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Author Topic: Bitcoin-Central, first exchange licensed to operate with a bank. This is HUGE  (Read 117159 times)
ssaCEO
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December 09, 2012, 06:38:28 PM
 #321

I haven't read through this whole thread, but here are my main concerns:

1. Having lived a long time in France, I know how difficult it is to open a single Credit Agricole bank account if you do not have French citizenship. To me, it seems impossible that accounts could be opened in the names of your Bitcoin depositors and issued IBAN/SWIFT numbers for international transfer, if you do not have the account holder present with identification and a French tax code to open the bank account. How do you plan to work around these issues, and if you're planning to allow non-French citizens to have access to French banks, each with their own account numbers, what type of license do you have to do that?

2. Although I understand you're still growing, the volume on Bitcoin-Central is nowhere near enough to bring in the money to finance the above licensing (or even the overhead that would be required to run such a business). Where are your funds for backing this and when will your customers see documents showing you are sufficiently liquid to trust with deposits -- let alone deposits guaranteed by the French government?

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Rob E
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December 09, 2012, 06:49:57 PM
 #322

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

What do you think? If you want that kind of privacy, better avoid traditional banks altogether.
[/b]
Finally, someone speaking some sense.
Bitcoin is a vibrant ecosystem with lots of possibilities, lots of options. Localbitcoins by Jeremias Kangas is the first that comes to mind.

Bitcoin is not about doing thing one way or another, Bitcoin is about giving people choice to do things the way they wish.

Which was kinda the intrisic value of bitcoin itself isn't it. Which you are now trying to enslave through the banking system.
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December 09, 2012, 07:03:46 PM
 #323

1. Having lived a long time in France, I know how difficult it is to open a single Credit Agricole bank account if you do not have French citizenship. To me, it seems impossible that accounts could be opened in the names of your Bitcoin depositors and issued IBAN/SWIFT numbers for international transfer, if you do not have the account holder present with identification and a French tax code to open the bank account. How do you plan to work around these issues, and if you're planning to allow non-French citizens to have access to French banks, each with their own account numbers, what type of license do you have to do that?
We're going to work with Aqoba to do as much as is legally possible. Just because some French banks make it hard does not necessarily mean it legally isn't feasible to open accounts for foreigners. That is one thing.

The other thing is that requirements are different for bank accounts ("comptes de dépôt") and payment accounts ("comptes de paiement").

I honestly don't know what exactly is possible and what isn't. We'll be working with Aqoba, our lawyers and their lawyers to figure out exactly what is possible and what isn't. There is already one thing that is 100% sure : any resident, or corporation from a SEPA-zone country is able to open an account with us.

We honestly didn't think there would be this kind of massive interest from Americans and other nationalities all around the world.

The exact type of license we'll have for this is "IOBSP" ("Intermédiaire en Opérations de Banque et Services de Paiement"), Aqoba has an EP ("Établissement de Paiement") license (PSP).

2. Although I understand you're still growing, the volume on Bitcoin-Central is nowhere near enough to bring in the money to finance the above licensing (or even the overhead that would be required to run such a business). Where are your funds for backing this and when will your customers see documents showing you are sufficiently liquid to trust with deposits -- let alone deposits guaranteed by the French government?
You seem to be slightly confused here, one of the main points of this move is to allow our customers to trust us less. By this, I mean that the customer funds are safe, deposited in their own name (the customer's name), clearly segregated from our corporate funds. These funds are legally not our property. I can only let you imagine the catastrophic consequences of an unlicensed exchange being sued to bankruptcy by a state, a bank or some other party. If such a thing was to happen to us, all our clients would be safe to the very last cent.

The guarantee of the French government doesn't cover our own bankruptcy (as it wouldn't be needed since as I outlined, our funds are legally separated from our customers funds), it covers our customers against a default of the Crédit Mutuel Arkéa which is the backing financial institution. For an unlicensed exchange this guarantee is 100k€ globally for the comined customers balances, for us, the guarantee is 100k€ per customer.

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December 09, 2012, 07:20:42 PM
 #324

I don't really want to take sides on the debate since I understand both viewpoints but I do think that I side with davout on this one. Jon Matonis writes like it's the end of Bitcoin if exchanges accept regulation, no it's not. It's going to make Bitcoin grow. Not only that, it just gives us more motivation to support OTC trade, LocalBitcoins and put more effort in developing online p2p exchanges.

There can be different modes of operation within Bitcoin and if it does happen that because of the widespread regulation Bitcoin is difficult to use anonymously, then we will have another cryptocurrency, a less mainstream one, for that purpose. Bitcoin won't necessary be the tool of all trades, it might become inefficient for some use cases. Of course I wish it becomes as universal as possible but it might not work for everything.

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December 09, 2012, 09:52:25 PM
 #325

Quote
We honestly didn't think there would be this kind of massive interest from Americans and other nationalities all around the world. We honestly didn't think there would be this kind of massive interest from Americans and other nationalities all around the world.

