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 Author Topic: Is taxation theft?  (Read 56915 times)
BossRoss89
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 August 14, 2018, 10:30:23 AM

Look at it this way, theft ("A") is illegal ("C"), whereas taxation ("B") is legal ("-C"), right? If A=C and B=C, then A=B, right? But in our example A=C, but B=-C, so they cannot be equal. Therefore, in terms of "linear logic," "taxation" ≠ "theft," IMHO.
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 August 14, 2018, 11:13:26 AM

Look at it this way, theft ("A") is illegal ("C"), whereas taxation ("B") is legal ("-C"), right? If A=C and B=C, then A=B, right? But in our example A=C, but B=-C, so they cannot be equal. Therefore, in terms of "linear logic," "taxation" ≠ "theft," IMHO.

Legal and illegal pertain to laws. Aren't we supposed to be equal in America. Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2:
... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ...

So, who is right, since we are all created equal? If some other jokers make taxes legal, even though theft is illegal, but I make a law that taxes are illegal just like theft, why is my law not equal to theirs?

Actually, anybody who gets down to the basics of it all, and properly proclaims his law and the upholding of it, doesn't owe any taxes. Taxes will not be taken from him. How to do this?

Stop contracting with government in the W-4 and other docs.
Require to face your accuse in court as permitted by law:
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is your accuser on income tax indictments.
Your accuser can't take the oath and get on the stand and testify.
No case.
Force the man or woman bringing an accusation against you to show the contract or the injury. If you signed, then pay. If you did injury, then repay. Otherwise you don't owe.

Are you part of the laws of the U.S. government? How did you get that way? Let's see the contract you signed. Why are they calling you a citizen without naturalization? Was it your idea that you would be a citizen because you were born on a certain chunk of land?

The United States makes it easy to not pay taxes, legally. Other countries might not make it so easy. But with a bit of work, you can get out of taxes everywhere.

BTW, this makes taxation to not be theft. Rather, it makes it to be voluntary ignorance of the law.

Wizardbizari
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 August 14, 2018, 09:45:47 PM

Look at it this way, theft ("A") is illegal ("C"), whereas taxation ("B") is legal ("-C"), right? If A=C and B=C, then A=B, right? But in our example A=C, but B=-C, so they cannot be equal. Therefore, in terms of "linear logic," "taxation" ≠ "theft," IMHO.

Legal and illegal pertain to laws. Aren't we supposed to be equal in America. Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2:
... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ...

So, who is right, since we are all created equal? If some other jokers make taxes legal, even though theft is illegal, but I make a law that taxes are illegal just like theft, why is my law not equal to theirs?

Actually, anybody who gets down to the basics of it all, and properly proclaims his law and the upholding of it, doesn't owe any taxes. Taxes will not be taken from him. How to do this?

Stop contracting with government in the W-4 and other docs.
Require to face your accuse in court as permitted by law:
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is your accuser on income tax indictments.
Your accuser can't take the oath and get on the stand and testify.
No case.
Force the man or woman bringing an accusation against you to show the contract or the injury. If you signed, then pay. If you did injury, then repay. Otherwise you don't owe.

Are you part of the laws of the U.S. government? How did you get that way? Let's see the contract you signed. Why are they calling you a citizen without naturalization? Was it your idea that you would be a citizen because you were born on a certain chunk of land?

The United States makes it easy to not pay taxes, legally. Other countries might not make it so easy. But with a bit of work, you can get out of taxes everywhere.

BTW, this makes taxation to not be theft. Rather, it makes it to be voluntary ignorance of the law.

Just curious, how do you get out of taxes in the US? Legally, I mean, of course.
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 August 15, 2018, 05:33:53 PM

Just curious, how do you get out of taxes in the US? Legally, I mean, of course.

Basically, there are two parts to this. The first is your property. The second is voluntarily signing your property over to someone else by agreement. Ever heard the IRS say "voluntary compliance?" The focus is to get you to sign on some line somewhere.

Your labor is your property. You have other kinds of property, as well. What I mean is, if you are just standing there, doing nothing, your labor is yours. If you exercise by lifting weights, your labor is yours. No taxing authority owns any part of it. If you don't want to buy weights to lift, you can find a couple of rocks (or something else) and lift them. Do you owe taxes on such? No, of course not. But it is labor, just like if you had a job.

This brings us to the second part. You have your own labor which is your property, but you can make an agreement to give some of your property to someone else if you want. So, you get a job, and agree with your employer to trade labor for some cash-dollars/credit/money-in-the-bank/whatever. Where in your agreement does it talk about giving some of your labor trade to the IRS in the form of taxes? If it talks about this, and you agree to it by signing employer/employee paperwork, then pay your taxes that you agreed to. If you don't want to sign, but your potential employer won't accept you without it, you have to decide what you want more, the job, or no taxes.

If your employer has no stipulation to pay taxes, but requires that you fill out a Form W-4 for the IRS, fill it out "n-a"-on-all-lines/non-assumpsit/Exempt-on-line-7, and sign it "non-assumpsit" (note that the W-4 may be changed, so this might not apply exactly like this). Understand what you are doing when you do this, before you do it, to know what to do next if your employer or the IRS will not honor your agreement with them but will make trouble for you instead.

