[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[niko]

If the engineers are in on it, their professional career is dead, so the scam would need to support them for the rest of their life.

Can you name three BFL engineers?

Let me guess, you're thinking "if a random forum poster can't name three engineers, their careers are 100% safe if they're all involved in a scam and they know this".

He's probably thinking that if BFL are running a scam then they don't need to hire engineers with reputations that aren't worth losing for a big scam, or even any engineers at all.

If you could name three BFL engineers with reputations so solid that they would have a financial disincentive to take a share in a big scam rather than continue lucrative careers then it would definitely give them a lot more legitimacy.

The only employees I am aware of are the convicted fraudster CEO and Josh, who is so extremely unprofessional it is beyond belief.

Three people on LinkedIn have Butterfly Labs on their profiles. None of them are engineers.

Something like that, yes.  I have never, anywhere, claimed to consider BFL a scam; since September last year, however, I have on several occasions done service to the community by pointing out that BFL seem to be a bunch of mostly incompetent and dishonest folks - at least those with public presence (Josh, Sonny, and "chips were not flawed" Nasser).

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[ab8989]

I see a lot of people trying to convince themselves that things are legit by inventing ONE scenario of possible scam or ONE typical sign of a scam and because this is not like the ONE then it must be legit. And of course there are only two extreme cases a 100% legit or 100% scam. nothing inbetween.

The company structure is pretty suitable for a scam. A family business, where several members of one family is in it together. It is pretty logical to think that they all think pretty much alike. And then in addition take one or two non-family people in it. It is also pretty easy to vet these couple of people so that they are longtime friends so that you know they are on the same page how things are going to unfold. There is absolutely no reason to let every employee know about the script the company ends up doing in the end.

It is also quite possible that things can be run as a semi-scam and I would think this is quite common way of thinking in thousands of small business startups. The thinking goes, lets try it for a while, it either succeeds in which case I and everybody else ends up happy, or the other alternative is that there are insurmountable problems found during the operation in which case the company needs to fold, but I will still take care of myself generously.

I believe this is not that far off in here. There are three major possibilities.
A) Everything works out okay, we ship devices and everybody is happy.
B) The first prototype ASIC turns up not working, the businesscase for the respin does not look good, so lets bleed the company dry of any money and fold it and everything looks like a legal try that ended up pearshaped with the few of us making millions.
C) If there are too much refunds to cause problems too early, then we can fold the company in midway, but since this might end up looking messy, then lets try to avoid this and go for plan B if at all possible.

For the record I have the belief that there is an ASIC in the pipeline at BFL.
What happens if there is a problem found from the first iteration of the ASIC is anybodys guess. Maybe only people who carry the name Vleisides and a select few of others know that at this moment. I don't belive Josh is in on the secret of that.

[nathanrees19]

What happens if there is a problem found from the first iteration of the ASIC is anybodys guess.

Well, there are reasons to believe that this already happened...they're still better off financially if they delay again, because they can expect a fresh wave of orders when people eventually see that the devices actually work.

[ab8989]

they're still better off financially if they delay again, because they can expect a fresh wave of orders when people eventually see that the devices actually work.

Lets imagine a couple of lame-ass delays how dog ate their homework and then in march when they finally have a board that can be tested find out that is does not and they do need to delay things to may for a second attempt with no guarantee it is not going to be july with the 3rd. Do they get a fresh wave of orders? I dunno. The preorder customers seem to be so silly bunch of people that absolutely nothing is going to surprise me anymore.

[nathanrees19]

Do they get a fresh wave of orders? I dunno.

I would imagine that any company that ships (and has well-known forum members posting that the device works) is going to get orders no matter how long it took them to get to that stage. Well, assuming the product is still competitive.

[YipYip]

So, you all saw this right?

I have seen it already a month ago, 2 months ago, 3 months ago, 4 months ago... How many times should I watch this movies again and again?

Tis certainly entirely up to you.  Get a refund if you're tired of it.

Do u work for BFL ?

Nope.  Though to be fair, they did pay me to advertise my signature space a while back (along with many others).

I just like to defend against logical fallacies.  You know, the whole "Someone is WRONG on the internet!" xkcd thing?  Yeah, that's me.  

