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Author Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum  (Read 68133 times)
BR0KK
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January 09, 2013, 08:37:58 AM
 #1601

this really reminds me of tom's post that he also licensed (or something along that line...) that he also sells his chip to another company.

hiccups with tom = hiccups for bfl.

inaba pretends to be all pissy with tom, when actually bfl "sourced" the same "chips" to tom.


hmmmmmmm.

/tinfoil
Only that Tom has no chips and never had them.

I've written that before somewhere:
The only way I think the ASIC wet dream can become true is if there actually is a working SHA-256 chip available. This would be from a third party supplier and  all the current "ASIC outlets" would use in their products the same way you can buy different brands of RAM while the chips are produced at a few places around the world. They just assemble the modules.

If they finaly are released and arrive we could/should do some reverse engineering with the chips. There is a company that does that for you (They sand of the package and stuff --> http://www.chipworks.com

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January 09, 2013, 08:55:05 AM
 #1602

this really reminds me of tom's post that he also licensed (or something along that line...) that he also sells his chip to another company.

hiccups with tom = hiccups for bfl.

inaba pretends to be all pissy with tom, when actually bfl "sourced" the same "chips" to tom.


hmmmmmmm.

/tinfoil

I could imagine Josh being pissed at Tom whether Tom stole BFL's thunder as a re-seller...or simply muscled in on a particular niche in the ecosystem of fraud.

---

By way of brainstorming about a potential vanishing act for BFL, here's a possibility:  They could say that they themselves were scammed by a supplier.  They were strung along and had to spend a bulk of the pre-order money.  Then it turned out that the vendor was actually a scammer who was also scamming others (like Tom) and everyone should feel sorry for them after they tried poured their souls and a lot of their own money just trying to help the Bitcoin project prosper.


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January 09, 2013, 09:14:12 AM
 #1603

this really reminds me of tom's post that he also licensed (or something along that line...) that he also sells his chip to another company.

hiccups with tom = hiccups for bfl.

inaba pretends to be all pissy with tom, when actually bfl "sourced" the same "chips" to tom.


hmmmmmmm.

/tinfoil
Only that Tom has no chips and never had them.

I've written that before somewhere:
The only way I think the ASIC wet dream can become true is if there actually is a working SHA-256 chip available. This would be from a third party supplier and  all the current "ASIC outlets" would use in their products the same way you can buy different brands of RAM while the chips are produced at a few places around the world. They just assemble the modules.

If they finaly are released and arrive we could/should do some reverse engineering with the chips. There is a company that does that for you (They sand of the package and stuff --> http://www.chipworks.com)  
Yes, however apart from realizing that they all use the same chips there wouldn't be not much we can do with it.

The thing that strikes me with BFL/bASIC & co is that it seems they took preorders before actually sourcing the chips. The thing is there are plenty of SHA-256 ip cores available but none of those are in silicon, they are just designs. So what it seems now is that they got ahead of themselves and dreamed up a product based on a non-existing solution.
That alone would be fraudulent if it isn't a straight out scam from the beginning.
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January 09, 2013, 09:37:20 AM
 #1604

this really reminds me of tom's post that he also licensed (or something along that line...) that he also sells his chip to another company.

hiccups with tom = hiccups for bfl.

inaba pretends to be all pissy with tom, when actually bfl "sourced" the same "chips" to tom.


hmmmmmmm.

/tinfoil
Only that Tom has no chips and never had them.

I've written that before somewhere:
The only way I think the ASIC wet dream can become true is if there actually is a working SHA-256 chip available. This would be from a third party supplier and  all the current "ASIC outlets" would use in their products the same way you can buy different brands of RAM while the chips are produced at a few places around the world. They just assemble the modules.

If they finaly are released and arrive we could/should do some reverse engineering with the chips. There is a company that does that for you (They sand of the package and stuff --> http://www.chipworks.com)  
Yes, however apart from realizing that they all use the same chips there wouldn't be not much we can do with it.

