, 02:08:08 PM
 #211

Will you program IOTA into Jinn chips to be able to make each chip to become a node?
You have spoiled an announcement about hardware support of Iota.  Grin

Woohoo! Sorry I couldn't help to keep asking because I own some Jinn assets. Grin

edit - then bootstrapping of Iota network will be much likely with the help of Jinn's adoption. Make totally sense. need a massive marketing effort for jinn eventually. 
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October 24, 2015, 02:10:52 PM
 #212


This is a business, you are free to leave whenever you want to. But today you can't if you don't have another job to go to, this is what I said earlier in the thread: today we live in a perpetual state of things that we HAVE TO DO despite of not WANTING to. The reason for this is the good ol' supply and demand that runs the world. My point is that as technology progresses the entire concept of supply will become more and more irrelevant.

We live in a universe with virtualy infinite resources. Now of course anno 2015, we are still stuck on planet earth with limited access to these resources, but as things become digital and automated there are certain things that we have virtually made infinite in supply. Even if you were the richest man on Earth 50 years ago, no amount could buy you a 70" OLED screen or direct access to all accumulated knowledge by mankind in the palm of your hand. Same goes for virtually everything. Electricity? Today we still need to get the majority of it through manual labour intensive means, but as solar, wind, nuclear, water etc. energy goes up, this too become more and more ubiquitous. As systems become more automated, people get more free time, more free time leads to more creativity and innovation as people cando what they really want. We ALL have more free time today than virtually anyone had in the 1990s. How we spend it is of course our own choice.

My point is that this will only continue and continue until we reach a point where we literally have an overabundance of everything (this is long term future, not short term). This will give us MORE freedom, not less, just like it always has.

The concern is of course for the 'transition period' that we are entering, where people lose their jobs when corporations optimize their supply chains, how will these people fare without jobs in this transition period? This is something that requires societal solutions.

Automating human labour (eg. robotics) = More Freedom.

Automating human control and decision making (IoT) = Less Freedom.

You say 'As technology progresses' as if all technology is a single thing which all has the same effect and all technology is by its nature good, but I strongly disagree with that. Technology is like anything else, some inventions are a good idea and some are not. You cannot defend or promote a specific technology based on arguments pertaining to technology in general, somehow suggesting that technology is good and this is technology therefore this is good.

I admire your optimism though.

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October 24, 2015, 02:51:12 PM
 #213


Automating human labour (eg. robotics) = More Freedom.

Automating human control and decision making (IoT) = Less Freedom.

You say 'As technology progresses' as if all technology is a single thing which all has the same effect and all technology is by its nature good, but I strongly disagree with that. Technology is like anything else, some inventions are a good idea and some are not. You cannot defend or promote a specific technology based on arguments pertaining to technology in general, somehow suggesting that technology is good and this is technology therefore this is good.

I admire your optimism though.


I never said that, I specifically said that no technology is black or white, it's nuanced. All technology can be used for both good and bad, from nukes to medicines. The reason I say 'technological progression' is that it is really all it is. There is no clear dividing line for when normal technology and the 'Internet-of-Things' begins, with the exception of connectivity criteria.

When it comes to automating human control I take it you refer to self-driving cars and the like, which will obviously be mandatory in a few decades to prevent auto-accidents. This will become a huge debate quickly, so let's stick to IoT that requires transactions in this thread, since that is what IOTA is about. But I'd love to join a deeper discussion on this topic at any time anywhere else.

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October 24, 2015, 03:38:24 PM
 #214

What is "confirmation delay"? Time before a transaction is approved by another transaction?

Comparable to a 6 confirmation probability against double-spend in Bitcoin?

https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf

How long does it take for a transaction to become "confirmed" such that it is very, very unlikely it can't be double-spent into the DAG?

I'll leave this question for the whitepaper author, his formulas scare me. Smiley

Protest, my formulas are always beautiful   Cheesy

Well, in iota you cannot say anything like "cumulative weight of X is enough for a tx to be considered confirmed", since the time enters the story. For the system to be secure on its own (i.e., without additional checkpoints or smth), the ability of the attacker to issue tx's must be much less than the "natural" flow of tx's in the system.  So, what you have in iota is rather statements like "if a tx got cumulative weight X by time T, then the probability that this tx can be annihilated is at most p, provided that the potential attacker's hashing power is at most h and the natural tx's flow in the system is at least m", see examples in the bottom of page 14 in the paper. In that "6 blocks confirmation rule" of Bitcoin there are some implicit assumptions as well, by the way.