Welcome to the new age of fiscal facism ... US citizens will flock to anything that is somehow outside their fiscal prison of a banking system where you don't have to submit to the psychological equivalent of a full cavity search just to manage and transact with your own money.

You come across as being a little naive to the true nature of the battle going on out there ... good luck.

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December 09, 2012, 11:09:31 PM
 #326

^ link isn't valid,
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December 09, 2012, 11:22:12 PM
 #327

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

What do you think? If you want that kind of privacy, better avoid traditional banks altogether.
[/b]
Finally, someone speaking some sense.
Bitcoin is a vibrant ecosystem with lots of possibilities, lots of options. Localbitcoins by Jeremias Kangas is the first that comes to mind.

Bitcoin is not about doing thing one way or another, Bitcoin is about giving people choice to do things the way they wish.

Which was kinda the intrisic value of bitcoin itself isn't it. Which you are now trying to enslave through the banking system.

Bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value, only things which we humans need to survive have intrinsic value to us. The sun has intrinsic value to humans. Gold does not have intrinsic value to humans.

Privacy is one of the subjective values of Bitcoin. If you value privacy, you can use Bitcoin in a manner that will preserve your privacy. Yet, this is not a requirement for using Bitcoin. I can link my identity to as many Bitcoin addresses as I please. This is entirely up to the user!

It's impossible to enslave Bitcoin by linking it to the traditional banking system.
If you think it's possible, you had better take a deeper look at some of the properties of Bitcoin. Sure, governments can attempt to regulate or even outlaw Bitcoin, but they have no way of enforcing it upon savvy users. If they go so far as to alter the code and fork the chain, users can simply choose to ignore the new code and continue on the original chain. Even obtaining a majority of the hash rate and changing the rules does not force other users to follow those rules. If the traditional banks try to manipulate the system financially, let them! They will soon find that without a central bank acting as a lender of last resort, they will face the same risks as anyone else.

You seem to want everyone to use Bitcoin as you see fit. That's not freedom. If I want to deposit bitcoins into my traditional bank, and that option is available to me, who are you to tell me otherwise? At the same time, I can choose to ignore any links with the traditional banking system and continue to use bitcoin with full anonymity. This is entirely up to the user!

If you don't agree with this service, don't use it! But what are you trying to achieve by telling others what they should or should not do with their money?

 Really if you read the ECB report which basically came down to bitcoing being the enemy of the current money system which THEY proprietor ..Why do you think they want to do buisiness with you. . hm m ? Little too hard to think about too difficult. . don't care?
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December 10, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
 #328

well . . you could be  smarter then the ECB.
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December 10, 2012, 01:49:46 AM
 #329

I honestly don't know what exactly is possible and what isn't. We'll be working with Aqoba, our lawyers and their lawyers to figure out exactly what is possible and what isn't.

Seems like you probably should have done more research before opening this thing up.  Of course, this kind of fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants unprofessionalism is pretty typical of bitcoin by now.
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December 10, 2012, 02:02:32 AM
 #330

Correct, don't care. They won't be doing business with me. And I'm not concerned about them controlling anything Bitcoin because I realize they can't. I've been reading threads about how authorities can attempt to control Bitcoin for over a year now. I assume at some point they will try, but I'm not concerned about it because I know they will fail. The cat is out of the bag.

So, if people want to work with the banks, who cares? This won't change how I use Bitcoin, or how Bitcoin works.

Why don't you drop the condescending remarks and converse like a gentleman? I don't know what you do in life, but constantly belittling your peers is no way to share your ideas. Maybe if you'd relax a bit, you would realize that I am no fan of banks or government either. How do you expect to spread knowledge about their abuses when you attack anyone that doesn't agree with you?

Also, since you are so passionate about the current banking system, let me ask you a question. Have you used fiat money in the past day? Week? Month? Year? You need to realize this isn't a race, it's a marathon. If services like this make Bitcoin accessible for more people, that is a win for freedom whether you realize it or not.

Holliday, I've been developing (with a friend) a site for 3 months; i think we'll finish in a year. Imagine 'they' seize our website. This isn't hard to imagine, after GBLSE. Do you think i will ever spend more than a year developing another bitcoin site? Will anyone do it? You're being naive thinking that there won't be consecuences, the cat is out of the bag, we all have the bigest dicks and so on... as I SAID, they cannot close the network, that's easy to understand... but they can go after the merchants and close their websites (or shops) where they sell goods and/or services.

By the way, bitcoin is fully accessible for almost everyone. It's open source and free. Anyone can start selling for bitcoins. This is not about you buying, but about EVERYBODY SELLING. Bitcoin is not yet mass-adopted ONLY because it's not READY. Do you really think that nike could start tomorrow running all the company with bitcoins? It's not because their providers won't accept bitcoins... but because the software to run a company is not ready (yet).

And this has nothing to do with any bitcoin bank, exchange or whatever, it is because of REALLITY.

Even if you say, ok then the shops can still work with fiat, and i can buy with bitcoins, so i will be able to convince more people. You are fooling your self.

