A4 Dominator - Pre-Order Group Buy - 280mh, roughly 1000w, $1800 + shipping

[Longsnowsm]

Just a couple of states away from me.  I have already been in contact with the person receiving the jig so they are aware it is coming.

Update: I just looked at the way bill attached to the jig and Inno declared the value of the jig as $100.  So that is interesting. Not sure if that is the amount I should insure it for when I ship it 

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[dogjunior]

I believe the questions were asked above and i would be looking for an answer as well:

1)  does inno mine with the a4s or just sell them?
2) how many are you going to mass produce?

These are 2 key factors in my decision making on purchase or not purchase.  Thanks

Even if they answered your questions, would you believe them? Just look at the rise in hash rate and know that Inno is the cause of this.  They want more people to pay their high prices for the A4. LTC price is going up due to BTC. As soon as BTC price cools off, LTC will fall. No way A4's ROI in a year.  Given diff rises you will be lucky to ROI in two years.  If anyone wants to chime in and tell people when they got their A4 and how much they have made since then, this will provide a baseline. Thanks.

[Rabinovitch]

No way A4's ROI in a year.  Given diff rises you will be lucky to ROI in two years.

Here is my math for one unit (~140 MH/s) bought at Aliexpress and with my electricity price:

[dogjunior]

No way A4's ROI in a year.  Given diff rises you will be lucky to ROI in two years.

Here is my math for one unit (~140 MH/s) bought at Aliexpress and with my electricity price:

Not too bad. But diff going up by 10% in the next 3 days. Who knows what it will be in the next two months. If you double the diff to 140,000 and put LTC price at $3.00 USD then run your calculator, you will see that 2 year ROI.

[kurbeks]

If you mine other smaller Mofo coins like gamecredits with 0,04$ price electricity you gona break even faster.

[Longsnowsm]

However if you want to make it a little more realistic, adjust that hash rate down to something you will actually see pool side.  You will get nowhere near the advertised hash rate on average.  At least I don't.  That changes the picture quite a bit. 

BTW, nice power rate, most of us could only wish.   

[DebitMe]

However if you want to make it a little more realistic, adjust that hash rate down to something you will actually see pool side.  You will get nowhere near the advertised hash rate on average.  At least I don't.  That changes the picture quite a bit. 

BTW, nice power rate, most of us could only wish.   

Yea agreed, I get on average around 230-240 MH/s, so that needs to be factored into the payback.  In all, these are just too high priced for me to pull the trigger on one.

Although I would like Inno to come back to this thread and make a comment on the under performing hashrate of these units. I assume there is no planned compensation or anything they will do about them running 15 to 17% slower than advertised?

[excelerator]

No way A4's ROI in a year.  Given diff rises you will be lucky to ROI in two years.

Here is my math for one unit (~140 MH/s) bought at Aliexpress and with my electricity price:

Not too bad. But diff going up by 10% in the next 3 days. Who knows what it will be in the next two months. If you double the diff to 140,000 and put LTC price at $3.00 USD then run your calculator, you will see that 2 year ROI.

You must at least estimate future difficulty increases to get some realistic ROI.


As you can see LTC, is again skyrocketing due to the recent price increase.
Here's a sample assuming LTC is difficulty is growing 0.5% per period (very conservative). I used your 140MH/520W/0.04c/KwH and yielded a different result with difficulty growing.  It can definitely be improved by profit switching.
http://www.vnbitcoin.org/detailcalculationltc.php?name=LiteCoin_Mining_Rig&startdate=2016-12-28&costperunit=1180&wattperhour=520&gigahazarate=140000&daytoincrease=3&testlopfirst=3&diffincrement=.5&bitcoinperdollar=4.3&electriccostinput=.04&begindifflevel=70628

[lightfoot]

Part of the reason difficulty is going up is due to people with older/less efficient miners getting back into the game for awhile due to the price increase. That should settle out as the GAWs and the A2's drop off again.

