[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[nathanrees19]

Quite a few months ago, I started down the path of creating a custom ASIC with another member of this forum.  We spoke with a number of companies that do structured ASIC designs but ultimately decided to go with a full custom ASIC design since it seemed like it would required to be competitive with the numbers being promised by the competition.  Ultimately, we entered into discussions with a company in Shanghai that does ASIC design with the intent of having them do the entire ASIC design for us.  Like BFL, we already had a working HDL design that we had verified on FPGA hardware.  Ultimately we chose not to move forward with the venture for business reasons, but it looks like BFL is on a similar path to what we were on.

Based on what I've been reading, it seems that BFL does not have in-house ASIC engineering experience (neither did we), but rather they have opted to farm out their design to a company experienced in these matters (a very positive thing IMO).  Silicon Valley probably has the highest concentration of ASIC design houses in the US, so it is encouraging to read that Josh is going there next week to meet with their ASIC design team.  Using an experienced ASIC design team in combination with a straightforward logic-only design like SHA256 and a conservative 65nm process is a good formula for minimizing risk and the number of respins.

I'm out of the mining business at the moment, but if I wanted to get back in now, I'd probably choose BFL based on the information currently available.

I have no affiliation with BFL or any of it's employees.

--
Jason

Agreed.

[1714769971]

1714769971

[greyhawk]

Quite a few months ago, I started down the path of creating a custom ASIC with another member of this forum.  We spoke with a number of companies that do structured ASIC designs but ultimately decided to go with a full custom ASIC design since it seemed like it would required to be competitive with the numbers being promised by the competition.  Ultimately, we entered into discussions with a company in Shanghai that does ASIC design with the intent of having them do the entire ASIC design for us.  Like BFL, we already had a working HDL design that we had verified on FPGA hardware.  Ultimately we chose not to move forward with the venture for business reasons, but it looks like BFL is on a similar path to what we were on.

Based on what I've been reading, it seems that BFL does not have in-house ASIC engineering experience (neither did we), but rather they have opted to farm out their design to a company experienced in these matters (a very positive thing IMO).  Silicon Valley probably has the highest concentration of ASIC design houses in the US, so it is encouraging to read that Josh is going there next week to meet with their ASIC design team.  Using an experienced ASIC design team in combination with a straightforward logic-only design like SHA256 and a conservative 65nm process is a good formula for minimizing risk and the number of respins.

I'm out of the mining business at the moment, but if I wanted to get back in now, I'd probably choose BFL based on the information currently available.

I have no affiliation with BFL or any of it's employees.

--
Jason

Agreed.

What a great and positive response sir. Your grasp of the English language is both elegant and substantial!

[nathanrees19]

Quite a few months ago, I started down the path of creating a custom ASIC with another member of this forum.  We spoke with a number of companies that do structured ASIC designs but ultimately decided to go with a full custom ASIC design since it seemed like it would required to be competitive with the numbers being promised by the competition.  Ultimately, we entered into discussions with a company in Shanghai that does ASIC design with the intent of having them do the entire ASIC design for us.  Like BFL, we already had a working HDL design that we had verified on FPGA hardware.  Ultimately we chose not to move forward with the venture for business reasons, but it looks like BFL is on a similar path to what we were on.

Based on what I've been reading, it seems that BFL does not have in-house ASIC engineering experience (neither did we), but rather they have opted to farm out their design to a company experienced in these matters (a very positive thing IMO).  Silicon Valley probably has the highest concentration of ASIC design houses in the US, so it is encouraging to read that Josh is going there next week to meet with their ASIC design team.  Using an experienced ASIC design team in combination with a straightforward logic-only design like SHA256 and a conservative 65nm process is a good formula for minimizing risk and the number of respins.

I'm out of the mining business at the moment, but if I wanted to get back in now, I'd probably choose BFL based on the information currently available.

I have no affiliation with BFL or any of it's employees.

--
Jason

Agreed.

What a great and positive response sir. Your grasp of the English language is both elegant and substantial!

I aim to please BFL

[mobodick]

Too bad the bet is a scam in itself.

FYI: I just attempted to create ASICs
I failed.

CONCENTRATE!

[Korbman]

People seem to consistently forget that in order to pull off a scam of this magnitude, they'd need to support of all participating members...managers, execs, designers, engineers, etc.

This.

If the engineers aren't in on it, then they would have done everything they can to produce working ASICs. If they can produce working ASICs, why would they (BFL higher ups) bother with a scam?

If the engineers are in on it, their professional career is dead, so the scam would need to support them for the rest of their life. I somehow don't think they have enough in pre orders for that.

[...]

Madoff had 400+ professionals working away thinking & doing what they do..stop & think that this can not be applied to BFL because an engineer did some work....yeah

I find it a bit odd that you're comparing a financial company to a technical one. Not to mention out of both these companies, only one of them is selling a product...