If you go and explain to people that they can now buy stuff using bitcoins to people who don't. They will say, ok and why don't i use my fiat money like allways?

And by the way. If this was 'huge' then the price would have gone up. So this is my prediction: There's nothing disruptive in bitcoin central, so i don't expect it to be the gamechanger. Another exchange more, with diferent marketing and blessed by their masters. Ok.




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December 10, 2012, 03:39:31 AM
 #331

Because banks manipulate markets.

Unless you can provide some specific examples, that statement is about as relevant as "Because banks give you savings accounts." Banks can't manipulate things as deviously as many people think.

Seriously?

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December 10, 2012, 05:28:05 AM
 #332

Because banks manipulate markets.

Unless you can provide some specific examples, that statement is about as relevant as "Because banks give you savings accounts." Banks can't manipulate things as deviously as many people think.

Seriously?

Seriously. Well, they can seriously fuck things up and need bailouts. But they don't quite have the international power to manipulate prices and or affect economy the way Rob E seems to assume. They do try. Then we bail them out.

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December 10, 2012, 08:21:03 AM
 #333

But they don't quite have the international power to manipulate prices and or affect economy the way Rob E seems to assume.
Banks do manipulate prices in unprecedented scale giving absolutely false signals to the real economy. This is why economic uncertainty for ordinary entrepreneurs is increasing. People claiming the opposite just don't know what they are talking about!

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December 10, 2012, 08:29:01 AM
 #334

Because banks manipulate markets.

Unless you can provide some specific examples, that statement is about as relevant as "Because banks give you savings accounts." Banks can't manipulate things as deviously as many people think.

Seriously?

Seriously. Well, they can seriously fuck things up and need bailouts. But they don't quite have the international power to manipulate prices and or affect economy the way Rob E seems to assume. They do try. Then we bail them out.

Did you miss the LIBOR news?

Have you not paid attention to the last 100 years of monetary policy?

On Topic: I will quote myself from an earlier episode of OMG SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY news:

This is seriously awesome. I wonder how long the establishment will tolerate you leveraging their ancient and hard won infrastructure to beat them at their own corrupt game.

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December 10, 2012, 02:25:58 PM
 #335

I can only let you imagine the catastrophic consequences of an unlicensed exchange being sued to bankruptcy by a state, a bank or some other party.

In this he has a good point. If a troublemaker were to take Tibane to court seriously, injuctions & all, MtGox would not be legally able to repay anything it holds for "customers". Those BTC/whatever would possibly be used to satisfy the claim of the plaintiff, leaving the MtGox average user as an unsecured creditor holding the empty bag.

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December 10, 2012, 03:14:17 PM
 #336

Because banks manipulate markets.

Unless you can provide some specific examples, that statement is about as relevant as "Because banks give you savings accounts." Banks can't manipulate things as deviously as many people think.

Seriously?

Seriously. Well, they can seriously fuck things up and need bailouts. But they don't quite have the international power to manipulate prices and or affect economy the way Rob E seems to assume. They do try. Then we bail them out.

Did you miss the LIBOR news?

Have you not payed attention to the last 100 years of monetary policy?

On Topic: I will quote myself from an earlier episode of OMG SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY news:

This is seriously awesome. I wonder how long the establishment will tolerate you leveraging their ancient and hard won infrastructure to beat them at their own corrupt game.


Rassah's not saying that banks don't manipulate markets. He's saying they are less able to manipulate markets than many people think, and I agree with him on this. Also, people need to be careful to distinguish between "manipulating markets" and "influencing markets".

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December 10, 2012, 04:21:43 PM
 #337

Also, people need to be careful to distinguish between "manipulating markets" and "influencing markets".
Do you know what LIBOR is? Do you know how is it technically calculated by the panel of member banks? If a bank offers interbank deposits at a certain interest rate in effect only to other member banks this is not just "influencing markets" or "manipulating markets". This is rigging markets!

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December 10, 2012, 04:51:59 PM
 #338

e-Gold's Doug Jackson complied w/all licensing and money business regulations until they suddenly changed the rules on him; now he sports an ankle bracelet.



Bullion and Bandits article here: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/

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December 10, 2012, 04:53:55 PM
 #339

e-Gold's Doug Jackson complied w/all licensing and money business regulations until they suddenly changed the rules on him; now he sports an ankle bracelet.



Bullion and Bandits article here: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/
Jon, please stop now Smiley

You know perfectly well that this is not going to happen since the state knows that this would mean instant, free and massive publicity for Bitcoin. Apple and oranges Jon, apples and oranges.

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December 10, 2012, 04:59:24 PM
 #340

e-Gold's Doug Jackson complied w/all licensing and money business regulations until they suddenly changed the rules on him; now he sports an ankle bracelet.



Bullion and Bandits article here: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/
Jon, please stop now Smiley

You know perfectly well that this is not going to happen since the state knows that this would mean instant, free and massive publicity for Bitcoin. Apple and oranges Jon, apples and oranges.
I think davout got a point here: Doug jackson'ankle looks awfully like a single point of failure..

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