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Author Topic: [BitFunder] Asset Exchange Marketplace + Rewritable Options Trading  (Read 129236 times)
kslaughter
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March 26, 2013, 05:45:45 AM
 #281

Apologies for starting this row by talking about AMC. It may have been a good idea to create a new thread for it. (Maybe a moderator can move these select comments to a new thread?)

Here is my point of view as an investor. This is just my opinion. And I think I've posted something similar on Burnside's thread too.

I believe in the broken window fallacy. Shit companies attract more shit companies on an exchange. Awesome companies attract more awesome companies on an exchange. While the exchange should try to remain neutral and not judge the valuation of the company, it should have some kind of a vetting process that gets rid of most obvious scams.

My suggestions on what would help:

1. Have a pre-IPO announce and wait period. Every IPO should be announced at least 1 week in advance. Let the potential investors read the description and the plans. And ask questions or seek clarifications. Only after the 1 week period has gone by - should the exchange decide to list the security or not - after going through the feedback.

2. Ask the promoters to reveal who they are and why they are capable. If they don't want to do so publicly, a trusted escrow should be used.

These 2 things should make sure worthless and possibly scam securities don't get listed.

Wisard, I think you are right that would have help me.  I did leave my name, address and gee cell phone number for everyone to view.
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March 26, 2013, 05:48:53 AM
 #282


Great over-reaction.  Nice escalation.  Good shift of focus.  Way to treat a "Tier 3" BitFunder customer.

The asset you side-step around had a thread up for discussion for some time before voters approved it.  It still does.  Post there.  I'm but one of many in charge of approvals and your contribution is welcome.

Instead of assuming the worst, how about we assume that I was an early investor in Asicminer, (I was, tho not nearly enough!) and saw similar potential here, (I did) then with 10 minutes of digging discovered that the guy is ordering gear (interstate commerce) thus conducting business under an unregistered trade name (mail fraud? IANAL) and claiming (falsely) the legal protection of incorporation.  How might that change your response?  (thank you? you're welcome.) Do I assume this was malicious?  (no)  After seeing all the claims of experience in the description do I assume this was inept?  (pretty much have to.  read the pdf's on the MO website I linked.)  Is it important for other investors to know?  (duh)  Does it leave me feeling good about the new AMC CEO?  (let's discuss...)

Quote
Any agreement of real world tangibility is at the sole agreement between any issuer and it's members.
BitFunder makes no definitive claims to being a mediator, arbitrator, or enforcer of these direct agreements.

So with AMC... is it real?  Or is it not?  I can't tell.  Where does it say?

Quote


He may have and offer other ideals and concepts in the future, but nothing is promised or guaranteed.

Did we read different descriptions?


burnside, can't seem to find your BTC Trading Corp registration, where do you have it registered?
kslaughter
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March 26, 2013, 05:50:28 AM
 #283

First off, I think you really need to take a few hours to relax.

Secondly,
There are many other assets out there asking for people to put their money in with little to less information, esp regarding company relations.

Third,
You are correct. BitFunder makes no claims or suggestions that users BTC holdings or shares have no real world value should the need arise to be questioned for/by users.
Furthermore, BitFunder makes no assertions, or suggestions that any holdings therein are purely virtual within a contained "virtual economic ecosystem" with no tie-in to anything tangible.
Any agreement of real world tangibility is at the sole agreement between any issuer and it's members.
BitFunder makes no definitive claims to being a mediator, arbitrator, or enforcer of these direct agreements.

Fourth,
Not sure that I poked fun as much as questioned it. To my understanding your current ToS is outdated. "Bits" and all that. You have not wanted to fix it for 3 months now.
I think far more people make fun of BitFunders. Wink

Additionally,
When investing into anything that is pseudo-anonymous and unregulated online, you should always do your research, and check things out as best as you can.
Especially if they are claiming to be purely virtual to begin with, leaving little to no legal standing for any sort of recourse of action should it be needed.
No matter how hard you try, or what you check into, it is a gamble. You can only try your best.

As an operator, I try to keep an objective mind open about all assets. I will question the ones that sound funny to me, and look for what facts that can be determined.
I have my personal opinion on many assets. I can say I think X is a scam because of Y, or Z is a scam because they just over charge, or that Y is begging for money for
something I think will never take off. However, because I am an operator, that puts me in a very delicate position publicly. For this reason I try to keep those final thoughts
to myself, or to a few people who I may talk to privately about.

