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Author Topic: Bitcoin-Central, first exchange licensed to operate with a bank. This is HUGE  (Read 161091 times)
davout
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December 08, 2012, 09:23:33 PM
 #301

no no no, fix the Credit Mutuel proper naming, not to be confused
Right

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marcus_of_augustus
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December 08, 2012, 11:51:28 PM
 #302

How do you know Gox's bank cares? Remember the bank is only seeing the withdrawals and deposits, they not seeing the bitcoins coming in and out, that are used to represent those dollars.

They're not just seeing withdrawals and deposits, they are seeing $20,000,000 a month worth of withdrawals and deposits. With that amount of money they know they are likely under the scrutiny of every regulatory body out there. It's likely why MtGox has had to resort to KYC and AML regulations as well, like a real bank.

And running graph theory analysis on the blockchain. Inputting the now known users-bitcoin-address pairs supplied by Gox, BitPay, Paymium (whoever) as fixed points makes such graph theory analysis much more successful .... just saying, the more data points that go in the better the analysis (i.e. the weaker the privacy of ALL bitcoin transactions become).

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December 09, 2012, 12:06:32 AM
 #303

I've personally attempted to get two of my regular restaurants on Polk street to accept bitcoin.  Apparently sales is not my thing.  I'm hoping this is a way to start using bitcoin without having to evangelize and harass people to accept bitcoin.

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December 09, 2012, 07:41:34 AM
 #304

I've personally attempted to get two of my regular restaurants on Polk street to accept bitcoin.  Apparently sales is not my thing.  I'm hoping this is a way to start using bitcoin without having to evangelize and harass people to accept bitcoin.

That's what I'm worried about guys, don't turn this into a religion, Bitcoin's own virtues will come out by itself when the next recession comes along.
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December 09, 2012, 08:10:22 AM
 #305

I've personally attempted to get two of my regular restaurants on Polk street to accept bitcoin.  Apparently sales is not my thing.  I'm hoping this is a way to start using bitcoin without having to evangelize and harass people to accept bitcoin.

That's what I'm worried about guys, don't turn this into a religion, Bitcoin's own virtues will come out by itself when the next recession comes along.

+1
Give us hoarders some time to buy more cheap bitcoins before you make the price explode through wider adoption please, kthx.

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December 09, 2012, 08:14:18 AM
 #306

I've personally attempted to get two of my regular restaurants on Polk street to accept bitcoin.  Apparently sales is not my thing.  I'm hoping this is a way to start using bitcoin without having to evangelize and harass people to accept bitcoin.

That's what I'm worried about guys, don't turn this into a religion, Bitcoin's own virtues will come out by itself when the next recession comes along.

Blessed be thy blockchain? Church of Satoshi and Latter day coins.

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December 09, 2012, 08:15:19 AM
 #307

How do you know Gox's bank cares? Remember the bank is only seeing the withdrawals and deposits, they not seeing the bitcoins coming in and out, that are used to represent those dollars.

They're not just seeing withdrawals and deposits, they are seeing $20,000,000 a month worth of withdrawals and deposits. With that amount of money they know they are likely under the scrutiny of every regulatory body out there. It's likely why MtGox has had to resort to KYC and AML regulations as well, like a real bank.

And running graph theory analysis on the blockchain. Inputting the now known users-bitcoin-address pairs supplied by Gox, BitPay, Paymium (whoever) as fixed points makes such graph theory analysis much more successful .... just saying, the more data points that go in the better the analysis (i.e. the weaker the privacy of ALL bitcoin transactions become).

This would be why some exchanges correctly implementing Bitcoin do not use individual BTC addresses for users.

For a cookie, name the one from that "some."

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marcus_of_augustus
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December 09, 2012, 10:03:44 AM
 #308

How do you know Gox's bank cares? Remember the bank is only seeing the withdrawals and deposits, they not seeing the bitcoins coming in and out, that are used to represent those dollars.

They're not just seeing withdrawals and deposits, they are seeing $20,000,000 a month worth of withdrawals and deposits. With that amount of money they know they are likely under the scrutiny of every regulatory body out there. It's likely why MtGox has had to resort to KYC and AML regulations as well, like a real bank.

