r0ach's Cryptomarkets Watch & Scamcoin Observer

[iamnotback]

Don't you have a math error?

0.0005 x 20,000 = 10 BTC not 100 BTC

That doesn't diminish your point about the large volume perhaps being wash trades of insiders selling to themselves to pump up the price and volume.

Yea, you're right.  I accidentally used 0.5% instead of 0.05%.  They aren't paying astronomical fees, but you can clearly tell it's wash traded.

I am not disagreeing with the thesis that ETH is a manipulated market of wash trades and margined ETH used to leverage up, akin to printing money out of thin air.

It is ridiculous that the resources of our ecosystem are being drained by our myopia.

I am not going to go on a crusade of talk in BCT.

I think we need to try to do something in terms of investing our money in honest s/w development.

Also it does appear that some actual development is being done in the Ethereum ecosystem, so if we don't compete with what they are offering then the speculators are just going to think we are jealous sour grapes.

Or just stick with BTC and accept the fate of Blockstream + China, which in my opinion in another way we are being used for the objectives of those who control us.

It is depressing. But I want to fight back by coding.

How else to fight back?

(and don't anyone think I am going to be a fucking volunteer. I do my work for a profit. I don't believe in Communism. Any way, I am probably risking my life, so that should be sufficient volunteerism)

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[Hueristic]

I am not disagreeing with the thesis that ETH is a manipulated market of wash trades and margined ETH used to leverage up, akin to printing money out of thin air.

It is ridiculous that the resources of our ecosystem are being drained by our myopia.

Unfortunately the largest effort is being put forth for a quick short sighted cash grab in the alt scene with very few exceptions. But that is true capitalism now isn't it.

Don't forget there are degrees in between pure capitalism and communism. And if you look at communism at the root it is a great idea, it is just one that is impossible for humanity to properly adhere to as it boils down to the fact there will always we at least one that will not pull their weight which causes a cascading effect that erodes the entire system. I am of the opinion that a form of government must be derived globally that is based on an agreement of what human rights are and that everyone is entitled to those. Once that can be determined the algorithm for the rest can be attained.

I am not going to go on a crusade of talk in BCT.

I think we need to try to do something in terms of investing our money in honest s/w development.

I don't believe there is anyone that will disagree with this the main issue is those that have this view are eclipsed by the huge thefts that rob the true visionary projects of the resources they need to succeed.

Also it does appear that some actual development is being done in the Ethereum ecosystem, so if we don't compete with what they are offering then the speculators are just going to think we are jealous sour grapes.

There is no denying that the space has been made but whether ETH eco-system is desirable as a platform to develop in is highly debatable. I fear (I'm actually quite certain) that the entire ETH project is nothing more than vapor that will slowly dissipate all the resources that have been thrown at it.

Or just stick with BTC and accept the fate of Blockstream + China, which in my opinion in another way we are being used for the objectives of those who control us.

It is depressing. But I want to fight back by coding.

We already know that BTC has failed and the world as a whole just hasn't noticed yet. I feel your pain and am sure you will get back to coding your dream. The issue these days is how to get that critical mass of resources as ETH has done into projects that are not flawed at inception. The "investors" in the alt scene are truly mind boggling dumb and gullible to the point of incredulity. Not to mention their myopic view on nothing but the allure of a quick rich scheme that blinds them to all else including their own solvency.

How else to fight back?

(and don't anyone think I am going to be a fucking volunteer. I do my work for a profit. I don't believe in Communism)

I wish I knew the answer to this.

[iamnotback]

Also it does appear that some actual development is being done in the Ethereum ecosystem, so if we don't compete with what they are offering then the speculators are just going to think we are jealous sour grapes.

There is no denying that the space has been made but whether ETH eco-system is desirable as a platform to develop in is highly debatable. I fear (I'm actually quite certain) that the entire ETH project is nothing more than vapor that will slowly dissipate all the resources that have been thrown at it.

I am 80% leaning towards it will fail although I think Emin @hackingdistributed (Cornell)) et al are going to become more proactive now and these universities have a lot of research resources to throw at helping Ethereum become viable. So I think we actually need to compete with it head-on, to topple it.

If we stand back and let them breathe, they will come back at us again with a larger and more developed ecosystem. But a persmissioned block chain that is controlled by consensus and has blacklisting, etc. They are working now on stoppable contracts, etc.. MIT has proposed ChainAnchor for Bitcoin!! Research that 666 shit.

Or just stick with BTC and accept the fate of Blockstream + China, which in my opinion in another way we are being used for the objectives of those who control us.

