[ANN] HEAT: 3.0 crypto*multisig fiat*a2a hft*1000tps*DSA*PoS+PoP*e2ee chat*

[memberberry]

100% accurate. The releasedate was set to september if I rember correct. Then, after nothing happend, it was open and Svante said he would not name releasedates anymore and lied about ever stating a releasedate at all. It was absolutely ridiculous. Then CCex and the other exhange put up a buywall and set a deadline or they will delist heat entirely.  Then heat devs released a completely broken and useless coin in the last minute. They received coins back from the buywall the 2 exchanges put up but those were never distibuted to their rightful owner, the investors. They were basically stolen by the devs.
The expense sheet was also never released. My guess is due to tax issues and unexplainable "irregularities" aka fraud and lies. The expense sheet lie was another delay tactic until nobody would ask about it again. Good you bring it up. It was promised and where is it now? Should be simple to release those documents why don't you do it Eliphaz Fimk? Or was that just another blatant lie or do you come up with a cheap excuse again and tell us how you did not lie when it is 100% clear you got caught on the spot? I am waiting for answers?

[cryptonia]

They branded themselves blockchain 3.0 because they claimed heat would be able to do 1000tps. Now they admitted it can't do that and will not be able to do that outside of a private network.

Where did they claim they could do it outside of a private network?

Here is the reasoning so that even you understand it:
The promised 1000tps make heat blockchain 3.0 tech. They call it blockchain 3.0 because it can do 1000tps. As the devs have admitted heat can not do and never will do 1000tps therefore it is not blockchain 3.0.

You are still not providing any evidence of what you claim.

Lets start here. Rather than making wild accusations with any evidence whatsoever, why not calm down and provide the evidence.

[cryptonia]

This was written in Mid-January! About one month before the options issuance was meant to happen.
Well, it didn't. There's also no expenses sheet or any comparable document, all financials are a complete mystery contrary to what he promised here.

You are actually just rambling. Can you provide a coherent summary of what you are trying to say?

[cryptonia]

100% accurate. The releasedate was set to september if I rember correct. Then, after nothing happend, it was open and Svante said he would not name releasedates anymore and lied about ever stating a releasedate at all. It was absolutely ridiculous. Then CCex and the other exhange put up a buywall and set a deadline or they will delist heat entirely.  Then heat devs released a completely broken and useless coin in the last minute. They received coins back from the buywall the 2 exchanges put up but those were never distibuted to their rightful owner, the investors. They were basically stolen by the devs.
The expense sheet was also never released. My guess is due to tax issues and unexplainable "irregularities" aka fraud and lies. The expense sheet lie was another delay tactic until nobody would ask about it again. Good you bring it up. It was promised and where is it now? Should be simple to release those documents why don't you do it Eliphaz Fimk? Or was that just another blatant lie or do you come up with a cheap excuse again and tell us how you did not lie when it is 100% clear you got caught on the spot? I am waiting for answers?

You still aren't providing any evidence. Do you realise that? You are rambling on with no evidence provided at all. Nothing. Just your own ramble which may or may not be true.

It's obvious you guys are unhappy, but no one can have any way to tell whether you are making things up or accurately recounting what happened.

[adhitthana]

Only 1000 transactions per second? thats nothing. these guys say 10,000 transactions per second lol

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2093904.0

[Mjbmonetarymetals]

Looks like HEAT is heading down to page 3 on coinmarketcap, bookmark - https://coinmarketcap.com/3

[Eliphaz Fimk]

As explained earlier, options issuance and share sale have been pushed forward a couple of times until the HEAT tech is mature enough, market conditions are good and officially audited financial statements for the first full financial from Aug 2016 to July 2017 year are out. The options still are planned for release within September / October.

Troll ramblings about the 1000 tps "promise being broken" and "admitted" that it couldn't be done are complete bullshit. Instead we've admitted 1000 tps processing indeed is achieved by HEAT in private networks as advertised and very possibly it will be achieved in p2p networks also after the networking layer is remade in 2018. Good to see most people are able to tell the reality from the persistent but futile manipulation attempts of these obviously biased dyslexic freaks.

