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Author Topic: Bitcoin-Central, first exchange licensed to operate with a bank. This is HUGE  (Read 191426 times)
MPOE-PR
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May 30, 2013, 05:39:28 PM
 #541

You can look at it like the difference from real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels which are your possession too but can be moved with ease.
In all the countries I've lived so far transactions in real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels are NOT tax exempt! You have to pay both federal and local taxes. So, back to square 1.

Sit back and relax, you have the answer in your post. NOT tax exempt, but you don't pay VAT  Wink

Pure nonsense. Nobody has any title to any Bitcoin.

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Because of these reasons it can not be said that anyone holds any title in either law or equity to any Bitcoin. Since there is no first owner of the Bitcoin that could then pass title as part of a contract, all purported Bitcoin "purchases" are contracts for no consideration and as such legally without merit.

The reasons why Bitcoin securities can't be regulated by the SEC.

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2weiX
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May 30, 2013, 08:28:59 PM
 #542

Just for the few people here who seem a little confused : Bitcoin is legally neither currency, nor electronic money.

It is a financial instrument, tho (at leas so sayeth BAFin).

Not at all 2weiX, but digital property like for example a domain name. We've been having allot of talks with our lawyers here in Spain, and the most probable course of action will be to follow laws and regulations regarding personal property that are already in place for the digital realm.

the german SEC (called bafin) has stated that as soon as the BTC is traded for money, it is a financial instrument.
the FinCEN has called Bitcoin a "digital currency".

i do not for a minute subscribe to this "digital property" bull.
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May 30, 2013, 08:31:35 PM
 #543

You can look at it like the difference from real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels which are your possession too but can be moved with ease.
In all the countries I've lived so far transactions in real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels are NOT tax exempt! You have to pay both federal and local taxes. So, back to square 1.

Sit back and relax, you have the answer in your post. NOT tax exempt, but you don't pay VAT  Wink

Pure nonsense. Nobody has any title to any Bitcoin.

Quote
Because of these reasons it can not be said that anyone holds any title in either law or equity to any Bitcoin. Since there is no first owner of the Bitcoin that could then pass title as part of a contract, all purported Bitcoin "purchases" are contracts for no consideration and as such legally without merit.

The reasons why Bitcoin securities can't be regulated by the SEC.


irrelevant since the SEC can control many/most (the biggest and most important) veins INTO and OUTOF the BTC.
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May 31, 2013, 09:09:44 AM
 #544

You're assuming someone is trying to run a bitcoin bank versus an exchange.
Bank or exchange it doesn't matter. Under the current regulatory framework they are parts of one chain and operate in the same fashion. If you are not able to confiscate the funds on a customer account you are not compliant. Period.
They can confiscate funds, bitcoins or fiat, on a customer account.  Easily.  They can't confiscate funds in the customer's private wallet.  Neither can banks.

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May 31, 2013, 02:32:39 PM
 #545

They can't confiscate funds in the customer's private wallet. 
This is exactly what I'm saying. If you offer your customers services that help them transact from one private wallet to another without being capable of confiscating their funds if you're ordered to, then you don't comply with current regulation. You'll be tagged money launderer.
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June 01, 2013, 09:58:05 AM
 #546

irrelevant since the SEC can control many/most (the biggest and most important) veins INTO and OUTOF the BTC.

This is the naive PoV specific to those captive on the web. Most BTC/fiat trade happened OTC, at all points historically. Since MtGox' recent collapse the OTC preeminence has accentuated significantly.

i do not for a minute subscribe to this "digital property" bull.

Why do you think that matters at all? It is what it is, not what you subscribe to it being.

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June 01, 2013, 10:42:37 AM
 #547

irrelevant since the SEC can control many/most (the biggest and most important) veins INTO and OUTOF the BTC.

This is the naive PoV specific to those captive on the web. Most BTC/fiat trade happened OTC, at all points historically. Since MtGox' recent collapse the OTC preeminence has accentuated significantly.

i do not for a minute subscribe to this "digital property" bull.