I don't know what else there is besides Titans and Inno, and the extra power savings from the A4 doesn't really show a magnitude of improvement over the titan.

[usao]

Who mines LTC? I have in my auto-switch SQL logic, but it never rotates through.
Mostly getting GAME, TIPS, EAC and a bunch of those. Typically 120% over LTC

[excelerator]

Part of the reason difficulty is going up is due to people with older/less efficient miners getting back into the game for awhile due to the price increase. That should settle out as the GAWs and the A2's drop off again.

I don't know what else there is besides Titans and Inno, and the extra power savings from the A4 doesn't really show a magnitude of improvement over the titan.

The pool side hash rate on the A4 (240MH) yields effectively the same power/MH ratio as a Titan.

Titan: 1250/300 = 4.167
A4:  1000/240 = 4.167

You can move these numbers around but these machines compete toe to toe for profitability.

[lightfoot]

Part of the reason difficulty is going up is due to people with older/less efficient miners getting back into the game for awhile due to the price increase. That should settle out as the GAWs and the A2's drop off again.

I don't know what else there is besides Titans and Inno, and the extra power savings from the A4 doesn't really show a magnitude of improvement over the titan.

The pool side hash rate on the A4 (240MH) yields effectively the same power/MH ratio as a Titan.

Titan: 1250/300 = 4.167
A4:  1000/240 = 4.167

You can move these numbers around but these machines compete toe to toe for profitability.

Interesting. Titans were built around the 20u die sets, I wonder if the efficiency came from their jamming close to 250 cores on a die. I think they just built the damn things with wizard magic or something.

[Longsnowsm]

I think there is still some tweaking needed on the A4's.  We see them very very briefly when first started roar to an impressive hash rate then over time they just keep slowing down. 

I have played with mine some today setting it at the next highest MHZ setting and the miner takes off like a shot, nice numbers very briefly, then the speed gradually slows down to the same hash rate that it was hashing at with the lower MHZ setting. 

So there really isn't any point in doing that exercise I found.  Also interesting is the miner says that it is going roughly 5mhs faster on the miner side, but after the dust settles and it finds the spot it wants to hash you won't see any speed bump at all on the pool side. 

 

[lightfoot]

Possible, but you get into things like how do they distribute/queue work to the cores, what is the interrupt method when a core finds a hash, how does it distribute/collect work, etc. I remember when the guy built the chili, he got a 10% hash improvement by totally redesigning how work was sent to the cores.

Stuff like that. Once they open source the software you can fiddle with it and see what happens. Then again you might have to reprogram the MCU to get stuff like that.

Hm.

[Searing]

Part of the reason difficulty is going up is due to people with older/less efficient miners getting back into the game for awhile due to the price increase. That should settle out as the GAWs and the A2's drop off again.

I don't know what else there is besides Titans and Inno, and the extra power savings from the A4 doesn't really show a magnitude of improvement over the titan.

The pool side hash rate on the A4 (240MH) yields effectively the same power/MH ratio as a Titan.

Titan: 1250/300 = 4.167
A4:  1000/240 = 4.167

You can move these numbers around but these machines compete toe to toe for profitability.

Note: perhaps a tiny bit less with Gen Tarkin 3rd Party Firmware mods. I get 1200/300mh more or less. (may vary according to temps and your equip)
but a bit better then 1250 these days. Also if you do the maxumark (on here) brackets with individual heatsinks and 3000 rpm noctura fan to replace the
knc 1500 rpm..that may have helped this along as well)

but yeah oranges and oranges ..we knc titan owners also feel your pain. (and the all seeing eye of evil asic scrypt manufacturers and their evil ways)
different boats....still its a rowboat

the meme below explains how the asic makers see this (knc/innsilicon/bfl etc)



anyway same issues ...different year...it seems for asic miners

[vinylwasp]

The pool side hash rate on the A4 (240MH) yields effectively the same power/MH ratio as a Titan.