Anyway..
Am I one of a handful of people that actually understand long term consequences of such an action by BFL? I keep reading it over and over and over again throughout this thread.."oh BFL is creating an elaborate scam, they haven't created a product and they're just trolling for money".

The problem here is that Butterfly Labs is an established company here in the States...meaning they're abiding by all laws and regulations (presumably of course..given none of us work there we cannot say for 100% certain). The amount of negative press they would receive if they were to scam us would be phenomenal. An investigation (and probably lawsuit) would ensue, and anyone clearly associated with the scam would be tried and sentenced.

We all get our money back, and they all go to jail. Jeez, what was so hard about all that...

[niko]

Again, can anyone name three BFL engineers?

Somewhat relevant attempt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118863.0

[creativex]

We all get our money back, and they all go to jail. Jeez, what was so hard about all that...

Victims get their money back and crooks go to jail? Where is this again? Can't be the US cuz they had Enron, Solyndra, S&L, LTCM, MF Global, etc...

Those victims weren't made whole, the lawyers did well as I understand it. Keeting got a few consecutive 99 year sentences, but ruined the lives of thousands of seniors. Perhaps we should ask Vleisides' lottery scam victims if they got their money back?

Victims get Corzined and those with slick lawyers/connections rarely see the inside of jail cells, they get slaps on the wrist and told to behave. You go to jail for blue collar crimes in the States, white collar criminals generally walk.

[bitmar]

The problem here is that Butterfly Labs is an established company here in the States...meaning they're abiding by all laws and regulations (presumably of course..given none of us work there we cannot say for 100% certain). The amount of negative press they would receive if they were to scam us would be phenomenal. An investigation (and probably lawsuit) would ensue, and anyone clearly associated with the scam would be tried and sentenced.

We all get our money back, and they all go to jail. Jeez, what was so hard about all that...

Chris Vleisides - Involved in the scam - 25 million $. Nobody get money back. Chris Vleisides did not go to jail.
United States laws and regulations

All fines are waived as it is found that the defendant does not have the ability to pay a fine.

Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 3663A(c)(3), restitution is not ordered because (1) the number of identifiable victims is so large as to make restitution impracticable [3663A(c)(3)(A)]; and

(2) determining complex issues of fact related to the cause or amount of the victim's losses would complicate or prolong the sentencing process to a degree that the need to provide restitution to any victim is outweighed by the burden on the sentencing process [3663A(c)(3)(B)].

SPECIAL ASSESSMENT: It is further ordered defendant shall pay to the United States a special assessment fee of $100, which is due immediately to the Clerk of the Court.

 

[BR0KK]

So he  does this mail fraud thing and gets away with paing 100$ fee to the court?

He defrauded ~25.000.000 USD and is not able to be sentenced to pay a fine higher than 100$
? Is the law there that stupid!?

If law is like that I'm heading to the is now ... Time to do some serious business: http://youtu.be/niaMCTPDNeo

[creativex]

He defrauded ~25.000.000 USD and is not able to be sentenced to pay a fine higher than 100$
? Is the law there that stupid!?

Stupid isn't the word. Corrupt and dysfunctional are better descriptions of the US legal system.

[Korbman]

Again, can anyone name three BFL engineers?

Nope, since none of us work there. There's a manufacturing company an hour away from me, NSA Industries LLC, that's one of my clients. Can you name two of the engineers that work there?

Victims get their money back and crooks go to jail? Where is this again? Can't be the US cuz they had Enron, Solyndra, S&L, LTCM, MF Global, etc...

Those victims weren't made whole, the lawyers did well as I understand it. Keeting got a few consecutive 99 year sentences, but ruined the lives of thousands of seniors. Perhaps we should ask Vleisides' lottery scam victims if they got their money back?

Victims get Corzined and those with slick lawyers/connections rarely see the inside of jail cells, they get slaps on the wrist and told to behave. You go to jail for blue collar crimes in the States, white collar criminals generally walk.

Ah, so there have only been five company scams to have ever gone on in existence, right?  Seems to me you're just remarking on the most notable examples of where not enough evidence was present to put blame on any one person. The problem here is that none of your examples apply in this circumstance. The reality is that there are dozens of scams out there that are stopped and investigated, often with outcomes in favor of the victim(s). The most recent one that comes to mind for me is Finmaestros, LLC.

Oh, and as for..

Perhaps we should ask Vleisides' lottery scam victims if they got their money back?

Getting their money back wasn't an option. I'll give you a minute to think about why (*hint* it has to do with the number of people scammed).


On a side note, I'm thoroughly impressed by the sheer quantity of FUD in this thread.

[creativex]

Again, can anyone name three BFL engineers?

Nope, since none of us work there. There's a manufacturing company an hour away from me, NSA Industries LLC, that's one of my clients. Can you name two of the engineers that work there?

Victims get their money back and crooks go to jail? Where is this again? Can't be the US cuz they had Enron, Solyndra, S&L, LTCM, MF Global, etc...