When it comes to BitFunder, I try to give everyone a fair chance. If they have something that has a possible chance of being worth investing in, regardless of if other people agree with it, think its overpriced, or whatever their personal opinions may be of it, it's worth letting them post it.

A good example would be if someone made a quick demo website, and said they wanted to post it for investments before launching, with no intentions to use the funds towards the website in question, no registered business, and asking for half a million dollars or more.
I would probably be highly wary of a possible scam, especially if the site required a registered entity to do its business and did not even have that ready.
While I might not outright deny such a high risk asset request, I would put special limitations on it.
In this case, since the funds are not required for the site to open, the income would remain frozen until the site fully launched, and proved it could do the things it claims.
This way users funds are at least protected to some extent, and a few minutes of work and some claims of what might happen in the future does not cost people tens, to hundreds of thousands in losses if the business was to never get registered, had launch problems, the banks close accounts, or the guy simply gives up an disappears with the funds.
All this without a promise to pay back the funding, because it was meant to go right into pocket regardless of what happens.
I do not know of other exchanges that would enforce such a thing on the users behalf before allowing it to launch currently.
Then again, there are only 5 or so and I could be highly mistaken. Smiley

In the case of AMC, he has proven (to the best that can be at the moment) that he has purchased some equipment, and looking for investment into the possible earnings of the equipment.
He may have and offer other ideals and concepts in the future, but nothing is promised or guaranteed. Since the current equipment has already been purchased for the asset, who is anyone to question what prices he sets to be part of it? Sure, he could set a price higher than most might pay. This just means that most.. will not pay it. People have minds to decide their own personal risk factor. Do I agree with his pricing? Honestly, it is a matter of personal opinion. No different than peoples opinions of what price per share of Satoshi Dice or AsicMiner should traded at. As mentioned above, I think it's irreverent more so because it is my opinion.

A good many current day traded assets were funded based off of hopes and dreams of issuers. Some higher priced, some lower at their listing time.
Some who's dreams come true, some who's seen a horrible fate and may have even been able to at least get back some or all of their losses to look towards a new dream.

Final Thoughts:
Investors Beware. Always. Investing is a risk. Do not risk anything you can not afford to loose. Regardless of any documentations, or any other provided information.





Ukto, thanks for standing up a little for me, I will take over from here.
kslaughter
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March 26, 2013, 05:55:56 AM
 #284

I'm assuming AMC only used that delivery name and address as a formality, possibly before this new company was even conceived. The annual report is likely meaningless. Could just be that the guy runs a mining biz on the side and realized that being formally incorporated was overkill. I dunno...

I do agree that AMC as an asset covers a lot of areas (mining, dev, etc), making themselves a target for skepticism, and that they should find a way to segment things better. But hey, maybe that's why the asset has been frozen all weekend...

Anyway, wouldn't you say that AMC cannot represent a real security, as that would be illegal in the US. Isn't this all just "virtual" trading? Wink

Why am I chiming in? Mostly because the passive-aggressive marketing/bickering between BTCT and BF on features, assets, volume, etc, is nonsense. You both thrive off of each other, and the more time either of you spend focusing on the other, the less time you spend actually getting shit done so I can make more money using your systems Cheesy


This is NOT bickering and I did not take replying to someone else's post in the BitFunder thread lightly.  I knew damn well someone would bring it up, but outside of your comment answered in the next paragraph, this has nothing to do with BitFunder.  This is saving the fucking investors their money because noone has done any legwork or discussion on it anywhere.  (Incidentally, I didn't even start the discussion here?!)

I don't recall seeing any "it's virtual" claims anywhere on BitFunder.  (in fact, Ukyo has poked fun at btct.co for our legal efforts... https://btct.co/register ... https://bitfunder.com/terms/ )  And do I have to create a sock now just so I can discuss glaring issues with securities without being second-guessed?

This issuer is wanting to be the next BFL and is asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  The issuer is actively using unregistered trade names, which seems to have gone on twice in this IPO.  Most importantly, it demonstrates clearly the issuer's lack of awareness of the legal landscape.