The point is, we are a private property country. Your property is yours until you agree to give/trade it to someone else. The IRS needs your agreement (W-4) to give them your property before they have any right to it, because it is your property. This means that you need to look through all your agreements and see if you are turning over your property to them by signing some paperwork along the line.

What about court? If you know your neighbor next door has an extra \$100,000 lying around, you can falsely sue him, stating that he owes you \$100,000. If you take him to court, and he doesn't fight you properly, you just might be able to get the \$100,000 of him, for nothing. But if you lose, you could wind up owing him the \$100,000 along with damages for a false claim.

This is exactly what the IRS does to people who don't make an agreement with them to give them some of their property. They are a protection racket, like the Mafia used to be in the Al Capone days. But, they are smarter than Al. They use the courts. They are very clever in court. And the court is on their side... first by getting you to think that you need an attorney, which is the start of your court downfall right there.

Study the stuff at https://www.youtube.com/user/765736/videos. There is better info in some other places, but when you get the info from this site, you are getting it in ways that will help you get an understanding of it. Using simple mechanics - simply saying the right words - doesn't work in court, generally. You need to learn what you are doing and why. There is a lot to learn, but the whole picture is quite simple - private property. Get the idea into your head first, that your labor and your money is you private property until you sign it over to someone else.

Elwar
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 August 15, 2018, 05:58:16 PM

Look at it this way, theft ("A") is illegal ("C"), whereas taxation ("B") is legal ("-C"), right? If A=C and B=C, then A=B, right? But in our example A=C, but B=-C, so they cannot be equal. Therefore, in terms of "linear logic," "taxation" ≠ "theft," IMHO.

Just like when the US bombs women and children in Iraq it's not murder because it's legal.

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 August 15, 2018, 06:10:12 PM

Just curious, how do you get out of taxes in the US? Legally, I mean, of course.

Basically, there are two parts to this. The first is your property. The second is voluntarily signing your property over to someone else by agreement. Ever heard the IRS say "voluntary compliance?" The focus is to get you to sign on some line somewhere.

Give Me Liberty or Give Me Property Rights!

Property, Freedom, and Society: Essays in Honor of Hans-Hermann Hoppe, edited by Jörg Guido Hülsmann and Stephan Kinsella.

Frank van Dun (FvD) offers his view on this question in his essay entitled Freedom and Property: Where They Conflict.  If I may summarize his essay in the form of a question: if the objective of libertarian theorizing is anything other than securing freedom, then why are we wasting our time?  He wouldn't say it that way, as I suspect he is too much the gentleman.  Such concerns rarely stand in my way!

The question may prompt an obvious retort: what is the difference?  The non-aggression principle, properly and fully applied, will result in freedom.  FvD will disagree.

Libertarian theorists like to trace social and economic problems to coercive, usually government-imposed or sanctioned interventions in the free market or restrictions on the exercise of the libertarian rights of self-ownership, private appropriation and use of material resources, and exchange by mutual consent.

 Thus, proper application of the non-aggression principle is all that is necessary for freedom to flourish. Property, Freedom, and... Jorg Guido Hulsmann Best Price: \$12.88 Buy New \$14.39 (as of 05:25 EDT - Details)This is fine as far as it goes—but how far does it go? As we shall see below, respect for the above-mentioned libertarian rights is not in itself sufficient to guarantee the freedom of every person. There may be cases where there is a conflict between claims on behalf of one person's freedom and claims on behalf of another person's private property.This is one of those "approach with real caution" essays; if one doesn't draw an absolute line around private property, where does one end on the slippery slope to full-blown socialism?  By the end of this essay, you will find that I am taking the wimpy way out…at least for this day.

Where there is such conflict, which should prevail: your freedom or my property?  I have in the past, and continue to believe today, that your freedom to have me bake a cake for you doesn't trump my property rights in my oven.  FvD is working through an issue not as easily solvable as this…but still, the issue of the slippery slope must be recognized and dealt with.

As a libertarian – and for a libertarian – it is difficult to give up on this "freedom as property" notion.  First of all, it is the basis for the most effective arguments against government interventions of all sorts (well, second, perhaps, to moral arguments…but few people listen to these).  Second, it undercuts the idea that libertarian law is nothing beyond the most rigorous application of the non-aggression principle.

But is the objective property or is it freedom?  What happens if there is a conflict, which one wins?  If the winner is anything other than property – in every situation – then where does the line get drawn – and how powerful must the line be to avoid sliding down the slippery slope to hell?

discoverblockchain
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 August 16, 2018, 09:40:06 PM

I think this is a very hard question to answer, it really depends also on what is done with the taxes
yogg
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 August 16, 2018, 10:12:24 PM

Yes, taxation in it's current form is theft. As long as transparent accounting isn't provided, and budgets allocated by a voting process.