The thing that strikes me with BFL/bASIC & co is that it seems they took preorders before actually sourcing the chips. The thing is there are plenty of SHA-256 ip cores available but none of those are in silicon, they are just designs. So what it seems now is that they got ahead of themselves and dreamed up a product based on a non-existing solution.
That alone would be fraudulent if it isn't a straight out scam from the beginning.
General:
Why aren't we seeing some of the "pissed of preorder costumers" filing a case against BFL?
--> I know.... its greed to get a unit before others.

What i can't understand is why someone would order from them in the first place (especially now with al the delays) ....
Secondly i hope that old FPGA customers come to there senses, that sending in their precious units is highly risky ...

To Chips:
If we know the ip core we enable others to hitchhike on the asic train to release real competition Smiley

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January 09, 2013, 10:10:47 AM
 #1605

So they show up at CES without a single working device. Not even a Jalapeno -> not even one working ASIC chip.

Um, you never produce "one" ASIC chip. If they had one, they would have thousands, and they would have already shipped. I feel like I'm repeating myself...
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January 09, 2013, 01:10:30 PM
 #1606

So they show up at CES without a single working device. Not even a Jalapeno -> not even one working ASIC chip.

Um, you never produce "one" ASIC chip. If they had one, they would have thousands, and they would have already shipped.

I never said ASICs are produced by the piece.

But you can have a test wafer (with a couple hundred chips, depending on die size) that's processed with another batch (so 49 wafers of product A and 1 wafer with my test chips).

You never do 50 wafers with a design where you actually don't know if it's working or not. If the chips are borked you'd lose some 100K USD!


Quote
I feel like I'm repeating myself...

Possibly. That's why you are a troll.

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Website     Announcement     Twitter     Facebook
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#BEL+++


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January 09, 2013, 01:58:57 PM
 #1607

So they show up at CES without a single working device. Not even a Jalapeno -> not even one working ASIC chip.

Um, you never produce "one" ASIC chip. If they had one, they would have thousands, and they would have already shipped.


You never do 50 wafers with a design where you actually don't know if it's working or not. If the chips are borked you'd lose some 100K USD!


hihi, you mean BFL possibly not produce a test wafer of it's ASIC design?? right, they did not collect enough money from preorders so they were not able to finance this...  Roll Eyes
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January 09, 2013, 02:19:49 PM
 #1608

So they show up at CES without a single working device. Not even a Jalapeno -> not even one working ASIC chip.

Um, you never produce "one" ASIC chip. If they had one, they would have thousands, and they would have already shipped.


You never do 50 wafers with a design where you actually don't know if it's working or not. If the chips are borked you'd lose some 100K USD!


hihi, you mean BFL possibly not produce a test wafer of it's ASIC design?? right, they did not collect enough money from preorders so they were not able to finance this...  Roll Eyes

I'm not going to pull it up, but BFL has confirmed that they didn't do an MPW test run. I would guess it has nothing at all to do with money and is simply that they were confident in the original design and didn't want to wait a half a year for an MPW to finish.
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January 09, 2013, 02:39:14 PM
 #1609


General:
Why aren't we seeing some of the "pissed of preorder costumers" filing a case against BFL?
--> I know.... its greed to get a unit before others.

What i can't understand is why someone would order from them in the first place (especially now with al the delays) ....
Secondly i hope that old FPGA customers come to there senses, that sending in their precious units is highly risky ...

To Chips:
If we know the ip core we enable others to hitchhike on the asic train to release real competition Smiley

US consumer complaints https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en
Then go to your state Attorney General and File a compliant.

Note: If you do this and say something about expect the BFL kool aid crew to troll you and your ignore button to be the color of mine.

I Called most of this crap months ago, They are now Really close to having to comply with this

From FTC http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/products/pro28.shtm
Quote
Shopping by Phone or Mail
Produced in cooperation with the Direct Marketing Association and AARP
Shopping by phone or mail is a convenient alternative to shopping at a store. The Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) Mail or Telephone Order Rule covers merchandise your order by mail, telephone, computer, and fax machine.

Mail or Telephone Order Rule

By law, a company should ship your order within the time stated in its ads. If no time is promised, the company should ship your order within 30 days after receiving it.
If the company is unable to ship within the promised time, they must give you an “option notice.” This notice gives you the choice of agreeing to the delay or canceling your order and receiving a prompt refund.