AMC really should setup their own thread. It would be a better place to discuss it. Smiley

That would be good.


burnside, not twice, I was just providing proof of my orders which I like to have a company name on.  Yes, the Virtual Mining, Inc. lapsed, because I was working with Achronix on their 22nm FPGA which turned out to be to slow and cost to much, so I did not need the corporation any more.  How ever I am going to register it again.  If you really want me to I can pay the $10 for a fictitious name if that would make you happy.
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March 26, 2013, 05:56:55 AM
 #285

AMC really should setup their own thread. It would be a better place to discuss it. Smiley
I have sent them a message asking to start a forum thread for you to discuss it with them.
They do have quite a few things needing discussion.

Sorry if my message is short, trying to push out an update. Fixing a firefox conflict. Wink

Just did, ask me any question you want.  I would be happy to answer any question you
may have.
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March 26, 2013, 05:57:05 AM
 #286

Even though the bitfunder summary states that "AMC is made up of a team of dedicated Bitcoin mining professionals with over 30 years of combined experience in Computer Programming, Hardware Design, System Design, and System Administration" - I doubt that they have ever mined before.

More worrying is that nowhere in that skill-set/experience list is "managed a business" or "can do basic math".

Personally I'm pretty sick of all the IPOs that claim to have experienced teams but never identify them.  If IPOs can be that vague then why not cut them right down to the minimum - and have them just give a share price and send back whatever they feel like.  At least that would be honest and cut down the reading time for us.

Deprived you are right I should of listed my business experence of 42 years and the fact that I created a nationwide Internet Service Provider (Active Internet Communications) on the domain axs.net.
"Active Internet Communications" has being administratively dissolved.

(Also, 7 posts in a row?? Really in a hurry to get your post count bumped up..)
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March 26, 2013, 06:01:18 AM
 #287

I'm assuming AMC only used that delivery name and address as a formality, possibly before this new company was even conceived. The annual report is likely meaningless. Could just be that the guy runs a mining biz on the side and realized that being formally incorporated was overkill. I dunno...

I do agree that AMC as an asset covers a lot of areas (mining, dev, etc), making themselves a target for skepticism, and that they should find a way to segment things better. But hey, maybe that's why the asset has been frozen all weekend...

Anyway, wouldn't you say that AMC cannot represent a real security, as that would be illegal in the US. Isn't this all just "virtual" trading? Wink

Why am I chiming in? Mostly because the passive-aggressive marketing/bickering between BTCT and BF on features, assets, volume, etc, is nonsense. You both thrive off of each other, and the more time either of you spend focusing on the other, the less time you spend actually getting shit done so I can make more money using your systems Cheesy


ThickAsThieves, Yes it was designed to be a hybrid mining and development coop, this was to give the investors more protection.  Ukto suggested that we purchase ASICMiner shares, which I think is a good idea with cash(Bitcoins) which is not being used. i.e waiting on mining machines to be purchased, R&D not being used but needed the future, commitment of cash not being used but needed in the future.
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March 26, 2013, 06:02:23 AM
 #288

So this is about a new security listed on Bitfunder. AMC.

They state that they will earn:

Quote
Est Gross(less power) Revenue 12 Months 2,847,472.08 BTC

How can anyone who is into mining make such a calculation mistake? How will they be making 2.8 million bitcoins with mining when only about 1.3 million bitcoins will be generated in a year?

Seriously, some vetting process needs to happen for companies that are being listed on exchanges.

Maybe it is supposed to be in satoshis?

Yes, I made a mistake due to the fact of Avalon's 4X price increase and 3 days notice on batch 3.
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March 26, 2013, 06:05:02 AM
 #289

So this is about a new security listed on Bitfunder. AMC.

They state that they will earn:

Quote
Est Gross(less power) Revenue 12 Months 2,847,472.08 BTC

How can anyone who is into mining make such a calculation mistake? How will they be making 2.8 million bitcoins with mining when only about 1.3 million bitcoins will be generated in a year?

Seriously, some vetting process needs to happen for companies that are being listed on exchanges. Promoter information should be listed - who they are, what experience do they have.

Wisard, You are right how could they make a mistake like that, being in a hurry when Avalon announced their 4X price increase and 3 days notice for batch 3 that is how.  All my personal information name, address and gee cell phone number on my Avalon receipts.  Any more questions?  Give me a call.
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March 26, 2013, 06:05:48 AM
 #290


Great over-reaction.  Nice escalation.  Good shift of focus.  Way to treat a "Tier 3" BitFunder customer.

The asset you side-step around had a thread up for discussion for some time before voters approved it.  It still does.  Post there.  I'm but one of many in charge of approvals and your contribution is welcome.