And running graph theory analysis on the blockchain. Inputting the now known users-bitcoin-address pairs supplied by Gox, BitPay, Paymium (whoever) as fixed points makes such graph theory analysis much more successful .... just saying, the more data points that go in the better the analysis (i.e. the weaker the privacy of ALL bitcoin transactions become).

This would be why some exchanges correctly implementing Bitcoin do not use individual BTC addresses for users.

For a cookie, name the one from that "some."

Indeed, a subtle yet crucial point.

So davout does Bitcoin-Central require linking users ID to bitcoin addresses?
a) do you (or your regulators) intend to keep records of which users used which bitcoin addresses?
b) since the regulators are only concerned with the 'fiat' side of your business it seems they would not need to know what happens on the bitcoin side of the transaction graph, right?

Monetary Freedom - a basic human right
The ultimate outcome of central banking must be that everybody goes broke borrowing fiat money that has no value.
Come-from-Beyond
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December 09, 2012, 10:33:50 AM
 #309

So davout does Bitcoin-Central require linking users ID to bitcoin addresses?
a) do you (or your regulators) intend to keep records of which users used which bitcoin addresses?
b) since the regulators are only concerned with the 'fiat' side of your business it seems they would not need to know what happens on the bitcoin side of the transaction graph, right?

I'll answer in case these are non-rhetorical questions:

We live in Information Age, more info = more money. Of coz they keep all info they get.
Rob E
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December 09, 2012, 10:34:08 AM
 #310

I've personally attempted to get two of my regular restaurants on Polk street to accept bitcoin.  Apparently sales is not my thing.  I'm hoping this is a way to start using bitcoin without having to evangelize and harass people to accept bitcoin.

That's what I'm worried about guys, don't turn this into a religion, Bitcoin's own virtues will come out by itself when the next recession comes along.
when the " next recession comes a long? Isnt that a bit like saying you'll understand when the Titanic bangs another iceberg.. Another recession.. WE. ARE IN A recession THE recessions OF recessions WORLD wide. How could you have missed this. It doesnt make any sense.
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December 09, 2012, 01:32:49 PM
 #311


So davout does Bitcoin-Central require linking users ID to bitcoin addresses?
a) do you (or your regulators) intend to keep records of which users used which bitcoin addresses?
b) since the regulators are only concerned with the 'fiat' side of your business it seems they would not need to know what happens on the bitcoin side of the transaction graph, right?

The only static ID used by bitcoin-central is the BC account number (looking something like BC-U12345).

For convenience, Bitcoin-central provides also a bitcoin address that is renewed after each transaction to protect the user's privacy.

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December 09, 2012, 02:51:07 PM
 #312

For convenience, Bitcoin-central provides also a bitcoin address that is renewed after each transaction to protect the user's privacy.

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?
Rob E
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December 09, 2012, 03:04:50 PM
 #313

Off course not but we'll have to agree to dissagree.. Hey. . Its all cool..
Rob E
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December 09, 2012, 03:25:32 PM
 #314

I can pretty much say with certainty that this new exchange floor will offer a better exchange rate  then all other exchange floors why? Because banks manipulate markets..But hey . lets just agree to disagree.. hey. And if it happens in france whos to say it wont / cant happen in another country and then we can all link up to the system at the request of cavity searches wether legitimate or for something to do we can all be linked up through the bankers exchange floors dealing in bitcoins and we can all have a big partayy..
Rob E
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December 09, 2012, 03:29:45 PM
 #315

and we can aaa  aaa aaalll agree to disagree . hey..
davout
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December 09, 2012, 05:32:13 PM
 #316

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

What do you think? If you want that kind of privacy, better avoid traditional banks altogether.
Finally, someone speaking some sense.
Bitcoin is a vibrant ecosystem with lots of possibilities, lots of options. Localbitcoins by Jeremias Kangas is the first that comes to mind.

Bitcoin is not about doing thing one way or another, Bitcoin is about giving people choice to do things the way they wish.