There is one exception to the 30-day Rule: if a company doesn’t promise a shipping time, and you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase, the company has 50 days to ship after receiving your order.

Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA)

You’re protected by the FCBA when you use your credit card to pay for purchases.

Billing Errors

If you find an error on your credit or charge card statement, you may dispute the charge and withhold payment on the disputed amount while the charge is in dispute. The error might be a charge for the wrong amount, for something you did not accept, or for an item that was not delivered as agreed. Of course, you still must pay any part of the bill that is not in dispute, including finance charges on the undisputed amount.

If you decide to dispute a charge:

Write to the creditor at the address indicated on the monthly statement for “billing inquiries.” Include your name, address, credit card number, and a description of the billing error.
Send your letter in a timely fashion. It must reach the creditor within 60 days after the first bill containing the error was mailed to you.
The creditor must acknowledge your complaint in writing within 30 days after receiving it, unless the problem has been resolved. The creditor must resolve the dispute within two billing cycles (but not more than 90 days) after receiving your letter.

Unsatisfactory Goods or Services

You also may dispute charges for unsatisfactory goods or services. To take advantage of this protection regarding the quality of goods or services, you must:

have made the purchase in your home state or within 100 miles of your current billing address. The charge must be for more than $50;
make a good faith effort first to resolve the dispute with the seller. However, you are not required to use any special procedure to do so.
Note that the dollar and distance limitations don’t apply if the seller also is the card issuer or if a special business relationship exists between the seller and the card issuer.

Precautions

Before ordering by phone or mail, consider your experience with the company or its general reputation. Determine the company’s refund and return policies, the product’s availability, and the total cost of your order.

Contacts for Resolving Problems

If you have problems with mail or phone order purchases, try to resolve your dispute with the company. If that doesn’t work, the following resources may be helpful:

State and local consumer protection offices. Contact the offices in your home state and where the company is located.
Postal Inspectors. Call your local post office and ask for the Inspector-in-Charge.
Reducing Direct Marketing Solicitations

You may want to have your name removed from direct marketing lists. Be aware, however, that if you purchase goods by phone or mail after your name is removed, it may be added again. You may want to make a new request to have your name removed every few years. You also may want to ask mail or telephone order companies to retain your name on in-house lists only.

Telemarketing

The Federal Government has created the National Do Not Call Registry—the free, easy way to reduce the telemarketing calls you get at home. To register, or to get information, visit www.donotcall.gov, or call 1-888-382-1222 from the phone you want to register. You will receive fewer telemarketing calls within three months of registering your number. It will stay in the registry for five years or until it is disconnected or you take it off the registry. After five years, you will be able to renew your registration.

Mail

The DMA Mail Preference Service lets you opt out of receiving direct mail marketing from many national companies for five years. When you register with this service, your name will be put on a “delete” file and made available to direct-mail marketers. However, your registration will not stop mailings from organizations that are not registered with the DMA’s Mail Preference Service. To register with DMA, send your letter to:

DMAchoice
Mail Preference Service
PO Box 643
Carmel, NY 10512

Or register online at www.dmachoice.org.

Email

The DMA also has an EMail Preference Service to help you reduce unsolicited commercial emails. To “opt-out” of receiving unsolicited commercial email, use DMA’s online form at www.dmachoice.org. Your online request will be effective for one year.

For More Information

The FTC works to prevent fraudulent, deceptive and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop and avoid them. To file a complaint or get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. Watch a video, How to File a Complaint, at ftc.gov/video to learn more. The FTC enters consumer complaints into the Consumer Sentinel Network, a secure online database and investigative tool used by hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad

Will be waiting for a option notices.....
EDIT found this on the site.
Direct from the FAQ on the site which means they are already in breech of the law as of January 1st
Quote
1. What is the BitForce SC?
2. Hey, what the heck? Why'd you come out with this after I just bought a bunch of Singles. I'm going to be left behind!
3. Why should I buy a Mini Rig or Single if the BitForce SC is coming out?
4. When will the BitForce SC be available, and how fast are they?
Our ASIC based products ranging from 4.5 GH/s to 1,500 GH/s are currently scheduled for availability in November, 2012.
5. Can these devices be used for anything else like password cracking?