Instead of assuming the worst, how about we assume that I was an early investor in Asicminer, (I was, tho not nearly enough!) and saw similar potential here, (I did) then with 10 minutes of digging discovered that the guy is ordering gear (interstate commerce) thus conducting business under an unregistered trade name (mail fraud? IANAL) and claiming (falsely) the legal protection of incorporation.  How might that change your response?  (thank you? you're welcome.) Do I assume this was malicious?  (no)  After seeing all the claims of experience in the description do I assume this was inept?  (pretty much have to.  read the pdf's on the MO website I linked.)  Is it important for other investors to know?  (duh)  Does it leave me feeling good about the new AMC CEO?  (let's discuss...)

Quote
Any agreement of real world tangibility is at the sole agreement between any issuer and it's members.
BitFunder makes no definitive claims to being a mediator, arbitrator, or enforcer of these direct agreements.

So with AMC... is it real?  Or is it not?  I can't tell.  Where does it say?

Quote


He may have and offer other ideals and concepts in the future, but nothing is promised or guaranteed.

Did we read different descriptions?


burnside, can't seem to find your BTC Trading Corp registration, where do you have it registered?


I'll go ahead and let you figure that out.

(hint, page footer...)
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March 26, 2013, 06:08:17 AM
 #291

What happened to your former venture and why was it administratively dissolved?
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March 26, 2013, 06:15:39 AM
 #292

burnside, not twice, I was just providing proof of my orders which I like to have a company name on.  Yes, the Virtual Mining, Inc. lapsed, because I was working with Achronix on their 22nm FPGA which turned out to be to slow and cost to much, so I did not need the corporation any more.  How ever I am going to register it again.  If you really want me to I can pay the $10 for a fictitious name if that would make you happy.

I said twice because I couldn't find your cooperative registration in the db.  Have you read the dissolution notices they mailed you?  It's illegal for you to conduct business under a dissolved name in the state of Missouri.  Make yourself happy and spend the $10.

Edit: and make Ukyo happy while you're at it and start a new thread.   Grin
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March 26, 2013, 06:19:21 AM
 #293

I have already check OR, not there.  So you want to hide it. 
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March 26, 2013, 06:28:43 AM
Last edit: March 26, 2013, 07:04:40 AM by kslaughter
 #294

What happened to your former venture and why was it administratively dissolved?

Didn't need the Corporation any more, I was working with Achronix on their 22nm FPGA, it was to slow and cost to much.  My re-register the corp in Delaware.
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March 26, 2013, 06:32:35 AM
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What happened to your former venture and why was it administratively dissolved?

Did need the Corporation any more, I was working with Achronix on their 22nm FPGA, it was to slow and cost to much.  My re-register the corp in Delaware.
Maybe now you could stop ignoring my wager? What escrow do you want to use for our 100 BTC bet or are you going to chicken out because you know you're not going to (i) finish 45nm ASIC mining chips that do 6GH/s each (fyi, ASICMINER's are ~300 MH/s or something) and (ii) get over 50% of the network hashpower
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March 26, 2013, 06:42:45 AM
 #296

I have already check OR, not there.  So you want to hide it. 


Did you look at the site at all?

Read any of the forum threads?

Me thinks no.
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March 26, 2013, 02:33:32 PM
 #297

can someone ELI5 how i get my BTC out of bitfunder?
linked bitfunder to wecxchange... twice... no funds.

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March 26, 2013, 03:54:03 PM
 #298

can someone ELI5 how i get my BTC out of bitfunder?
linked bitfunder to wecxchange... twice... no funds.



Once you've linked Bitfunder to your Weex you have to actually do a withdrawal in Bitfunder - then the funds will move to Weex.  Your Bitfunder balance does NOT automatically become visible in Weex.
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March 26, 2013, 06:39:59 PM
 #299

Hi there,

Given that I only use weexchange to get funds into Bitfunder, can I set this to be automated? I.e. any bitcoins credited to my weexchange account get direct transfered into bitfunder after the required number of confirmations?

Thanks.

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March 26, 2013, 07:14:01 PM
 #300

Hi there,

Given that I only use weexchange to get funds into Bitfunder, can I set this to be automated? I.e. any bitcoins credited to my weexchange account get direct transfered into bitfunder after the required number of confirmations?

Thanks.

Myrddin

Its really pretty easy and instant to transfer once you have in weex to get into bitfunder.

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