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Author Topic: IOTA  (Read 754325 times)
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bitcatch
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December 01, 2015, 04:30:24 PM
 #921

IOTA founders are going to buy their own token at their own IPO, paying unknown amount of BTC to themselfs. They explicitly state it. They don't perceive it as cheating.


I cannot understand why this should be an issue, or even cheating.
Too bad.

founderBTCout = x BTC + founderBTCin
founderBTCsum = founderBTCout - founderBTCin = (x BTC + founderBTCin) - founderBTCin = x BTC (as xeelee said left pocket - right pocket)

and
foundertokens = founderBTCin * allTokens / (x BTC + founderBTCin)
wich becomes more, if more founderBTCin are spent, what doesn't matter, because they will get it back. So - theoretically - if they borrow and put 1 million BTC there, noone gets a shit any more and after they can give them back without a problem.

Iota, I am not against your purpose, but any argument against this? You have to admit, that this is a valid point of criticism.
You demand trust in this case. We all know that this is not that easy and not the crypto way.
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achimsmile
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December 01, 2015, 04:32:21 PM
 #922

It's perfectly OK however if the founders buy their token after the IPO.

How to enforce this? Every developer could promise to do so and use a middle man to buy during IPO without you knowing.
iotatoken
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December 01, 2015, 04:44:03 PM
 #923

founderBTCout = x BTC + founderBTCin
founderBTCsum = founderBTCout - founderBTCin = (x BTC + founderBTCin) - founderBTCin = x BTC (as xeelee said left pocket - right pocket)

and
foundertokens = founderBTCin * allTokens / (x BTC + founderBTCin)
wich becomes more, if more founderBTCin are spent, what doesn't matter, because they will get it back. So - theoretically - if they borrow and put 1 million BTC there, noone gets a shit any more and after they can give them back without a problem.

Iota, I am not against your purpose, but any argument against this? You have to admit, that this is a valid point of criticism.
You demand trust in this case. We all know that this is not that easy and not the crypto way.

I think we already addressed this very complaint on the first few pages of this thread over a month ago. Yes there are ways to cheat, but it would defeat the purpose of the software.

Come-from-Beyond
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December 01, 2015, 04:44:28 PM
 #924

Iota, I am not against your purpose, but any argument against this? You have to admit, that this is a valid point of criticism.
You demand trust in this case. We all know that this is not that easy and not the crypto way.

Correct, it's possible to borrow 1 million BTC. Why anyone would give that much money without collateral for even higher amount is another question, act assuming that I do have 1'000'000 BTC.
bitcatch
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December 01, 2015, 04:47:53 PM
 #925

It's perfectly OK however if the founders buy their token after the IPO.

How to enforce this? Every developer could promise to do so and use a middle man to buy during IPO without you knowing.
Let's distinguish developers and founders:
Let's call a 'founder' a person who has a share in funds collected in an IPO, and a 'developer' - a waged person who has no share in those funds, who will be payed for working on the project by e.g. founders.

You are right.
Crypto IPOs are opaque. We can't be sure how much of their tokens respective founders bought from theirselfs.
But some of them at least don't openly state that they will buy their own coins at the last moment, when there is enough info for them to calculate how much BTC they need to transfer from their left pocket to their right pocket, to get desirable share of their tokens.
iotatoken
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December 01, 2015, 04:52:27 PM
 #926


But some of them at least don't openly state that they will buy their own coins at the last moment, when there is enough info for them to calculate how much BTC they need to transfer from their left pocket to their right pocket, to get desirable share of their tokens.

One more of these false accusations stated only to make yourself feel useful and you will be perma-banned from this thread. This thread is not even the sale thread of IOTA, but the general IOTA thread which should be focused around the software and community.

As for your false claim: I will decide how much to buy based on a completely different factor. I don't want to become a big IOTA 'whale'. Marc De Mesel can actually back up this, he asked me a month ago how much I would purchase and I told him that I did not want to buy a big amount for myself as I wanted the distribution to be widespread, so the amount I would put in would be largely determined by how much was already bought. To me the distribution of IOTA and long term success is a lot more important than my own holding.

And this bullshit about 'transfer from left to right pocket' is just that, bullshit. All our holdings are personal, not company ones. The funds will go to pay for development of hardware, software and community growth.

bitcatch
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December 01, 2015, 04:59:01 PM
 #927


But some of them at least don't openly state that they will buy their own coins at the last moment, when there is enough info for them to calculate how much BTC they need to transfer from their left pocket to their right pocket, to get desirable share of their tokens.

One more of these false accusations stated only to make yourself feel useful and you will be perma-banned from this thread. This thread is not even the sale thread of IOTA, but the general IOTA thread which should be focused around the software and community.

As for your false claim: I will decide how much to buy based on a completely different factor. I don't want to become a big IOTA 'whale'. Marc De Mesel can actually back up this, he asked me a month ago how much I would purchase and I told him that I did not want to buy a big amount for myself as I wanted the distribution to be widespread, so the amount I would put in would be largely determined by how much was already bought. To me the distribution of IOTA and long term success is a lot more important than my own holding.