"Everything must be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"  (c)
Smiley
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October 24, 2015, 04:11:37 PM
 #215

@iotatoken

productivity gains (due to automation etc.) never shared fairly in mankinds history so far.
comparing former to current states and arguing current state is better without having a
look whats on the table in total to share is just guessing, an assumption, not more.

however, i very welcome iota because boiled down iot will come and it has big potential,
bad and good, now or later, with or without us. so a good question is, should it be defined
and build with or without it's later users, for instance by closed global players only or does
an alternative build/dev make sense. yes or no?

this is a no brainer, at least for me. not much to loose here to support iota from my pov.
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October 24, 2015, 04:18:14 PM
 #216

@iotatoken

productivity gains (due to automation etc.) never shared fairly in mankinds history so far.
comparing former to current states and arguing current state is better without having a
look whats on the table in total to share is just guessing, an assumption, not more.

This is why I have already stated several times in this thread that this is a societal issue. Basic Income is one solution to this. As joblessness goes up exponentially we will see Basic Income being proposed as a solution more and more.

Quote
however, i very welcome iota because boiled down iot will come and it has big potential,
bad and good, now or later, with or without us. so a good question is, should it be defined
and build with or without it's later users, for instance by closed global players only or does
an alternative build/dev make sense. yes or no?

this is a no brainer, at least for me. not much to loose here to support iota from my pov.


Great to see you support us Smiley

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October 24, 2015, 05:50:10 PM
 #217


To "hire" miners for the race, can one send IOTA tokens to himself(the same address) or from one address to the other address he owns? To avoid double spending, tx weight cap will be set, so is the cap as small as possible? It seems that the cap is related to the tx flow rate, tx network topology and maybe other things, so is there any principle to set the cap manually or is it hard coded in the software?


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October 24, 2015, 05:52:40 PM
 #218

To "hire" miners for the race, can one send IOTA tokens to himself(the same address) or from one address to the other address he owns? To avoid double spending, tx weight cap will be set, so is the cap as small as possible? It seems that the cap is related to the tx flow rate, tx network topology and maybe other things, so is there any principle to set the cap manually or is it hard coded in the software?

Cap is set manually, each nodes decides if it wants to approve this transaction or not depending on its weight, too low and too high values will be filtered.
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October 24, 2015, 11:46:33 PM
 #219

What is "confirmation delay"? Time before a transaction is approved by another transaction?

Comparable to a 6 confirmation probability against double-spend in Bitcoin?

https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf

How long does it take for a transaction to become "confirmed" such that it is very, very unlikely it can't be double-spent into the DAG?

I'll leave this question for the whitepaper author, his formulas scare me. Smiley

Protest, my formulas are always beautiful   Cheesy

Well, in iota you cannot say anything like "cumulative weight of X is enough for a tx to be considered confirmed", since the time enters the story. For the system to be secure on its own (i.e., without additional checkpoints or smth), the ability of the attacker to issue tx's must be much less than the "natural" flow of tx's in the system.  So, what you have in iota is rather statements like "if a tx got cumulative weight X by time T, then the probability that this tx can be annihilated is at most p, provided that the potential attacker's hashing power is at most h and the natural tx's flow in the system is at least m", see examples in the bottom of page 14 in the paper. In that "6 blocks confirmation rule" of Bitcoin there are some implicit assumptions as well, by the way.

"Everything must be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"  (c)
Smiley

Please translate that general math to some concrete examples for us, so we can compare likely confirmation delays.

I could work it out but I don't have time to dig into your math. You already know that math like the back of your hand. Please help us quantify in terms we all can readily compare to other coins.

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October 24, 2015, 11:51:49 PM
 #220

Does Iota (DAG tangles) need to be only for IoT applications?

What advantage does it have over a normal block chain? Only the faster confirmation time (yet to be quantified) and not needing large blocks (yet all "full" nodes still pretty much need to see all transactions so that aspect of scaling isn't changed from Bitcoin)?

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