Looks like HEAT is heading down to page 3 on coinmarketcap, bookmark - https://coinmarketcap.com/3

HEAT's market cap has been for many months lingering around the $10M level, which sometimes puts it to the 3rd page and sometimes on page 2.
During the current long development stint and in absence of significant news the market value is holding up nicely as compared to many other cryptos.

[memberberry]

100% accurate. The releasedate was set to september if I rember correct. Then, after nothing happend, it was open and Svante said he would not name releasedates anymore and lied about ever stating a releasedate at all. It was absolutely ridiculous. Then CCex and the other exhange put up a buywall and set a deadline or they will delist heat entirely.  Then heat devs released a completely broken and useless coin in the last minute. They received coins back from the buywall the 2 exchanges put up but those were never distibuted to their rightful owner, the investors. They were basically stolen by the devs.
The expense sheet was also never released. My guess is due to tax issues and unexplainable "irregularities" aka fraud and lies. The expense sheet lie was another delay tactic until nobody would ask about it again. Good you bring it up. It was promised and where is it now? Should be simple to release those documents why don't you do it Eliphaz Fimk? Or was that just another blatant lie or do you come up with a cheap excuse again and tell us how you did not lie when it is 100% clear you got caught on the spot? I am waiting for answers?

You still aren't providing any evidence. Do you realise that? You are rambling on with no evidence provided at all. Nothing. Just your own ramble which may or may not be true.

It's obvious you guys are unhappy, but no one can have any way to tell whether you are making things up or accurately recounting what happened.

There will be no evidence for you. You seem to be unable to read and unable to understand things. Sorry if you are unable to read and understand but this is a necessary process to see things as evidence so stop rambling and crying about "but there is no evidence", there is and never will be any evidence for you about anything. For everyone else here is a summary of the events that happened. https://www.reddit.com/r/HeatLedgerIsAScam/comments/62w71u/timeline_of_heat_events/ Nothing in there has ever been challenged and is accurate.
Oh I just saw another deception and lie by our airhead Fimk "December 2016: Eliphaz Fimk posts this: For the altcoiners, I can now make a promise: We will be using some ICO funds for price level support (in some form of buy walls, in a way that has the highest impact)." There has never been any buywall ever xD

As explained earlier, options issuance and share sale have been pushed forward a couple of times until the HEAT tech is mature enough, market conditions are good and officially audited financial statements for the first full financial from Aug 2016 to July 2017 year are out. The options still are planned for release within September / October.

Troll ramblings about the 1000 tps "promise being broken" and "admitted" that it couldn't be done are complete bullshit. Instead we've admitted 1000 tps processing indeed is achieved by HEAT in private networks as advertised and very possibly it will be achieved in p2p networks also after the networking layer is remade in 2018. Good to see most people are able to tell the reality from the persistent but futile manipulation attempts of these obviously biased dyslexic freaks.

Hello airhead, where is your expense sheet? Where is it? Did your head/ass forget about it already? And no, before the ico you never said heat will do 1000tps in PRIVATE NETWORKS! That you pulled out of your head/ass AFTER the ICO! WHERE IS THE EXPENSE SHEET YOU MONGOLOID PROMISED? And who are those "developers" you talked about before? You know the ones you said you employed and that are working hard on heat? Do they even exist or do they feel too ashamed to work for heat now? I can understand that, nobody wants to be associated with this horseshit coin and two pathological liars like you. I think you got caught in another lie! Such an honest person hahahah. An where is your "dedicated crypto blogger"? Did he leave because he didn't want to be associated with scum like heat anymore? Oh and by "dyslexic freaks" I guess you mean these two aids suffering turds:

Pull your head out of your ass and show some responsibility instead of rambling about everyone who disagrees with you is a fudster, this fucktard even rambled against CCEx and Alcurex when they put up the buywall because mr Svante could not keep any promise. Man you are a hopeless case. Never seen such a blatant liar. Smell your farts you shithead.

[tetra]

This was written in Mid-January! About one month before the options issuance was meant to happen.
Well, it didn't. There's also no expenses sheet or any comparable document, all financials are a complete mystery contrary to what he promised here.

You are actually just rambling. Can you provide a coherent summary of what you are trying to say?

What more do you want? What in the last 5 or 6 posts does not serve this purpose well enough?

[cryptonia]

Are Memberberry Tetra and StewieG all the same person?

[memberberry]

Are Memberberry Tetra and StewieG all the same person?