It is depressing. But I want to fight back by coding.

We already know that BTC has failed and the world as a whole just hasn't noticed yet. I feel your pain and am sure you will get back to coding your dream. The issue these days is how to get that critical mass of resources as ETH has done into projects that are not flawed at inception. The "investors" in the alt scene are truly mind boggling dumb and gullible to the point of incredulity. Not to mention their myopic view on nothing but the allure of a quick rich scheme that blinds them to all else including their own solvency.

Problem is Bitcoin may not fail in terms of being scaled out. They may end up succeeding spreading it out to the masses (as essentially a centralized coin and Lightning Networks on corporate servers) and we will be enslaved by it with 666 id required, etc..

Coinbase has partnered with Paypal - Officially!

[r0ach]

I think we need to try to do something in terms of investing our money in honest s/w development.

Or just stick with BTC and accept the fate of Blockstream + China, which in my opinion in another way we are being used for the objectives of those who control us.

I try to be pragmatic and set reasonable expectations for what can become of things.  I'm aware governments can attempt to co-opt BTC in different manners by trying to regulate mining facilities and all that.  Whether that would actually work or not is highly debatable being a multi-continent thing +10,000 altcoins they have to play endless whack-a-mole with and lose eventually.  This is why there's no real reason for them to even try to attack BTC in that manner.

The point is, none of those worst case scenarios are even a deal breaker to me because they still would not be worse than the system we already have.  Bitcoin isn't usury, debt, fractional reserve based, or inflationary, so no matter what "they" do to the thing, you will probably be getting some type of more sound money out of the deal.  You try to say they will "claw it all back" with 90% taxes or whatever, but that's not an inherent Bitcoin problem, that's a too big of govt problem.

If every 1st world nation bands together to create a North Korean, gulag system where everyone who makes over $10,000 a year is taxed for 90% using the blockchain to prove how much wealth you have, at that point you would just cash out your now much more valuable BTC, buy some type of metal, real estate, 1 million cattle, whatever, then move to some random 3rd world country and live like a king like John McAfee.  You probably wouldn't even need to "cash out", you can just spend your BTC while sitting around in your new 3rd world country.

If Bitcoin accomplishes it's intended goal, you win.  If Bitcoin is somehow co-opted by a world government, you're now front running the government and still win with 10,000x more resources to attempt to accomplish whatever it is you wanted to do before.  Bitcoin never shipped with a label that says "100% guaranteed to prevent an authoritarian world government from forming that will kill everyone".

[iamnotback]

I think we need to try to do something in terms of investing our money in honest s/w development.

Or just stick with BTC and accept the fate of Blockstream + China, which in my opinion in another way we are being used for the objectives of those who control us.

I try to be pragmatic and set reasonable expectations for what can become of things.  I'm aware governments can attempt to co-opt BTC in different manners by trying to regulate mining facilities and all that.  Whether that would actually work or not is highly debatable being a multi-continent thing +10,000 altcoins they have to play endless whack-a-mole with and lose eventually.  This is why there's no real reason for them to even try to attack BTC in that manner.

Your conceptualization is factually incorrect w.r.t. Bitcoin. Please try to study these links:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14836040#msg14836040 (halving will increase centralized control)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14834374#msg14834374
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14817397#msg14817397 (prior specific rebuttal to r0ach)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14828552#msg14828552 (followup to r0ach)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14803606#msg14803606 (read all of sockpuppet1 posts down that page)
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/49a14r/how_the_heck_are_actual_bitcoin_users_who_want_a/d0taiqa?context=3 (controlling block size Blockstream+China necessary to maximize Fees)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14810338#msg14810338
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14816704#msg14816704 (rebuttal to r0ach's commodization of ASICs non-solution)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14835570#msg14835570 (followup to r0ach)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14828344#msg14828344 (rebuttal to r0ach's free electricity from heating our homes)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14817057#msg14817057
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg15145893#msg15145893


As for playing whack-a-mole with altcoins, they only need to control the popular block chain used by the masses (Bitcoin) and businesses (Ethereum). All the rest of the altcoins will die, because nobody wants to be developing for an ecosystem or accepting tokens from that which is not mainstream. Our window of opportunity to not be enslaved is slipping away, because people like you are willing to look the other way and think incorrectly about how the elite have always insidiously taken power while the masses were asleep at the wheel.

