[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[Bogart]

It's also been handled very very poorly. If BFL had said, prior to opening their pre-order window, look we've got this guy that got into some trouble and we're giving him a second chance because we believe he's changed then that would've been one thing.

They did not do this and instead hid his last name, failed to disclose his past, and then shuffled his job description once he was found out. They've handled this even worse than they have their numerous delay announcements.

Those who are in that situation are usually open about it, but some are not. In either case, you don't publicly advertise that fact! Show me a single commercial company that makes it a point to point out one of their employees as a felon. You're more likely to get sued by the employee then gain more customers thru "transparency".

Again, Sonny is NOT just "one of their employees", he was their CEO and is now an officer with the company as is his brother. If their janitor was a crook I wouldn't care much, but a company officer and former CEO? Yeah that's important investor information and should plainly be disclosed PRIOR to accepting funds.

Not just a random felon.

This isn't some guy who copped an felony record because he got caught smoking meth.

Sonny played a key role in an international mail fraud operation that fleeced an enormous number of innocent victims out of quite a few MILLIONs of dollars, over the course of YEARS, and involved many co-conspirators.

As for disclosure, I think BFL has been forthright enough about it.  When asked point blank if their Sonny was the same Sonny named in the court documents, Josh confirmed it.

Now that you know this, you are free to cancel based on this information.

This is bitcoin, it's the wild west.  It's not like your pre-order was a NYSE registered security that came with a giant prospectus filled of every disclosure possible.

[YipYip]

Maybe I am slow...

Yes, I believe you have demonstrated this.

Learn Me some more about 12 Centuary Catholic Dogma....

What the actual fuck does that have to do with anything?

U are 12th centuary Catholic France... where people only believed in the world being flat so anybody who questioned this was brought to the inquisition..this is you...lol

Also the "fuck" part ...I shoot I score ...the crowd goes wild as we win the pennant  

[YipYip]

Let me check what I said "working prototype"  maybe clocked down so as to not produce too much heat to reach the fail point

Please explain why you think they had a prototype that worked perfectly except for heat issues that would be easily fixed by downclocking and then didn't bother to demonstrate it.

U certainly exhibit some rather 1 sided view points...I can see that there is no point discussing anything with u

Get a goddamn mirror.

I heard you say it..I am sure u said "THEY HAVE WORKING PROTOTYPE"

I think you told the Pope in the confessional..but i was secretly recording your conversations as part of my study on 12 century Catholic France. Its going into the  book I am writing..There will be a chapter called "ASICS & the Catholic conspiracy" 

... REALLY loling now...

Going to stop has been fun..Cheers

BFL delivery maybe..maybe not who knows maybe the POPE

[nathanrees19]

So you think the delivery company will fail to deliver them?

No I think u are trying to verbal my answer & twist the meaning.....nice

...Oh yeah I meant that the delivery company is to blame...i loled & loled

I know this is a correct interpertation in 12 centuary France but i live in Australia (did i mention that)

I asked specifically at which point the failure would be expected. An ignorant "HERP DERP THEY WONT DELIVER" is not a specific point.

[nathanrees19]

U are 12th centuary Catholic France... where people only believed in the world being flat so anybody who questioned this was brought to the inquisition..this is you...lol

I'm quite surprised that you think that I think like that.

Also the "fuck" part ...I shoot I score ...the crowd goes wild as we win the pennant  

Trolling successful! 10/10.

[nathanrees19]

I heard you say it..I am sure u said "THEY HAVE WORKING PROTOTYPE"

Please quote it.

maybe the POPE

Your obsession with catholicism is quite strange...

[YipYip]

So you think the delivery company will fail to deliver them?

No I think u are trying to verbal my answer & twist the meaning.....nice

...Oh yeah I meant that the delivery company is to blame...i loled & loled

I know this is a correct interpertation in 12 centuary France but i live in Australia (did i mention that)

I asked specifically at which point the failure would be expected. An ignorant "HERP DERP THEY WONT DELIVER" is not a specific point.

Ok there complete methodology or lack of it

Not going to pull it out again but there was something like 3 steps

Simulate
Full production Run
Build & deliver

This methodology "points" to failure

Normally in s/w there would be 8 phases & a working (i say it again "working" so u can hear it) Proof of Concept would be part of that Methodology

The fact that there is

1) 3 steps instead of 5-10+ steps
2) No working unit

High % of failure

Maybe in 12 century Catholic France the 3 step was also a new dance so lets apply it to Custom ASIC production

[YipYip]

I heard you say it..I am sure u said "THEY HAVE WORKING PROTOTYPE"

Please quote it.

maybe the POPE

Your obsession with catholicism is quite strange...