And this bullshit about 'transfer from left to right pocket' is just that, bullshit. All our holdings are personal, not company ones. The funds will go to pay for development of hardware, software and community growth.
There is an easy way to achieve those honorable goals without being accused in cheating, scamming, etc.: use burning instead of classical IPO. Like XCP did.
iotatoken
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December 01, 2015, 05:00:33 PM
 #928

There is an easy way to achieve those honorable goals without being accused in cheating, scamming, etc.: use burning instead of classical IPO. Like XCP did.


How would that fund development?

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December 01, 2015, 05:04:20 PM
 #929

Guys, move to a special thread, please.

Bitcatch has a legit concern, unfortunatelly, there is no a way to solve the issue so if he thinks if he should buy iotas or not then it's better to spend money on something else (spending money on a gf is the best choice, IMO). If he asks questions to warn the others - I get such behavior, usually it's caused by the wish to make this world better. In this case I suggest to create a separate thread and post the link here. This thread has already been derailed, let's branch out long convos to dedicated threads.

PS: From now only the link to the dedicated thread is allowed. All other posts will be deleted.
BTCDDev
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December 01, 2015, 05:28:02 PM
 #930

The trolling here is pitiful, but I expected no less from BitcoinTalk.

I figured that if Iota is successful, people would then complain about the crowdsale how they complain about missing the Nxt initial buyin period.

However, it seems the complaining is even starting during the initial 'Pioneer' phase.  Roll Eyes

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LiQio
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December 01, 2015, 07:05:45 PM
 #931

[...]spending money on a gf is the best choice, IMO[...]

I guess the "a" is used instead of "the" on purpose  Cheesy

(and yes, you may delete this post - no hard feelings)
tolstoy
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December 02, 2015, 02:06:00 AM
 #932

Physicists achieve quantum entanglement at room temperature.

Quantum entanglement at ambient conditions in a macroscopic solid-state spin ensemble.  Science Advances, 20 Nov 2015
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/1/10/e1501015.full

On-chip zero-index metamaterials.  Nature Photonics, 19 October 2015
http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v9/n11/full/nphoton.2015.198.html
http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/hardware/zeroindex-metamaterials-open-new-possibilities-in-optical-chips

With progress being made daily, it's only a matter of time before some major breakthrough is made in quantum computing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing

1btcdream
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December 02, 2015, 10:25:20 AM
 #933

This is a simple question for Come-from-Beyond, from a grade scale of 1 (doubtful) to 10 (confident) how sure are you that IOTA would be successful? Choose a number from 1 to 10, any other answer not required. 
megges
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December 02, 2015, 10:27:46 AM
 #934

This is a simple question for Come-from-Beyond, from a grade scale of 1 (doubtful) to 10 (confident) how sure are you that IOTA would be successful? Choose a number from 1 to 10, any other answer not required.  

how could someone answer this question? Crystalball?

And the term "success" can be anything from, working "coin", to price rise, to adoption, to .... i guess you have to define what you mean by successful.

For me this seems not to be a simple question!

tip me! Tongue XtSrWch1U3BsTBFBHj7acTTzxFo1fy5BMa
iotatoken
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December 02, 2015, 10:34:33 AM
 #935

This is a simple question for Come-from-Beyond, from a grade scale of 1 (doubtful) to 10 (confident) how sure are you that IOTA would be successful? Choose a number from 1 to 10, any other answer not required.  

This question cannot really be answered without legal implications. The only thing we can say is that we would not be wasting our time with it if we ourselves did not see the potential in the software that is IOTA. Whether you think it'll fail or succeed (whatever parameters you use to measure this) is 100% up to you.

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December 02, 2015, 11:36:25 AM
 #936

This is a simple question for Come-from-Beyond, from a grade scale of 1 (doubtful) to 10 (confident) how sure are you that IOTA would be successful? Choose a number from 1 to 10, any other answer not required. 

7.62
1btcdream
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December 02, 2015, 11:47:57 AM
 #937

This is a simple question for Come-from-Beyond, from a grade scale of 1 (doubtful) to 10 (confident) how sure are you that IOTA would be successful? Choose a number from 1 to 10, any other answer not required. 

7.62

After seeing your answer I would definitely invest in IOTA. Thanks!  Smiley
Come-from-Beyond
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December 02, 2015, 11:52:49 AM
 #938

After seeing your answer I would definitely invest in IOTA. Thanks!  Smiley

Hm, it looks like you invest into me. If it's so I insist that you think again, too much burden for me if anyone buys iotas because of my involvement.
1btcdream
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December 02, 2015, 12:00:43 PM
 #939

After seeing your answer I would definitely invest in IOTA. Thanks!  Smiley

Hm, it looks like you invest into me. If it's so I insist that you think again, too much burden for me if anyone buys iotas because of my involvement.

Need not to worry I only invest in IOTA. But I have trust in IOTA dev team.  Wink
iotatoken
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December 02, 2015, 12:01:42 PM
 #940

After seeing your answer I would definitely invest in IOTA. Thanks!  Smiley

Hm, it looks like you invest into me. If it's so I insist that you think again, too much burden for me if anyone buys iotas because of my involvement.

Need not to worry I only invest in IOTA. But I have trust in IOTA dev team.  Wink

IOTA is software, not investment. If you are saying that you are BUYING the software, fine. Just making sure that you don't think IOTA is a security or investment, as explained in the risk document, it's not.

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