The point is, none of those worst case scenarios are even a deal breaker to me because they still would not be worse than the system we already have.  Bitcoin isn't usury, debt, fractional reserve based, or inflationary, so no matter what "they" do to the thing, you will probably be getting some type of more sound money out of the deal.  You try to say they will "claw it all back" with 90% taxes or whatever, but that's not an inherent Bitcoin problem, that's a too big of govt problem.

Not only can centralized control over the mining do everything a fiat currency did, but worse it is a digital public ledger that tracks everything and can even turn off you ability to transact (once they add MIT's ChainAnchor).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14787119#msg14787119 (Matonis disagrees with you)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg15137165#msg15137165
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14854273#msg14854273 (Bitcoin is a global politik)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg14844569#msg14844569
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465136.msg15126195#msg15126195

If every 1st world nation bands together to create a North Korean, gulag system where everyone who makes over $10,000 a year is taxed for 90% using the blockchain to prove how much wealth you have, at that point you would just cash out your now much more valuable BTC,

There won't be anything non-digital to cash out to. You will tracked and controlled.

There won't be any more physical cash. Physical gold as cash will be illegal. Trading your BTC directly for land without a digital record, will be illegal.

Terrorism. Can't be allowed. Those damn terrorists will be blamed. Everything must be tracked. That is why the elite are flooding Europe with Muslims, so they can create a chaos to usher in the 666 system.

If Bitcoin accomplishes it's intended goal, you win.  If Bitcoin is somehow co-opted by a world government, you're now front running the government and still win with 10,000x more resources to attempt to accomplish whatever it is you wanted to do before.  Bitcoin never shipped with a label that says "100% guaranteed to prevent an authoritarian world government from forming that will kill everyone".

r0ach it is sad that you'd prefer a happy delusion than the depressing reality we face. Because then maybe you would stop fucking around and get serious and fight. Come on man. Fight. Don't be a wimp.


Interesting I found this quote of Blockstream and Bitcoin core dev I had missed:

Explain to me why the hell it matters having a large portion of the hashing power in a geographical location.

It is much easier to drive up with tanks to commandeer geographically clustered hashpower.


But destroyed? "We are told to remember the idea, not the man, because a man can fail. He can be caught. He can be killed and forgotten. But four hundred years later an idea can still change the world. I've witnessed firsthand the power of ideas. I've seen people kill in the name of them; and die defending them."

[SolomonRising]

If Bitcoin accomplishes it's intended goal, you win.  If Bitcoin is somehow co-opted by a world government, you're now front running the government and still win with 10,000x more resources to attempt to accomplish whatever it is you wanted to do before.  Bitcoin never shipped with a label that says "100% guaranteed to prevent an authoritarian world government from forming that will kill everyone".

This is why Bitcoin is a near zero risk investment with an enormous profit potential.

[iamnotback]

If Bitcoin accomplishes it's intended goal, you win.  If Bitcoin is somehow co-opted by a world government, you're now front running the government and still win with 10,000x more resources to attempt to accomplish whatever it is you wanted to do before.  Bitcoin never shipped with a label that says "100% guaranteed to prevent an authoritarian world government from forming that will kill everyone".

This is why Bitcoin is a near zero risk investment with an enormous profit potential.

What use is profit if every transaction you can make requires a digital tax id. And the protocol has been modified (by the fact that majority control is held by mining farms who are necessarily beholden to government edicts) to withhold the necessary tax automatically. And it turns out that your 10,000X gains place you into the wealth tax bracket, which is taxed at 90%. And since you can't prove your coins weren't involved in various criminal activities at some point before you acquired them, they've been locked pending review by the world bank crimes against humanity division pending further review (which currently has a 3 year queue and growing).

Without a permissionless, decentralized block chain, you might as well just be depositing your money at Bear Stearns.

[Hueristic]

Or just stick with BTC and accept the fate of Blockstream + China, which in my opinion in another way we are being used for the objectives of those who control us.

It is depressing. But I want to fight back by coding.

We already know that BTC has failed and the world as a whole just hasn't noticed yet. I feel your pain and am sure you will get back to coding your dream. The issue these days is how to get that critical mass of resources as ETH has done into projects that are not flawed at inception. The "investors" in the alt scene are truly mind boggling dumb and gullible to the point of incredulity. Not to mention their myopic view on nothing but the allure of a quick rich scheme that blinds them to all else including their own solvency.

Problem is Bitcoin may not fail in terms of being scaled out. They may end up succeeding spreading it out to the masses (as essentially a centralized coin and Lightning Networks on corporate servers) and we will be enslaved by it with 666 id required, etc..

Coinbase has partnered with Paypal - Officially!