Those victims weren't made whole, the lawyers did well as I understand it. Keeting got a few consecutive 99 year sentences, but ruined the lives of thousands of seniors. Perhaps we should ask Vleisides' lottery scam victims if they got their money back?

Victims get Corzined and those with slick lawyers/connections rarely see the inside of jail cells, they get slaps on the wrist and told to behave. You go to jail for blue collar crimes in the States, white collar criminals generally walk.

Ah, so there have only been five company scams to have ever gone on in existence, right?  Seems to me you're just remarking on the most notable examples of where not enough evidence was present to put blame on any one person. The problem here is that none of your examples apply in this circumstance. The reality is that there are dozens of scams out there that are stopped and investigated, often with outcomes in favor of the victim(s). The most recent one that comes to mind for me is Finmaestros, LLC.

Oh, and as for..

Perhaps we should ask Vleisides' lottery scam victims if they got their money back?

Getting their money back wasn't an option. I'll give you a minute to think about why (*hint* it has to do with the number of people scammed).


On a side note, I'm thoroughly impressed by the sheer quantity of FUD in this thread.

So your revised statement is that sometimes victims get some of their money back? ...provided there aren't too many victims.

As an aside, I'm thoroughly impressed by the sheer number of BFL investors that defend BFL's FUD.

[greyhawk]

Nope, since none of us work there. There's a manufacturing company an hour away from me, NSA Industries LLC, that's one of my clients. Can you name two of the engineers that work there?

Adam LaClair
Brian Dennis

See? That wasn't so hard.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Nope, since none of us work there. There's a manufacturing company an hour away from me, NSA Industries LLC, that's one of my clients. Can you name two of the engineers that work there?

Adam LaClair
Brian Dennis

See? That wasn't so hard.

That was too easy. Name one redhead. Mongol like redheads.

[creativex]

Nope, since none of us work there. There's a manufacturing company an hour away from me, NSA Industries LLC, that's one of my clients. Can you name two of the engineers that work there?

Adam LaClair
Brian Dennis

See? That wasn't so hard.

That was too easy. Name one redhead. Mongol like redheads.

Marilu Henner! She engineered a lot of high rises back in the day.

[DobZombie]

...I shoot I score ...the crowd goes wild as we win the pennant  

but i live in Australia (did i mention that)

You're full of shit.

I've never heard an Aussie mutter the phrase "we win the pennant" EVER.

You're a fucking liar.

[Syke]

Again, can anyone name three BFL engineers?

Nope, since none of us work there. There's a manufacturing company an hour away from me, NSA Industries LLC, that's one of my clients. Can you name two of the engineers that work there?

Great example. Check out their web page some time.

http://www.nsaindustries.com/about-nsa/management-team/

Notice how the management team isn't trying to hide their identities? Show me BFL's management team.

[greyhawk]

That was too easy. Name one redhead. Mongol like redheads.

Genghis Khan.

[DobZombie]

Quite a few months ago, I started down the path of creating a custom ASIC with another member of this forum.  We spoke with a number of companies that do structured ASIC designs but ultimately decided to go with a full custom ASIC design since it seemed like it would required to be competitive with the numbers being promised by the competition.  Ultimately, we entered into discussions with a company in Shanghai that does ASIC design with the intent of having them do the entire ASIC design for us.  Like BFL, we already had a working HDL design that we had verified on FPGA hardware.  Ultimately we chose not to move forward with the venture for business reasons, but it looks like BFL is on a similar path to what we were on.

Based on what I've been reading, it seems that BFL does not have in-house ASIC engineering experience (neither did we), but rather they have opted to farm out their design to a company experienced in these matters (a very positive thing IMO).  Silicon Valley probably has the highest concentration of ASIC design houses in the US, so it is encouraging to read that Josh is going there next week to meet with their ASIC design team.  Using an experienced ASIC design team in combination with a straightforward logic-only design like SHA256 and a conservative 65nm process is a good formula for minimizing risk and the number of respins.

I'm out of the mining business at the moment, but if I wanted to get back in now, I'd probably choose BFL based on the information currently available.

I have no affiliation with BFL or any of it's employees.

--
Jason

Agreed.

What a great and positive response sir. Your grasp of the English language is both elegant and substantial!

+1

[Korbman]

Nope, since none of us work there. There's a manufacturing company an hour away from me, NSA Industries LLC, that's one of my clients. Can you name two of the engineers that work there?

Adam LaClair
Brian Dennis

No to both haha. Good try though

Great example. Check out their web page some time.

http://www.nsaindustries.com/about-nsa/management-team/

Notice how the management team isn't trying to hide their identities? Show me BFL's management team.

I know, it was a pretty awesome example ..I like how you deferred away from engineers and flipped over to management since it was readily available on NSA's website. I also seem to recall a post somewhere in this thread with a link to BFL's structure, noting Nasser, Sonny, Josh, Chris, and a few others.

Ah, the joys of selecting evidence to suit our points of view