Again this question has been asked many times before, but since you are new and are too lazy to read up and just prefer to come in here and ramble the same shit over and over again I will not answer your nonsensical rambling anymore.
Getting an answer from people that owe you nothing is not a right it is a privilege. You just lost that privilege.

Exactly. Hashcoins sold miners but kept them for themselves

You have no evidence this is what happened. A

All you have done is cause small investors to lose money by making this claim but not backing it up with evidence

IMHO is a scam

Fair enough. It could be a scam. But at the moment there is no evidence it is

Still silence from devs here. They are scammers

They're not scammers, and wait a few days and the price will start climbing since all bounties have been dumped already.

How can u be so sure once they are accusation be the same with hashcoins?

There is no evidence Hashcoins was a scam.

personally I don't think they handled it well but that is not the same as being a scam.

They were unable to delver the equipment and so they offered access to their mining farm as compensation.  As has been explained in this thread that is not illegal under European law.

Lots of people were unable to deliver mining equipment because of the huge demand globally. 
As I said they did not handle it well, but that is not evidence of a scam

Is there still a chance to recover money from this scam?

No chance really, Ive tried everything, used every swear word, contacted them several times, yet no response.

Silence on the part of developers just confirms that this is a scam!
There is no way they can answer because they have no way of defending themselves!

Silence on the part of developers on bitcointalk is not evidence. It is speculation.

How bank can exist with crypto? From the start this idea was crazy and they know about it!
This scammers should be punished!

Exactly. Crypto came about to get rid of banks, which are the root of all problems with the fiat system. Crypto was designed to be held & controlled by the owner, not some online, unstable, unsafe & nameless "bank" that nobody knows anything about. So, who the hell is going to use a bank to store their crypto? It goes against everything Crypto was designed for ffs!!

Yet here we have a proven scam company using shill accounts to try to convince users they need a bank & that they can be trusted to keep your crypto.....

The worst thing is, this isn't the first time Ambisafe have tried this trick, they are also responsible for Chronobank & made a killing with that scam as well. Hashcoins know a good scam when they see one, which is why they have joined forces with Ambisafe to do another "bank" ICO scam. The result will be the same though, investors will hand over money for worthless tokens, the project will fail due to it's stupidity & Ambisafe/hashcoins will make another killing & move on to their next ICO scam.
In fact, Ambisafe have already done so, starting another 4 ICO's since this one using the same nixoid account:

Orocrypt (scam)  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1982115.msg19737575#msg19737575
Compcoin (dead)   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1965246.msg19537280#msg19537280
Orderbook (dead)  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1980695.msg19722978#msg19722978
Propy (scam)  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1982115.msg19737575#msg19737575

Plus there are other Ambisafe accounts pushing their scams on the various different language threads too of course. No matter how much proof is posted, the shill accounts here will still cry about lack of proof - that's their job of course, but the average user here recognises the facts that these shill accounts choose to ignore.

This is not the first ICO bank scam, it won't be the last either, as long as people are naive & stupid enough to invest in them.

Nothing you have posted is evidence that Polybius is a scam.

You don't understand how the difference between reaching a conclusion based on evidence and reaching a conclusion based on your own speculation

really scam? please give me info for detile.
I think stop post in here now if fix scam

Go to exchange and check price.. then read this thread..

Answer is simple: SCAM!

That is not evidence

There is no shame in exposing scammers, if one can realize that someone is trying to scam investors, I feel its a duty then to spread the word and not let more people fall into their scam.

There is a lot of shame in doing what people are doing here, which is saying SCAM SCAM SCAM but not backing it up with evidence.
It is wrong to do that.

It is wrong to do what you are doing too.   You have no evidence this is a scam.

When will you people realise how the real world works?   You need to provide evidence not mindlessly repeat the word scam.

All you are doing is fudding and causing people to lose their money. You should be ashamed, but instead you think you are some kind of hero.

You are not a hero. 

Can you please learn something about evidence based conclusions

Okay, the fud piqued my interest so I signed up on the official website.

Can the Polybius team make it clear whether or not it is MANDATORY to fill out the verification forms?

Photo ID
Utility Bill
Card Ownership
Bank Information
Employment Information
Source of funds/Networth

For an ICO?

What evidence is there is is mandatory? I invested a little without giving that.