Yes, when I say failed I mean failed as in it's original purpose of freeing the masses from controlled centralization of any form. That is the only reason I became involved at all in Virtual currencies as I believe in the individuals right to freedom from oppression and one mainstay of that is obviously economic freedom. As I have said before I have had my life savings stolen multiple times (legally, not justly and with no recourse) and have no faith in the system we live under. I am getting older and no longer have the time to start over and save throughout my life as I have done in the past to create a economic cushion for my future. I expect to die poor but I hope to see future generations unchained from a system that is controlled and manipulated by lawyers and bankers to the benefit of the 1%.

[iamnotback]

It seems that a corrupted exchange is an essential ingredient for pumping a crypto currency to $billion nosebleed mcaps, so apparently not only is demand being created out-of-thin-air using margined coins the insiders deceptively obtained from the ICO by buying from themselves (taking out a BTC loan and paying it back after the ICO)...

...but likely also that some high volume exchange is also creating tokens literally out-of-thin-air and is another Mt.Gox or Cryptsy waiting to default when there is a run to withdraw.

A likely essential ingredient in BitCON's rise from $10 to $1200 was because Mt.Gox was creating coins out-of-thin-air and handling most of the BTC volume, so this provided more coins for everyone to leverage and create fake demand with.

So this huge pump in ETH likely means another high volume exchange will end up stealing all your coins again soon.

The way this criminal enterprise crypto-currency enterprise works is that the insiders create tokens out-of-thin-air on the exchanges, then when the ponzi scheme implodes, the "hackers" or owners of the exchange are blamed instead of blaming the real manipulators behind the curtain.

We apparently have criminal gangs in the crypto-currency ecosystem. The DAO attacker says the UGGovt + MIT/Cornell universities are complicit. Others say Goldman Sachs is in this. Probably also Russian criminals, etc..

That is likely why there is no enforcement from the SEC. Because the SEC is owned by the criminal gangs.

Nothing has changed! We have not defeated fiat. We have not defeated the same banksters bastards who are always enslaving us.

We're just fools.

[Hueristic]

In case you guys havn't seen this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O5fdMFKEC0

[smooth]

Nothing has changed! We have not defeated fiat. We have not defeated the same banksters bastards who are always enslaving us.

There is little reason to believe that simply changing the medium of exchange and little else will have some radical effect on behavior, whether positive or negative.

[Hueristic]

Nothing has changed! We have not defeated fiat. We have not defeated the same banksters bastards who are always enslaving us.

There is little reason to believe that simply changing the medium of exchange and little else will have some radical effect on behavior, whether positive or negative.

Correct, it is the control as well as the viewability that must be changed.

[iamnotback]

Nothing has changed! We have not defeated fiat. We have not defeated the same banksters bastards who are always enslaving us.

There is little reason to believe that simply changing the medium of exchange and little else will have some radical effect on behavior, whether positive or negative.

Correct, it is the control as well as the viewability that must be changed.

Privacy of block chain is not immutable without decentralized scaling.

[Spoetnik]

Unfortunately the largest effort is being put forth for a quick short sighted cash grab in the alt scene with very few exceptions. But that is true capitalism now isn't it.

capitalism failed miserably.
US housing derivatives + lack of reg's from Greenspan triggered a tsunami across the globe..
Countries collapsed and shitloads of people had their homes foreclosed on.. out on the street.

Worse the after math is at best we are suffering from nasty inflation and a sketchy financial scene.
Many analysts think we are in for an even bigger collapse at some point nor far off.

Greenspan kept insisting the "capitalists" would not let things get THAT bad and ruin the markets.

HE WAS WRONG !

..i have been warning you all for 3 years you are all doing the SAME EXACT thing in crypto.
then your all snickering about it like it's funny and doing it more.

capitalism ?
You say that like it's a precocious little "boys will be boys" cutesy type of thing.
No it's like saying hey i am a heartless soulless piece of shit hollow insecure fuck that would rape my own dog for a dollar.

Do your homework guys there is a not much different between the 2 situations.

..i love all those endless arguments i have had with idiots in crypto before. (hi Romes from Cryptsy IRC)  
(saying ohh it never affected me at all)
Really are you that dumb ?

Answer = YES  

[r0ach]

Bitcoin market analysis June 26 2016:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1496372.msg15375907#msg15375907

[Spoetnik]

@Hueristic
I did like your comment about Freedom earlier.
I get it.. i joined up thinking that *in part* as well.
But many of these ideals we had showing up did need more thought put into them..
For example..
When i showed up i was of course like 90% of people "Anti-Regulations"
This changed for me after seeing how it worked first hand.. and what would probably come later.