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December 09, 2012, 06:23:35 PM
 #317

Because banks manipulate markets.

Unless you can provide some specific examples, that statement is about as relevant as "Because banks give you savings accounts." Banks can't manipulate things as deviously as many people think.

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December 09, 2012, 06:38:28 PM
 #318

I haven't read through this whole thread, but here are my main concerns:

1. Having lived a long time in France, I know how difficult it is to open a single Credit Agricole bank account if you do not have French citizenship. To me, it seems impossible that accounts could be opened in the names of your Bitcoin depositors and issued IBAN/SWIFT numbers for international transfer, if you do not have the account holder present with identification and a French tax code to open the bank account. How do you plan to work around these issues, and if you're planning to allow non-French citizens to have access to French banks, each with their own account numbers, what type of license do you have to do that?

2. Although I understand you're still growing, the volume on Bitcoin-Central is nowhere near enough to bring in the money to finance the above licensing (or even the overhead that would be required to run such a business). Where are your funds for backing this and when will your customers see documents showing you are sufficiently liquid to trust with deposits -- let alone deposits guaranteed by the French government?

Rob E
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December 09, 2012, 06:49:57 PM
 #319

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

What do you think? If you want that kind of privacy, better avoid traditional banks altogether.
[/b]
Finally, someone speaking some sense.
Bitcoin is a vibrant ecosystem with lots of possibilities, lots of options. Localbitcoins by Jeremias Kangas is the first that comes to mind.

Bitcoin is not about doing thing one way or another, Bitcoin is about giving people choice to do things the way they wish.

Which was kinda the intrisic value of bitcoin itself isn't it. Which you are now trying to enslave through the banking system.
davout
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December 09, 2012, 07:03:46 PM
 #320

1. Having lived a long time in France, I know how difficult it is to open a single Credit Agricole bank account if you do not have French citizenship. To me, it seems impossible that accounts could be opened in the names of your Bitcoin depositors and issued IBAN/SWIFT numbers for international transfer, if you do not have the account holder present with identification and a French tax code to open the bank account. How do you plan to work around these issues, and if you're planning to allow non-French citizens to have access to French banks, each with their own account numbers, what type of license do you have to do that?
We're going to work with Aqoba to do as much as is legally possible. Just because some French banks make it hard does not necessarily mean it legally isn't feasible to open accounts for foreigners. That is one thing.

The other thing is that requirements are different for bank accounts ("comptes de dépôt") and payment accounts ("comptes de paiement").

I honestly don't know what exactly is possible and what isn't. We'll be working with Aqoba, our lawyers and their lawyers to figure out exactly what is possible and what isn't. There is already one thing that is 100% sure : any resident, or corporation from a SEPA-zone country is able to open an account with us.

We honestly didn't think there would be this kind of massive interest from Americans and other nationalities all around the world.

The exact type of license we'll have for this is "IOBSP" ("Intermédiaire en Opérations de Banque et Services de Paiement"), Aqoba has an EP ("Établissement de Paiement") license (PSP).

2. Although I understand you're still growing, the volume on Bitcoin-Central is nowhere near enough to bring in the money to finance the above licensing (or even the overhead that would be required to run such a business). Where are your funds for backing this and when will your customers see documents showing you are sufficiently liquid to trust with deposits -- let alone deposits guaranteed by the French government?
You seem to be slightly confused here, one of the main points of this move is to allow our customers to trust us less. By this, I mean that the customer funds are safe, deposited in their own name (the customer's name), clearly segregated from our corporate funds. These funds are legally not our property. I can only let you imagine the catastrophic consequences of an unlicensed exchange being sued to bankruptcy by a state, a bank or some other party. If such a thing was to happen to us, all our clients would be safe to the very last cent.

The guarantee of the French government doesn't cover our own bankruptcy (as it wouldn't be needed since as I outlined, our funds are legally separated from our customers funds), it covers our customers against a default of the Crédit Mutuel Arkéa which is the backing financial institution. For an unlicensed exchange this guarantee is 100k€ globally for the comined customers balances, for us, the guarantee is 100k€ per customer.

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