Working for BFl was a bit over the top.....we all make mistakes

"Would have run by now" thats the only thing that is really shaky in  my book

We all have our crosses to bear (Catholic) or Allahu Akba to my muslim friends & Hey "i brought a goat" for my pagan brothers  

I just can't understand why BFL would still be around (along with all it's 25 paid employees) if they were scammers.  What would they be trying to accomplish right now?  They are losing money that they could have run with every day, both through issuance of refunds and through payment of rent/employees/etc, and Josh in particular is spending a great deal of time creating elaborate stories and specific details that they couldn't release earlier not.  If they were scammers, why didn't they make up these stories much earlier on?  Why not give out these details from day one?  Or at the very least, months ago?  I just see so many things that point to them not being scammers, I really can't see it as a serious possibility.

Another person mentioned because of the bASIC SCAM they really needed to settle the market

Hey presto one detailed long explanation..

Would they gone to this great length without bASIC meltdown hmmm..maybe maybe not

Everything is about managing confidence whether they are real or not...ok i believe they are trying to do what they say

but from a technical standpoint what they have put out to the public so far is a load of malarky....so i am calling schnannygins

If there is more in the background there is absolutely no reason (all the business secrets is balony) why not to release more...it stands from a PR perspective to go gang busters with graphs, pictures, test results (within reason)...and here is our working proto ...how many pre sales would they have if all of this was in place ...take x * 300%

Trust is earned not given

Hey if they come through i will re-instate my order i cancelled 3 days ago

[YipYip]

I just can't understand why BFL would still be around (along with all it's 25 paid employees) if they were scammers.  What would they be trying to accomplish right now?  They are losing money that they could have run with every day, both through issuance of refunds and through payment of rent/employees/etc, and Josh in particular is spending a great deal of time creating elaborate stories and specific details that they couldn't release earlier not.  If they were scammers, why didn't they make up these stories much earlier on?  Why not give out these details from day one?  Or at the very least, months ago?  I just see so many things that point to them not being scammers, I really can't see it as a serious possibility.

Well, if it is a scam, that's exactly what they want you to think...

Agreed

[YipYip]

they're still better off financially if they delay again, because they can expect a fresh wave of orders when people eventually see that the devices actually work.

Lets imagine a couple of lame-ass delays how dog ate their homework and then in march when they finally have a board that can be tested find out that is does not and they do need to delay things to may for a second attempt with no guarantee it is not going to be july with the 3rd. Do they get a fresh wave of orders? I dunno. The preorder customers seem to be so silly bunch of people that absolutely nothing is going to surprise me anymore.

+1

There is definitely that smell in the air

After Ship latest January in late November..I am out to watch as a rational human I wont accept any more rubbish

It does remind me of the Nigerian money scams where the people are so indebited (i.e already sent 1000's) that they have to believe its real otherwise there whole world crashes down that they keep sending more money as a reaffirmation that it is real..

I.E the more i send the more reasons to believe it is real..

Good Luck with that...lol

[DobZombie]

Does anyone who doesn't have any skin in the game still believe BFL is for real?

It seems to me that the only people who believe BFL isn't some kind of scam are those with pre-orders, the same way that only those with large investments in BCS&T believed that Pirateat40 was for real towards the end.

BFL adherents, when will you allow yourselves to consider the fact that this is a scam. When the February deadline is missed? Or are you such chumps that you will allow a convicted fraudster to lead you through yet another hoop?

I see this as one of my investments.  If it pans out, it'll pay off.  If it doesn't, I'll move on to my next venture.

Anyone who invests money they can't afford to lose, should just put it in a savings account.

[kano]

...
Another person mentioned because of the bASIC SCAM they really needed to settle the market

Hey presto one detailed long explanation..