I didn't put too much as I'm going to wait and see if there is some news that comes out about progress.

Is that all you do? Ramble about that there is no "evidence"? Oh and ramble about who satoshi is? I had a look in his post history and I just realized I have been talking to a complete loon the whole time xD The no evidence guy, looks like there is no evidence that there is something in between your ears. Have you any evidence of it, I don't see any! xD This guy must be the freak Svante talked about! xDxDxD

[tetra]

Are Memberberry Tetra and StewieG all the same person?

Stewie and Memberberry are. I am not

Doesn't make his points any less valid though.

[tetra]

As explained earlier, options issuance and share sale have been pushed forward a couple of times until the HEAT tech is mature enough, market conditions are good and officially audited financial statements for the first full financial from Aug 2016 to July 2017 year are out.

That's exactly what I'm questioning! You keep on saying you're waiting for a mature tech...
You MUST have known this all beforehand! Yet you presented HEAT as being ready in the ICO

And also in January, you MUST have known that it wouldn't be ready. Yet you presented it as if the options were just around the corner as were the financial statements

This behavior of knowing, things are not like you constantly present them to be, is exactly what I am calling deceptive!
Well...it's not me who is calling it deceptive, it's actually the definition of deception

[AND01]

Block chain + AI (Artificial Intelligence), the future development of hot technology, HEAT team should be concerned about AI technology. HEAT can introduce AI technology at the bottom of the block in the future.

[memberberry]

Block chain + AI (Artificial Intelligence), the future development of hot technology, HEAT team should be concerned about AI technology. HEAT can introduce AI technology at the bottom of the block in the future.

At this point HEAT team should be concerned not going to jail and rot in a dirty hole for a long time while occasionally feeling some kind of stick from behind..

[memberberry]

Are Memberberry Tetra and StewieG all the same person?

Stewie and Memberberry are. I am not

Doesn't make his points any less valid though.

Wrong, memberberry and StewieG are not the same person. True, it doesn't make their points any less valid though. Don't get involved in this useless discussions. What matters is the constant lying of Svante Lehtinen. This pathological liar is what is the real subject here!

[memberberry]

Troll ramblings about the 1000 tps "promise being broken" and "admitted" that it couldn't be done are complete bullshit. Instead we've admitted 1000 tps processing indeed is achieved by HEAT in private networks as advertised and very possibly it will be achieved in p2p networks also after the networking layer is remade in 2018.

Oh well let's see where you mentioned "in a private network"...

...
What makes HEAT 3rd generation?

H.E.A.T. Ledger stands for Heuristically Enhanced Asynchronous Transactions Ledger, embodying a completely new way of structuring cryptocurrency and peer-to-peer decentralized asset ledger. Optimized for speed and architected in enterprise friendly Java for custom private chains, HEAT slices the currently used blockchain database technology to modular components and readily provides flexibly scalable server side technology for corporate needs of any size.

UNLIMITED SCALABILITY

HEAT's unbounded vertical scalability is only limited by the performance of the hardware used. Utilizing not a single blockchain , but a chain of blockchains - and removing embedded databases through the use of off-heap memory mapped binary files, the HEAT blockchain is able to sustain transaction throughput of at least 1000 tps 24/7. On our internal tests the HEAT server has been capable of achieving an unbelievable rate of 100,000 updates per second on commonly available consumer hardware.
...

4.  Transaction throughput rate initially in the 1000 tps scale on legacy hardware
5.  Unlimited scalability depending on node hardware: Boost rates of 10k+ tps on standard 4-core Linux server

...

8.  High frequency trading enabling instant matching of 1k+ trades per second stable

...

But because this has been changed several times and we can not recollect what was written around the time the ICO happened, lets just take the words that were provided on the heatledger.com website on October 2016 (https://web.archive.org/web/20161002170557/http://heatledger.com/):

Unlimited scalability

HEAT's unbounded vertical scalability is only limited by the performance of the hardware used. Utilizing not a single blockchain but a chain of them, and removing embedded databases through the use of off-heap memory mapped binary files, the HEAT blockchain is able to sustain transaction throughput of at least 1000 tps 24/7.