I also suspected that GOX was fudging the order books..
They HAD admitted to running a custom back end that was handle poorly by some staff.
Later we found out King Krapeles was responsible for his internal backroom meddling on his exchange.
..not his staff.
He had admitted in some commentary stuff saying that before.
He had made excuses before trying to pin his failed back end on transaction a malleability which was pure bullshit.
He DID admit people to creating a custom back end.. for his benefit.

[Hueristic]

@Hueristic
I did like your comment about Freedom earlier.
I get it.. i joined up thinking that *in part* as well.
But many of these ideals we had showing up did need more thought put into them..
For example..
When i showed up i was of course like 90% of people "Anti-Regulations"
This changed for me after seeing how it worked first hand.. and what would probably come later.

I also suspected that GOX was fudging the order books..
They HAD admitted to running a custom back end that was handle poorly by some staff.
Later we found out King Krapeles was responsible for his internal backroom meddling on his exchange.
..not his staff.
He had admitted in some commentary stuff saying that before.
He had made excuses before trying to pin his failed back end on transaction a malleability which was pure bullshit.
He DID admit people to creating a custom back end.. for his benefit.

Do not allow others to change your Ideals. It takes immense strength to stand when all others capitulate.

[r0ach]

You obviously need decentralized exchanges to deal with problems like centralized exchanges being able to trade on their own system and naked short coins down to 0.  Then the market would have to consider the DEX as the leading exchange price-wise instead of the margined casino centralized ones.

[iamnotback]

You obviously need decentralized exchanges to deal with problems like centralized exchanges being able to trade on their own system and naked short coins down to 0.  Then the market would have to consider the DEX as the leading exchange price-wise instead of the margined casino centralized ones.

tokeweed says no:

I do not exactly know what goes on behind the scenes when a coin/token gets listed but you'll know that a team behind a platform knows what their doing because the maintained volume for their coins is always high right from the beginning.  A prime example of this is Ethereum.

It would be naive to think that the market activity will just come without some kind of manipulation going on to jump start trading.

Wow! So manipulation or die in your opinion?

[iamnotback]

r0ach what do you think? I say tokeweed is correct:

Thanks for the links and discussion.  I still can not for the life of me wrap my head around the "volume" of alt coins traded recently.  With no transparency into these exchanges, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'll put dollars to doughnuts there is more then meets the eye.

It is obvious that the high volume are the insiders buying from themselves in order to control the market price.

The way this works is that if you flood the exchange with high bids and high asks, then the small volume of actually lower asks is insignificant and minor cost for the insider. For example let's say the insider is 99% of the volume (using Sybil identities on the exchange), then the 1% that wants to sell is an insignificant cost to the insider, because the manipulation of the price drives more speculator demand on the bid side than on the ask side.

So in this way, the insider is actually unloading tokens at higher and higher prices. This games goes on until the insiders have unloaded their tokens at nosebleed prices. Then it collapses.

In Ethereum's case, it was alleged by the Dao attacker that the insiders are using their tokens as margin to do margin trades to provide more upside price leverage manipulation. So first you use your tokens buying from yourself to pump up the price, then you use your ETH to short the ETH price, and start selling tokens rapidly to cause a crash in price. You cover your shorts, and repeat the process again driving the price up. But you don't crash the price too far, so as to keep the dream alive. Having very good marketing also helps.

This is why we often see a huge decline in the price after the initial ICO pump, as this enables the insiders to accumulate tokens very cheaply and then the upward price manipulation begins.

Note the insiders need to make sure they are the only large holders, so no one can compete with them and for example sell into their pump.

It seems if you don't do this manipulation, then your token will be scorned by speculators and your reputation as altcoin developers will be tarnished.

The developers if they are honest, will take their funding and continue to work hard. The market manipulators are going to come in and buy up any good coin and pump it. The only way to stop that would be for the developer (and/or the community) to hold the coins tight fisted, but then this creates a dead market such as Monero which has never seen more than 4X gain after the initial pump by rpietila.

So what can an honest developer do  He has no choice but to let the speculators have what they want. The important thing is the developer is funded and able to drive the ecosystem to success. If so, then the downside price crash will be limited or at least a great buying opportunity. Fundamental development (coding) and marketing matters.

But alas, DEX is going to be scorned because the manipulators can't operate there. Or can they? Speculators will go where the (manipulated) volume is.

Speculators learn to play the game.