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January 09, 2013, 02:45:56 PM
 #1610

CES interview with Josh from Butterfly Labs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZUPniBo5UQ

Pay attention to the micro expression before saying that "shipping" products, looks down and pauses ...
BR0KK
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January 09, 2013, 02:51:00 PM
 #1611

Quote
US consumer complaints https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en
Then go to your state Attorney General and File a compliant.

Note: If you do this and say something about expect the BFL kool aid crew to troll you and your ignore button to be the color of mine.

I Called most of this crap months ago, They are now Really close to having to comply with this

I personally can't do that cause:
1. I didn't order (yes I'm a troll)
2. I'm not us citizen (German)


Oh sry my English is rusty so I don't (seriously I'm German ....:d) understand what you try to imply with the ignore button?


BR0KK
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January 09, 2013, 02:54:03 PM
 #1612

CES interview with Josh from Butterfly Labs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZUPniBo5UQ

Pay attention to the micro expression before saying that "shipping" products, looks down and pauses ...

I had that feeling to ..... Smiley

But he has a hard job..money must be good too.. Couldn't imagine to go to an official Show without anything and all that crappy shady preorder backlog :/
 

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January 09, 2013, 03:37:17 PM
 #1613

So they show up at CES without a single working device. Not even a Jalapeno -> not even one working ASIC chip.

Um, you never produce "one" ASIC chip. If they had one, they would have thousands, and they would have already shipped.


You never do 50 wafers with a design where you actually don't know if it's working or not. If the chips are borked you'd lose some 100K USD!


hihi, you mean BFL possibly not produce a test wafer of it's ASIC design??

Where did I say that?

I simply said you don't do a full batch run with an unverified design.

I strongly assume BFL has done a test run. Or two. Or three. The fact that they still can't show a working product, or prototype, is kind of a worry ...

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January 09, 2013, 05:05:02 PM
 #1614

This means they never had a working prototype. Never. Not even today. Their power estimates, hashrate, etc. are in no way verified. They don't even know for sure if their chips are working at all. It's all based on simulation.

They claimed to have sent something to the FCC for certification, so that must have been their only working prototype. Or else they lied about the FCC. Who knows?

Buy & Hold
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January 09, 2013, 05:10:20 PM
 #1615

They claimed to have sent something to the FCC for certification
...
Or else they lied about the FCC.
Which is more plausible?

After all, this company does have a reputation to maintain.
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January 09, 2013, 05:16:46 PM
 #1616

This means they never had a working prototype. Never. Not even today. Their power estimates, hashrate, etc. are in no way verified. They don't even know for sure if their chips are working at all. It's all based on simulation.

They claimed to have sent something to the FCC for certification, so that must have been their only working prototype. Or else they lied about the FCC. Who knows?

They don't have a prototype. The world would see it at CES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZUPniBo5UQ
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January 09, 2013, 05:21:50 PM
 #1617

also known as Nexus7 in a BoxTM
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January 09, 2013, 05:24:06 PM
 #1618

They claimed to have sent something to the FCC for certification
...
Or else they lied about the FCC.
Which is more plausible?

After all, this company does have a reputation to maintain.

I wonder if they do.  From my topical scanning of things, it seems that BFL found a stockpile of out-of-production FPGAs for their FPGA product line and screwed them together in some manner to get them out the door.  When that source dries up, they would not have very much to maintain.  They were almost perfectly positioned for a 'long con' in the ASIC scam-space, and my suspicion that that is what they did grows by the day.


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January 09, 2013, 05:25:39 PM
 #1619

They claimed to have sent something to the FCC for certification
...
Or else they lied about the FCC.
Which is more plausible?

After all, this company does have a reputation to maintain.

I wonder if they do.  From my topical scanning of things, it seems that BFL found a stockpile of out-of-production FPGAs for their FPGA product line and screwed them together in some manner to get them out the door.  When that source dries up, they would not have very much to maintain.  They were almost perfectly positioned for a 'long con' in the ASIC scam-space, and my suspicion that that is what they did grows by the day.


Willing to bet on it?
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January 09, 2013, 05:33:18 PM
 #1620

Or else they lied about the FCC. Who knows?

they lied?

oh no, that never happens.

/s






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