I have the recording here from when I was in 12 century france and placed a bug in the confessional ..

I saw u and the pope go in and I got it "They have a working prototype my dark lord" (had to add star wars reference there )

I jumped back in my time machine & came back to write this post...lol

SO happy right now ...

Its all good I hear what u r saying there are some valid points ..I have some valid points and time will decide

Or we could use my time machine but i promised to only use it for 12 century Catholic research

[Bogart]

I asked specifically at which point the failure would be expected. An ignorant "HERP DERP THEY WONT DELIVER" is not a specific point.

Possible answers from someone who isn't stupid would be "the fab won't have finished all the layers in time" or "the packaging will take longer than expected" or "chips will get stuck in customs" or "functional testing will fail" or "thermal/environmental testing will fail" etc.

That one.  (In bold above.)

NO PROTOTYPE

How do you know there was no prototype? A prototype with major issues (eg. overheating or reliability issues) would not be something they would want to brag about or produce demos of, but they would learn what they need to produce a full run of working chips.

Um, the batch of chips that was received in December was a full-wafer run.  I believe Josh mentioned 100k chips.

The ones with the major overheating and clock stability issues.

[Syke]

Not going to pull it out again but there was something like 3 steps

Simulate
Full production Run
Build & deliver

It's quite logical. They've shown no demo, therefore they've never build a prototype. Since there was no prototype, they never had actual chips. Their latest update is all about how the simulations in December showed barely acceptable limits. Hence, they're still at phase-1, "Simulate". The odds of them shipping final products "Week of February 10th" is virtually nil.

[Miner99er]

There's a couple people on this board that have a unhealthy obsession with religion.

Usually Catholicism... but I digress.

Someone said they can't imagine dissapating 60w of heat cause their 300w video card can do it.

Imagine 60w of heat pumping into the PCB, not out through cooler. That's the problem with QFN packages as opposed to BGA packages.

Also, the chip is flipped upside down, so the chip part is close to the Cooler.

[nathanrees19]

I asked specifically at which point the failure would be expected. An ignorant "HERP DERP THEY WONT DELIVER" is not a specific point.

Possible answers from someone who isn't stupid would be "the fab won't have finished all the layers in time" or "the packaging will take longer than expected" or "chips will get stuck in customs" or "functional testing will fail" or "thermal/environmental testing will fail" etc.

That one.  (In bold above.)

Agreed. If there is to be a problem, that would be the most serious.

I was largely testing the other poster

NO PROTOTYPE

How do you know there was no prototype? A prototype with major issues (eg. overheating or reliability issues) would not be something they would want to brag about or produce demos of, but they would learn what they need to produce a full run of working chips.

Um, the batch of chips that was received in December was a full-wafer run.  I believe Josh mentioned 100k chips.

The ones with the major overheating and clock stability issues.

That may very well be true, and I hope for their sake that they learned everything they could from those chips if that's the case.

[nathanrees19]

Hence, they're still at phase-1, "Simulate".

That's probably wrong.

If the chips they received (prototype or otherwise) had clocking issues, then they never would have been able to run them at anything remotely close to full speed (ie. max heat). Simulation is not only done in "phase 1".

[Bogart]

What none of these ASIC vendors seem eager to point out to us is that the process of making an ASIC is not just a linear set of steps, but has conditional branching statements.  Something like:

1: Design
2: Simulate
3: Produce a prototype on MPW, get it wirebound and packaged, then delivered.
4: Test the prototype.  If testing fails, go to step 1.
5: Full wafer production, etc, more steps.

The hard part is getting past step 4.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

What none of these ASIC vendors seem eager to point out to us is that the process of making an ASIC is not just a linear set of steps, but has conditional branching statements.  Something like:

1: Design
2: Simulate
3: Produce a prototype on MPW, get it wirebound and packaged, then delivered.
4: Test the prototype.  If testing fails, go to step 1.
5: Full wafer production, etc, more steps.

The hard part is getting past step 4.

http://www.edaboard.com/thread129919.html

Re: TO be ASIC or not

If you are not experienced in ASIC design you should contact an ASIC design company to help you through the process. They offer tools, relationships and expertise that you will need to get it done.

The design process, in broad strokes, is as follows:

1. Write a specification that defines what the chip is suposed to do. Try to include example input files and desired outputs. The spec should also cover things like desired packaging with its pin configuration, what power supply will be used, etc.