Or maybe a look in the whitepaper released on 2.8.2016 (https://web.archive.org/web/20161027185243/http://heatledger.com/HEATWhitepaper.pdf):

Introduction
HEAT Ledger is a self-appointed “Gen 3.0” cryptocurrency platform focusing on resolving the two
most pressing pitfalls of the existing 2.0 and 1.0 cryptocurrency server software solutions; Low
transaction rate throughput and the burden of hosting large blockchain files on any single p2p node.

Wow not once in the whole whitepaper is there ANY mentioning of any feature being only available in a PRIVATE network...

@Eliphaz Fimk
Here is some evidence you claimed HEAT can do 1000tps. It is the very first site on this thread and even on your webiste. " the HEAT blockchain is able to sustain transaction throughput of at least 1000 tps 24/7", the HEAT blockchain is not any private blockchain! It is the public blockchain where heat has value, it is not some private blockchain or some testnet, it THE HEAT BLOCKCHAIN THAT IS LIVE RIGHT NOW! Now you can look at the title of this thread, notice something? It says 1000tps! Notice in the quote above how it says 1k+ trades per second? I wonder how this works when you can not send 1000tps per second? Or is EVERYTHING meant to work only in a private network? Because I don't see ANYWHERE that you say explicitly that the feature will only work in a private network? How about you knucklehead provide some EVIDENCE you said PRIOR TO THE ICO that the 1000tps would work only in a PRIVATE network! The ONLY mention of an internal network is this "On our internal tests the HEAT server has been capable of achieving an unbelievable rate of 100,000 updates per second on commonly available consumer hardware." and here you make the clear distinction between an internal network / private network and th eheat blockchain! From what I read it says EVERYWHERE that heat can do 1000tps and it is stated NOWHERE that this will only be reached in a private network! Or are we going back and you say heat can do 1000tps and lie about the whole bullshit again? I think you owe the community some answers dipshit!
And you little piece of shit say what we are complaining about is "rambling trolls" and "bullshit" and you seriously think you are an honest person? You are a laughingstock you little clown! Your parents must be ashamed of you!


UPDATE: Another example the heat clowns deceived by presenting their coin as being more advanced in development than it actually was:

POS and POP... what is POP?

P.O.P. stands for Proof of Presence.

....

But lets get back to POP, this is an incentive we have build into the protocol where we reward node operators to host past blocks files.
The proof comes from a challenge that is written to the blockchain and which you can only solve by scanning the entire blocksfile from start to finish, those node operators then publish their proof to the blockchain and the protocol will reward them if correct.

...

we have build into the protocol

This is a post taken from the very first page. Notice the present perfect simple tense! They say HAVE BUILD it into the protocol. Until now as far as I know POP is not implemented at all in HEAT. Another blatant lie in order to promote their horseshitcoin? Judge for yourself or let Svante the clown tell you a funny story about it. xD

[Crapsy]

3rd batch of IGNIS on the heat wallet coming up in a few days. You can check out the price and actual countdown at http://getignis.com/.

[Roman Thain]

when the hit will be traded on major exchanges? It can even happen?

[CrowInACrown]

I have to say, that I was quite enthusiastic about HEAT initially. And why I am far away from taking the side of obvious FUDders (yes, there are FUDers in this community and please do not deny it), I think that being a shill is equally wrong (and equally popular here). Many people are bagholding HEAT and it is obvious to an outsider that those people just want to exit this project. While the concept and technical execution are right the business aspect of HEAT lacks professionalism. It was stated somewhere that busines person leading the project has years of experience in business but experience does not always mean professionalism. The way how many things were handled here clearly prove that he is not the brightest kid on the block when it comes to handling business (nothing personal, just stating the obvious) and definitely has little knowledge of blockchain tech itself. Obviously Poloniex is not listing this project and Bittrex also clearly stated the same. There was some attempt to list HEAT on Cryptopia but IMO it was just an attempt to make everyone more enthusiastic about the project and even people who initiated this understand HEAT will not get listed on cryptopia. Previous project of those devs has similar track record. FIMK had interesting tech (like HEAT does) but it was never listed on a good exchange. HEAT is following the same path. I think everyone of us bagholders here gets it but we are hoping that something unusual will happen and the price will skyrocket, which obviously will not happen. Our direct competitors like Waves have now multimillion market cap. Startup business (and crypto business too) is about unicorns and projects that make mistakes. You can not win them all. Accept your investment mistakes and move on instead of trying to throw your bag to ther people, this is morally superior (and if you truly believe in a project - despite the fact that everything proves things are other way round - just hold it silently and do not try to lure other people). HEAT lost with Waves. HEAT is following FIMK path. It will continue to go down in Coinmarketcap and there was never a coin that fell below 200 top coins that went up (it happened for 100 top coins quite often though). I do not think HEAT will be successful but there are couple of possible solutions.