Why do you think that matters at all? It is what it is, not what you subscribe to it being.


a) highly doubt that TBH, at least for the last 18 months.
b) it doesn't matter at all what I believe. it just matters how it is handled and regulated. handling and regulating it as a commodity/property would be one of the more stupid options.
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June 01, 2013, 01:44:29 PM
 #548

a) highly doubt that TBH, at least for the last 18 months.

But is this based on anything at all or nothing whatsoever? Is it more of a "I don't believe black swans exist in Australia, in spite of me never having been there, on the grounds that all the swans I ever saw here in England were white and none even slightly gray", or is it more of a "I heard reports of black swans, but I've investigated the various places and could find none"?

b) it doesn't matter at all what I believe. it just matters how it is handled and regulated. handling and regulating it as a commodity/property would be one of the more stupid options.

You are basically arguing that "handling" whatever that means and regulation are going to follow the smart path or avoid the stupid options? Through what thought process exactly do you come to this conclusion? It's not supported historically, or by any sort of mechanism I can think of.

Other than that, regulation is irrelevant in this discussion. We are talking about what Bitcoins are. If for instance some government comes forth with regulation requiring water to be viewed as an alcohol this won't at all change the fact that water is an oxide. It will maintain the properties of oxides (such as inflammability) and not acquire the properties of alcohols.

More narrowly, in the discussion of title, which is a term of art, nobody has any title to any Bitcoin. The working of titles does not change with regulation.

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June 01, 2013, 02:51:33 PM
 #549

MPOE-PR you are free to take whatever direction suits your interests best, and trolling in this thread will do not help you pass your extensive knowledge over the issue to the masses either.

Technically bitcoins are created by miners and never move from the place in the blockchain where they were placed, or precisely the block where they showed up originally. People only move around digitally signed ownership contracts over bitcoins, not the physical possession over a tangible object. Think bigger, don't be dense. You are entitled to use your bitcoins if you can properly sign the property transfer with your private keys. Bitcoins don't suddenly cease to exists if you are incapable to prove ownership of them.

I could go on for a while but I count on your higher than average intellect to grasp this concept right away.

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June 01, 2013, 04:25:57 PM
 #550

MPOE-PR you are free to take whatever direction suits your interests best, and trolling in this thread will do not help you pass your extensive knowledge over the issue to the masses either.

Technically bitcoins are created by miners and never move from the place in the blockchain where they were placed, or precisely the block where they showed up originally. People only move around digitally signed ownership contracts over bitcoins, not the physical possession over a tangible object. Think bigger, don't be dense. You are entitled to use your bitcoins if you can properly sign the property transfer with your private keys. Bitcoins don't suddenly cease to exists if you are incapable to prove ownership of them.

I could go on for a while but I count on your higher than average intellect to grasp this concept right away.

You've got nothing.

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June 01, 2013, 05:24:23 PM
 #551

Technically bitcoins are created by miners and never move from the place in the blockchain where they were placed, or precisely the block where they showed up originally. People only move around digitally signed ownership contracts over bitcoins, not the physical possession over a tangible object.
This is a wrong assumption, paraipan. Bitcoin blockchain is one giant digital storage. You are right, bitcoins never leave this digital storage, but they do move inside it from one shelf to another. The shelves of this storage are the existing (already present on the blockchain) and also the newly created public keys. This process actually represents moving digital objects in a digital coordinate system. This movement takes time to be completed and verified between 10 minutes and 1 hour.

In contrast, transfer of ownership is instantaneous. It takes couple of seconds just to sign a contract. For example, the so called off-chain bitcoin transactions will be what you describe and they shall be instantaneous.
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June 01, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
 #552

They can't confiscate funds in the customer's private wallet. 
This is exactly what I'm saying. If you offer your customers services that help them transact from one private wallet to another without being capable of confiscating their funds if you're ordered to, then you don't comply with current regulation. You'll be tagged money launderer.
An exchange cannot possibly transfer anything from my private wallet to another private wallet.  That would be impossible without controlling my wallet, and if they control my wallet they can confiscate my funds.  And no, it is not illegal to facilitate private trade.  That would make any flee market illegal.