Titan: 1250/300 = 4.167
A4:  1000/240 = 4.167

You can move these numbers around but these machines compete toe to toe for profitability.

I get about 260 Mh/s poolside on my A4's using 1224Mhz at 814MV on Prohashing with no special settings, and I'd expect a little better if I was mining a single coin like LTC. The coin switching and changing diff per coin has a small negative effect on the poolside hashrate. On the miners, they'll mine at 281 Mhs all day.

But I think this sub is a little off kilter; yes there's been a firmware problem with the A4's, but there's been no "Die failed" issues with A4's, no burnt out 6Pin connectors, the DCDC circuitry isn't running at 105 degrees C, and they don't suffer from long restart penalities like a Titan does so I can mine anywhere I want to without worrying about custom poolside code and special miner settings per pool. Also Inno have been responsive and are working to resolve the firmware problem for everyone. It may be slow but it is happening.

Full credit and kudos to Gentarkin for his work in saving the Titan from all the issues they have but come on folks the A4 is a miles better proposition from a stability/reliability perspective. Also, my recollection is that a Titan uses something like 1300+ W at the wall, even as much as 1500W https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.41700

With respect to ROI, both calculators used above are useless, unless you beleive in a perfectly linear diff and price growth/decline, and as know the diff rate can fall just as fast as if can rise (see LTC diff rate between Dec 2014 and Dec 2015) while the price in truth has been very stable until a week ago.

If you're mining for profit, you should either mine on a multi-pool, or set up your miner so you can switch coins/pools yourself and use http://whattomine.com or coinwarz to help you decide what coins to mine.

Yesterday I was paid (after fees) 0.0000371 BTC per MH on Prohashing so a single A4 would earn you approx $9.35 per day at 260 MH/s.
If your electricity costs $0.12 per Kwh, it would cost you $3.16 per day (@1100w) giving a profit of $6.19.

$2000 (shipped) / 6.19 = 323 days ROI.

Of course, BTC could drop, so could LTC, the diff may fall, or it may rise, who knows, but 0.0000371 BTC per MH is a much better way of looking at ROI than using a single coin calculator, and if want a historical data on BTC per Mh, look here: https://poolpicker.eu/table?algo=scrypt, (just don't trust all the data  )







 

[kurbeks]

However if you want to make it a little more realistic, adjust that hash rate down to something you will actually see pool side.  You will get nowhere near the advertised hash rate on average.  At least I don't.  That changes the picture quite a bit. 

BTW, nice power rate, most of us could only wish.   

Yea agreed, I get on average around 230-240 MH/s, so that needs to be factored into the payback.  In all, these are just too high priced for me to pull the trigger on one.

Although I would like Inno to come back to this thread and make a comment on the under performing hashrate of these units. I assume there is no planned compensation or anything they will do about them running 15 to 17% slower than advertised?

Which pool you are using if you only get 230Mhas?

[kurbeks]

Also keep in mind if you mine on Prohashing or do conversion to BTC fast and keep BTC. Then those 6$ a day can be more than 10 later next years. (Of course it's some risk to keep BTC.)

[Searing]

The pool side hash rate on the A4 (240MH) yields effectively the same power/MH ratio as a Titan.

Titan: 1250/300 = 4.167
A4:  1000/240 = 4.167

You can move these numbers around but these machines compete toe to toe for profitability.

I get about 260 Mh/s poolside on my A4's using 1224Mhz at 814MV on Prohashing with no special settings, and I'd expect a little better if I was mining a single coin like LTC. The coin switching and changing diff per coin has a small negative effect on the poolside hashrate. On the miners, they'll mine at 281 Mhs all day.

But I think this sub is a little off kilter; yes there's been a firmware problem with the A4's, but there's been no "Die failed" issues with A4's, no burnt out 6Pin connectors, the DCDC circuitry isn't running at 105 degrees C, and they don't suffer from long restart penalities like a Titan does so I can mine anywhere I want to without worrying about custom poolside code and special miner settings per pool. Also Inno have been responsive and are working to resolve the firmware problem for everyone. It may be slow but it is happening.