Would they gone to this great length without bASIC meltdown hmmm..maybe maybe not

Everything is about managing confidence whether they are real or not...ok i believe they are trying to do what they say

but from a technical standpoint what they have put out to the public so far is a load of malarky....so i am calling schnannygins

If there is more in the background there is absolutely no reason (all the business secrets is balony) why not to release more...it stands from a PR perspective to go gang busters with graphs, pictures, test results (within reason)...and here is our working proto ...how many pre sales would they have if all of this was in place ...take x * 300%

Trust is earned not given

Hey if they come through i will re-instate my order i cancelled 3 days ago

In the bitcoin world, trust is often simply given, not earned. I'm not completely sure why.
But obviously, hoping to be first with the devices, to hash at low difficulty, probably plays a big part in it.

My issues with BFL back when they made the FPGA Single, were it failed on Power, Performance and Delivery.
Delivery was, however, the biggest issue IMO due to the probable reasons.

Again this time they have failed on Delivery (who know about Power and Performance - we'll find out when it is released)
As I suspected with the BFL FPGA, I will also suspect with the BFL ASIC, I suspect it will be released eventually.
I'll certainly be surprised if it did turn out to be a scam in the general sense of the word.

When will they Deliver? I've still no idea. I have no firm date going to the USA or a plane ticket supplied by BFL yet.
Once I have those 2 things I'll be pretty sure of the Delivery date also.

However, again, with all 3 remaining companies, there certainly seems to be things that each could be showing, that they still haven't
(I don't bother to include Deepbit coz I've no idea what they are doing)

[lucif]

In the bitcoin world, trust is often simply given, not earned.

Hehe... What a scam paradyse...

[becoin]

Anyone who invests money they can't afford to lose, should just put it in a savings account.

But why BFL keep saying you are not investor, you're just a customer? Since when customers losing their money is okay? Did FTC say that? Where?

[greyhawk]

Have you videotaped your discussion with a lawyer yet?

[becoin]

Have you videotaped your discussion with a lawyer yet?

I've done many things. Take a pack of popcorn and take a seat. Be patient!

[greyhawk]

Have you videotaped your discussion with a lawyer yet?

I've done many things. Take a pack of popcorn and take a seat. Be patient!

The tension is worse than waiting for a BFL "produced" ASIC.

[DobZombie]

Quite a few months ago, I started down the path of creating a custom ASIC with another member of this forum.  We spoke with a number of companies that do structured ASIC designs but ultimately decided to go with a full custom ASIC design since it seemed like it would required to be competitive with the numbers being promised by the competition.  Ultimately, we entered into discussions with a company in Shanghai that does ASIC design with the intent of having them do the entire ASIC design for us.  Like BFL, we already had a working HDL design that we had verified on FPGA hardware.  Ultimately we chose not to move forward with the venture for business reasons, but it looks like BFL is on a similar path to what we were on.

Based on what I've been reading, it seems that BFL does not have in-house ASIC engineering experience (neither did we), but rather they have opted to farm out their design to a company experienced in these matters (a very positive thing IMO).  Silicon Valley probably has the highest concentration of ASIC design houses in the US, so it is encouraging to read that Josh is going there next week to meet with their ASIC design team.  Using an experienced ASIC design team in combination with a straightforward logic-only design like SHA256 and a conservative 65nm process is a good formula for minimizing risk and the number of respins.

I'm out of the mining business at the moment, but if I wanted to get back in now, I'd probably choose BFL based on the information currently available.

I have no affiliation with BFL or any of it's employees.

--
Jason

You are full of shit Jason.

What a clever and witty retort sir! Your grasp of the English language is elegant and substantial!

[nathanrees19]

What a clever and witty retort sir! Your grasp of the English language is elegant and substantial!

Well, at least it was straight to the point...

[ElectricMucus]

I would suggest you do better, if you really think that post deserves another response than mine give it a try.

[BR0KK]

2. How do I pocket the BTC if I get a refund of the same amount in BTC what I've originally paid?

You're a bit special aren't you?

I guess everybody that bought bitcoins couple of months ago at a cheaper price is a bit special. Those "greedy bastards' can now sell their bitcoins and make a profit. Oh, wait... What did you say?... They have to pay BFL in bitcoins and get a refund to make such a profit?! Umm... are you sure?!... How including BFL payment=refund in the equation will help me make additional profit?

That's speculation and done in other markets as well....  Stop whining ...

[nathanrees19]

I would suggest you do better, if you really think that post deserves another response than mine give it a try.

Okay.