Show me the regulation or go away in shame.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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June 01, 2013, 07:14:56 PM
 #553

a) highly doubt that TBH, at least for the last 18 months.

But is this based on anything at all or nothing whatsoever? Is it more of a "I don't believe black swans exist in Australia, in spite of me never having been there, on the grounds that all the swans I ever saw here in England were white and none even slightly gray", or is it more of a "I heard reports of black swans, but I've investigated the various places and could find none"?

b) it doesn't matter at all what I believe. it just matters how it is handled and regulated. handling and regulating it as a commodity/property would be one of the more stupid options.

You are basically arguing that "handling" whatever that means and regulation are going to follow the smart path or avoid the stupid options? Through what thought process exactly do you come to this conclusion? It's not supported historically, or by any sort of mechanism I can think of.

Other than that, regulation is irrelevant in this discussion. We are talking about what Bitcoins are. If for instance some government comes forth with regulation requiring water to be viewed as an alcohol this won't at all change the fact that water is an oxide. It will maintain the properties of oxides (such as inflammability) and not acquire the properties of alcohols.

More narrowly, in the discussion of title, which is a term of art, nobody has any title to any Bitcoin. The working of titles does not change with regulation.


a) it's an "I look at the sheer volume traded on the exchanges" since, say, beginning of this year. since OTC-volume is recorded exactly nowhere, it's safe to assume (imho) that it's lower. you prove me wrong. o shit, that's not what you do, you just spout insults and light straw men for arguments.

b) again, please read carefully. stop lighting straw men. it doesnt matter at all what bitcoin IS and what it is not, since obviously perceptions of this change according to the use bitcoin is put forward to. what does matter, however, is how bitcoin is handled and it does of course matter very much how it is regulated. regulation relies on a very narrow set of views upon one certain matter. this very narrow set of views turns into one very narrow set of laws. of the many things bitcoin could thus be oversimplified into being, "digital property" is the one that makes the least sense for the furthering of the acceptance of bitcoin, consequently its success.
regulation will not follow the smart path (backing the fuck off). but that doesn't mean that we in this forum should further these fucktarded views by encouraging a decrepit attempt to define it.
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June 01, 2013, 08:45:28 PM
 #554

a) it's an "I look at the sheer volume traded on the exchanges" since, say, beginning of this year. since OTC-volume is recorded exactly nowhere, it's safe to assume (imho) that it's lower. you prove me wrong. o shit, that's not what you do, you just spout insults and light straw men for arguments.

In this case I just nod and move on.

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June 01, 2013, 08:48:21 PM
 #555

a) it's an "I look at the sheer volume traded on the exchanges" since, say, beginning of this year. since OTC-volume is recorded exactly nowhere, it's safe to assume (imho) that it's lower. you prove me wrong. o shit, that's not what you do, you just spout insults and light straw men for arguments.

In this case I just nod and move on.


it's probably safe to fear you do NOT mean to leave the forums.
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June 01, 2013, 10:52:43 PM
 #556

it's probably safe to fear you do NOT mean to leave the forums.

Unlike you, I'm actually paid to hang out with all the idiots.

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June 02, 2013, 08:23:01 AM
 #557

it's probably safe to fear you do NOT mean to leave the forums.

Unlike you, I'm actually paid to hang out with all the idiots.

you've been looking into the abyss, it starts to show.
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June 02, 2013, 02:48:52 PM
 #558

What is this thread about? Would you mind trolling somewhere else? OP would you mind removing some noise? I come here to get updates on the project, not to read personal insults between others.

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June 02, 2013, 06:15:52 PM
 #559

What is this thread about? Would you mind trolling somewhere else? OP would you mind removing some noise? I come here to get updates on the project, not to read personal insults between others.
indeed, at least it bumps the thread with the hope of once actually having a pertinent update.

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June 03, 2013, 01:28:02 PM
 #560

What is this thread about? Would you mind trolling somewhere else? OP would you mind removing some noise? I come here to get updates on the project, not to read personal insults between others.
indeed, at least it bumps the thread with the hope of once actually having a pertinent update.

Oh look, Bitdragon.

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