1. Business dev of the projects needs to become more humble and accept that he is not that good as he would like to be. Hire professional developer, especially with knowledge of crypto and remain just a holder of company's assets but stop making business decisions since you are terrible in it. And yes, you perhaps think that you have lots of leads that will convert into partnerships and it will be great, but I have seen (and probably not only me) people like that who truly believe in their business skills while in reality they suck and can not admit this. Those are usually very young people that are just entering the business (that is not you) or people with lots of experience, that were not made for this kind of job but are having problems with admitting it to themselves and are trying to prove others and themselves that they are good businessmen why they are not. Bottomline: hire someone who  knows how to handle things.

2. Improve your communication. I am not here to judge if you are deceiving people like many people do suggest or you are not knowledgeable how to do proper communicaton, but the fact is that those and many more controversies emerged: taking C-CEX coins for yourselves (the company) instead of giving them to users, constant delays, constant "misunderstanings" (like the recent one on Twitter that you admitted was example of not clear communication), constant lack of transparency (supposed new members of the team, accounting report - no proofs of those, constant delays, not judging if those are a lie or lack of professional commmunication, but both are bad). I am not here to judge which of those missteps were result of your lack of professionalism and which were accidental and which were attempts to deceive community which is very tolerant here (or maybe stupid in your eyes). I am just saying this needs to be fixed. Bottomline: hire someone who will make sure you communicate in more transparent and professional matter. Right now it does not look like professional crypto company but like startup from bunch of students. Their first. (Which obviously is not the case here, but this is how it looks).

3. Take care about the exchanges. While you might enjoy spreading the illusion (to the community and perhaps yourselves) that exchanges are not important the fact is that the opposite is true and any person with even basic crypto experience is going to tell you this. This is for 2 reasons: 1) Exchanges are the most efficient way to promote the project and build the brand name. Not being listed on a serious exchange simply shows that the project is not good enough for this and devs are not skilled enough to make this happen, 2) It is not true that "product first, exchanges later". All the successful project are following the opposite rule. Ethereum was tradable very soon, Golem (most successful ico on ethereum in terms of ROI) hit the exchanges without the project ready even now, Stratis (most profitable ICO of lasy year) was trading with basic wallet on a temporary blockchain, Waves (your biggest competitor that had ICO same time as HEAT) was trading as a plain blockchain for a long time initially). If you are not on the exchanges you do not count and are not taken seriously.

4. HEAT brand is tarnished. Ask average person what they think about HEAT and they will either say they haven't heard about it (which is bad for project that had ICO in 2016) or will say that "This is that failed ICO that none of the exchanges want to list and has constant forks/tech problems?". While the latter part of the sentence is false (there are no tech problems anymore), this is what people have in mind when you talk about heat. Do not trust me on that. Go to any other Slack or group and ask the question yourselves. HEAT is synonim of failed project for people aware of it. Even if you manage to find best team it will be very hard to fix this. This will be unpopular opinion, but another relaunch is the solution. Start third blockchain, let people buy it for HEAT but this time make things right and most of all make it fast. The only problem is people will not be eager to give you money since you have terrible reputation in crypto world now. Probably HEAT bagholders will buy into new coin and maybe some new people who enjoy taking risk will spend some BTC but it will not be the most impressive ICO but it will let you get rid of the name that is synonymous of crypto failure now.

5. This will be controversial for the bagholders. Current forging rewards are too high. They should be significantly reduced. There are so many new coins produced every day that the price will continue to be suppressed. There is technically nothign wrong about it, you still are getting profit but do not expect the price increase if there will be such big inflation. No need to change that, but also stop complaining about the price.

There was nice pump to over 7000 sat recently. The coin is still above 5000 so quite nice exit point (x4 ICO price in terms of USD!). But I guess when we go below 4000 sat soon there is no way up again.