We should be able to chose which community we want to live in, "subscribe" to their "fee" (whatever role taxation has today) but in a transparent way.
In that way, they are accountable for every coin that was sent there. And you would be free to chose one or the other community that you prefer. Each with it's own rules.

Nothing set in stone. Nothing that behove to you from birth that you cannot easily change.

actmyname
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welcome to my minecraft let's play

 August 17, 2018, 04:18:36 AM

-snip snap-
Unfortunately, you won't be able to do much about it. The voting process even in a "democratic" country usually isn't dissimilar to a prisoner's dilemma problem. Unless there is a severe tonal shift in the human nature of deciding things, we'll see the same steadfast deadlock of political stagnancy.
That being said, taxes are good and bad. Some parts of the budget are well-spent and the others are just spent. Everyone has their own opinions on this, which is where we get into problems.

As for me, I'm with Carlin on this one.

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mockcooleat
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 August 17, 2018, 06:02:55 AM

Taxation is not a theft but those who use it for their own benefits and not to the tax payer are the thieves. This also can be realted to the saying about MONEY, money is not the root of all evil but the LOVE for it. If someone becomes devoted to money alone they become greedy and is consumed by it.
FilesFM_Official
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 August 17, 2018, 09:20:51 AM

Im a happy tax payer but unfortunately I live in a country where the politicians and banks are totally corrupt (Latvia) I mean when you have a population of 1.8million but 23 big established banks you can imagine we are here to clean money for Russia, EU and other nations. I just wished the tax I'm happy to pay wouldn't line the pockets of corrupt government officials and would be spent on the people who need it. A country like Latvia has a shitty welfare system where the average salary is 500\$ a month, and benefits if you need them are little to none existent.
makel0ve
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 August 17, 2018, 09:30:17 AM

Frankly speaking, I think that taxation is a good thing, rich people pay more, and poor people pay less. But the key question is whether the taxes received can be used for implementation rather than being corrupted.

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 August 17, 2018, 01:18:16 PM

Frankly speaking, I think that taxation is a good thing, rich people pay more, and poor people pay less. But the key question is whether the taxes received can be used for implementation rather than being corrupted.

Where do rich people get their money? They sell products and services to the poor... when they are not defrauding the poor, that is. So, where do they get their wealth that they hand over to government in the form of taxes? From the poor.

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 August 17, 2018, 01:25:25 PM

Taxation is not a theft but those who use it for their own benefits and not to the tax payer are the thieves. This also can be realted to the saying about MONEY, money is not the root of all evil but the LOVE for it. If someone becomes devoted to money alone they become greedy and is consumed by it.

Taxes are not theft because they are legal. Taxes are legal because some people got together and said they are legal.

The Declaration of Independence says that all people are created equal.

Taxes are theft because they are illegal. Taxes are illegal because some people got together and said they are illegal.

Sounds like you have the right to make taxes legal or illegal by what you say.

If you say taxes are legal, who are you saying they are legal for? Certainly not for yourself. Because as soon as you agree to pay taxes, they become a donation for you... not taxes.

So, if you say taxes are legal, who are you really saying they are legal for? For the people who say that taxes are illegal, of course. This means that you want to steal money/property from other people, and get government to do your dirty work for you.

If you say taxes are illegal, what are you really saying? You are saying that people should be allowed to do with their own money/property whatever they like. If they want to donate to government, let them. If they don't want to, don't force them.

fairyvibes
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 August 17, 2018, 02:00:04 PM

We are all part of a society, I don't see a problem paying tax if it helps build roads, infrastructure, and helps the less fortunate so they wont be stuck in poverty.

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 August 17, 2018, 02:30:12 PM

We are all part of a free society. Why should somebody else be allowed to force me to pay for stuff I don't want in my freedom in society? Why can't we all buy what we want, and donate to what we want? Is our society free or not?

HODL_guy
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 August 17, 2018, 10:42:43 PM

No, I totally don't think so. Taxation just represents how a successful society and country may create public effort to make our environment more comfortable and convenient.

eann014
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 August 18, 2018, 06:36:44 AM

Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs
I didn't agree that taxation is a theft, theft is getting a money without knowing the people you are getting from them. Taxation is all around the government and it is also helpful for our country because paying the right amount of tax can help our community grow if the government will not corrupt that money and put it inside their pocket. If we have a very good government then tax is always on a good hand.

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Elwar
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Viva Ut Vivas

 August 18, 2018, 07:32:13 AM

*beep* *oop* *burp*
*I am a robot*
*tax is not theft if money is spent right*
*end of transmission*
*derp* *fap* *boop*

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 August 18, 2018, 02:17:16 PM

No, I totally don't think so. Taxation just represents how a successful society and country may create public effort to make our environment more comfortable and convenient.

Taxation just represents how a
portion of society, or
a small dictatorial group in a society
can rule over a society.

If you voluntarily agree to be taxed, and then pay,
they aren't taxes for you. All they are is organized donations (contributions).

If you don't agree to be taxed,
but are forced or threatened into paying,
only then are they taxes for you.

Force or threat of force is what equates taxes with robbery.
Taxation is reduction of freedom.

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