2. Write an executable description of the chip behavior. This is usually in an RTL (register transfer level) language like Verilog or VHDL. Sometimes a higher level model of the chip is constructed first using C, C++ or System-C. But eventually you end up with an RTL description.

3. Perform functional simulation of the RTL to verify if it does what you want it to do.

4. Synthesize the RTL description to a gate level dscription that targets a particular foundry's library (e.g.: use Synopsys' Design Compiler tool or similar).

5. Implement the physical design of the chip with an automated place & route tool (e.g.: from Cadence, Synopsys, Magma or Mentor Graphics)

6. Perform physical verification to check that the chip layout matches what you wanted and meets all physical design rules.

7. Send the final layout and some test vectors to the fabrication partner to make, test and package some prototype chips.

8. Test the physical prototypes to verify they work. If they work you can go straight to volume production. If they don't, you will have to correct the error and make some more prototypes.

[YipYip]

What none of these ASIC vendors seem eager to point out to us is that the process of making an ASIC is not just a linear set of steps, but has conditional branching statements.  Something like:

1: Design
2: Simulate
3: Produce a prototype on MPW, get it wirebound and packaged, then delivered.
4: Test the prototype.  If testing fails, go to step 1.
5: Full wafer production, etc, more steps.

The hard part is getting past step 4.

I am in s/w not h/w but i agree a 5 step process with multiple iterations

This has not occured...the RISK factor is high

If this is the process that they have followed & it works I will take my hat off to them because I could not achieve this result as it is really a roll of the device  (if this is the process that they have followed)

[CharlieContent]

If the engineers are in on it, their professional career is dead, so the scam would need to support them for the rest of their life.

Can you name three BFL engineers?

Let me guess, you're thinking "if a random forum poster can't name three engineers, their careers are 100% safe if they're all involved in a scam and they know this".

He's probably thinking that if BFL are running a scam then they don't need to hire engineers with reputations that aren't worth losing for a big scam, or even any engineers at all.

If you could name three BFL engineers with reputations so solid that they would have a financial disincentive to take a share in a big scam rather than continue lucrative careers then it would definitely give them a lot more legitimacy.

The only employees I am aware of are the convicted fraudster CEO and Josh, who is so extremely unprofessional it is beyond belief.

Three people on LinkedIn have Butterfly Labs on their profiles. None of them are engineers.

[SgtSpike]

So, you all saw this right?

I have seen it already a month ago, 2 months ago, 3 months ago, 4 months ago... How many times should I watch this movies again and again?

Tis certainly entirely up to you.  Get a refund if you're tired of it.

Do u work for BFL ?

Nope.  Though to be fair, they did pay me to advertise my signature space a while back (along with many others).

I just like to defend against logical fallacies.  You know, the whole "Someone is WRONG on the internet!" xkcd thing?  Yeah, that's me.  

Working for BFl was a bit over the top.....we all make mistakes

"Would have run by now" thats the only thing that is really shaky in  my book

We all have our crosses to bear (Catholic) or Allahu Akba to my muslim friends & Hey "i brought a goat" for my pagan brothers  

I just can't understand why BFL would still be around (along with all it's 25 paid employees) if they were scammers.  What would they be trying to accomplish right now?  They are losing money that they could have run with every day, both through issuance of refunds and through payment of rent/employees/etc, and Josh in particular is spending a great deal of time creating elaborate stories and specific details that they couldn't release earlier not.  If they were scammers, why didn't they make up these stories much earlier on?  Why not give out these details from day one?  Or at the very least, months ago?  I just see so many things that point to them not being scammers, I really can't see it as a serious possibility.

[nathanrees19]

I just can't understand why BFL would still be around (along with all it's 25 paid employees) if they were scammers.  What would they be trying to accomplish right now?  They are losing money that they could have run with every day, both through issuance of refunds and through payment of rent/employees/etc, and Josh in particular is spending a great deal of time creating elaborate stories and specific details that they couldn't release earlier not.  If they were scammers, why didn't they make up these stories much earlier on?  Why not give out these details from day one?  Or at the very least, months ago?  I just see so many things that point to them not being scammers, I really can't see it as a serious possibility.

Well, if it is a scam, that's exactly what they want you to think...

[CharlieContent]

along with all it's 25 paid employees

Who are these employees? I know a lot of people get accused of working for them, haha, but I am yet to see many people actually come out and say they are working for them. As I already said, there are only 3 on LinkedIn.

If they actually are employing 25 people who have solid careers behind them, then yeah, it is a good point. However at this point (as far as I know) all we have is their word that they have 25 employees. Please correct me if I am wrong.