Full credit and kudos to Gentarkin for his work in saving the Titan from all the issues they have but come on folks the A4 is a miles better proposition from a stability/reliability perspective. Also, my recollection is that a Titan uses something like 1300+ W at the wall, even as much as 1500W https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.41700

With respect to ROI, both calculators used above are useless, unless you beleive in a perfectly linear diff and price growth/decline, and as know the diff rate can fall just as fast as if can rise (see LTC diff rate between Dec 2014 and Dec 2015) while the price in truth has been very stable until a week ago.

If you're mining for profit, you should either mine on a multi-pool, or set up your miner so you can switch coins/pools yourself and use http://whattomine.com or coinwarz to help you decide what coins to mine.

Yesterday I was paid (after fees) 0.0000371 BTC per MH on Prohashing so a single A4 would earn you approx $9.35 per day at 260 MH/s.
If your electricity costs $0.12 per Kwh, it would cost you $3.16 per day (@1100w) giving a profit of $6.19.

$2000 (shipped) / 6.19 = 323 days ROI.

Of course, BTC could drop, so could LTC, the diff may fall, or it may rise, who knows, but 0.0000371 BTC per MH is a much better way of looking at ROI than using a single coin calculator, and if want a historical data on BTC per Mh, look here: https://poolpicker.eu/table?algo=scrypt, (just don't trust all the data   )







 

No disagreement...but seeing's how I had my Titans (some..I added) since nov 8th 2014 they can be a bit flaky For that 2 year head start on difficulty...I'll take that deal

Also the gen tarkin firmware....it is about 1200watts for 300mh for me now (with tweaks) on a 4 cube Titan if you also put in the maxumark bracket instead of the kludge
heatsink and indiv heatsink all 8 dies with a 3000 rpm notrura fan vs 1500 rpm knc kludge fan...

But indeed with a repasting every year (which you guys may want to do on the A4's too 24/7 etc) thermal paste that is...and the mods above for the titan it is running
10c to 15c cooler then the first 2 years lol So we are good....

anyway better to be a bit 'flaky and first by 2 years imho' just how it is

Big issue now is how much LTC Pow mining is there...for LTC say...the big danger now is not Titan's getting 2nd life or even A4's getting the kinks out..it is all them
nice NEW A4's coming out like toasters and the data hall folk for same running up LTC difficulty

heh in 6 months we all could be looking at lovely asic ltc doorstops

My own situation is....I THINK I can keep them in the black vs electric cost till next winter....so keep that in mind if things get dire....(heated my house 85% with 2
titans in basement last year..this year I have 4 in basement so looking at 95% plus.not sure equiv space heater power on how many A4's needed for such

.after this say 2017 to 2018 winter with the heat benefit for me... I think POW mining scrypt
with this level of asic's (a4's and titans) will probably not work anymore.....

either data halls or something better will have to come along imho

....LTC making a comeback to say 0.01 LTC to BTC would go a long long way to fixing all our problems for the next 2 years...that would be at 977 btc 9.77 ltc...now
that I could work with!

my 2 satoshi's worth

[Longsnowsm]

I could only wish that my A4's would pull an avg of 260mhs.  For me the average is in the 240-250 range with occasional blips above that on the pool. The miners at 1224mhz say 281mhs on the miner side, but on the pool after things settle down the hash rate is right back to where it was when set at 1200mhz.   So no real benefit seen on the pool side once the hash rate stabilizes after the restart. 

What the miner says has no bearing on reality for me.  I only wish I was seeing some of the numbers that others here are reporting on the pool side.  What does that translate to?  Well based on the numbers that Vinylwasp just posted it means I am losing on average over $2 a day at today's prices.  So that really stinks.