Is taxation theft?

[Elwar]

This graphic says it all but the logic mostly generated by the capitalists class who are the ones "stealing" the surplus value in the first place.

Labor is voluntary.

This is where you are wrong 

It's not like people desire to eat, they must eat or they die, thus biological slavery brings people to forced labor

You don't have to work for someone else to eat though. You can work for yourself. And you have choices of who to work for and for how much. Taxation does not leave that choice.

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[Coinifyx]

This graphic says it all but the logic mostly generated by the capitalists class who are the ones "stealing" the surplus value in the first place.

Labor is voluntary.

This is where you are wrong 

It's not like people desire to eat, they must eat or they die, thus biological slavery brings people to forced labor

You don't have to work for someone else to eat though. You can work for yourself. And you have choices of who to work for and for how much. Taxation does not leave that choice.

What do you mean by "you can work for yourself"   

I'm hired = I get paid $1500 monthly salary
I work for "myself" = I get paid $1500 for a month of work

If others must pay for your labor, you are still subjected to the very same reality, you don't get paid more by yourself...the invention Gary Kildall sold to Bill Gates for $50k formed the foundation of Microsoft's billionaire empire. Taxation is the fee that the rich should pay for the resources he exploits and makes profits from and those taxes should be used to help everyone not to buy guns.

[BADecker]

This graphic says it all but the logic mostly generated by the capitalists class who are the ones "stealing" the surplus value in the first place.

Labor is voluntary.

This is where you are wrong 

It's not like people desire to eat, they must eat or they die, thus biological slavery brings people to forced labor

You don't have to work for someone else to eat though. You can work for yourself. And you have choices of who to work for and for how much. Taxation does not leave that choice.

What do you mean by "you can work for yourself"   

I'm hired = I get paid $1500 monthly salary
I work for "myself" = I get paid $1500 for a month of work

If others must pay for your labor, you are still subjected to the very same reality, you don't get paid more by yourself...the invention Gary Kildall sold to Bill Gates for $50k formed the foundation of Microsoft's billionaire empire. Taxation is the fee that the rich should pay for the resources he exploits and makes profits from and those taxes should be used to help everyone not to buy guns.

Taxes on the wealthy are simply passed on to the people who buy products and service from the rich. Taxing the rich is really taxing the people again.

[Coinifyx]

This graphic says it all but the logic mostly generated by the capitalists class who are the ones "stealing" the surplus value in the first place.

Labor is voluntary.

This is where you are wrong 

It's not like people desire to eat, they must eat or they die, thus biological slavery brings people to forced labor

You don't have to work for someone else to eat though. You can work for yourself. And you have choices of who to work for and for how much. Taxation does not leave that choice.

What do you mean by "you can work for yourself"   

I'm hired = I get paid $1500 monthly salary
I work for "myself" = I get paid $1500 for a month of work

If others must pay for your labor, you are still subjected to the very same reality, you don't get paid more by yourself...the invention Gary Kildall sold to Bill Gates for $50k formed the foundation of Microsoft's billionaire empire. Taxation is the fee that the rich should pay for the resources he exploits and makes profits from and those taxes should be used to help everyone not to buy guns.

Taxes on the wealthy are simply passed on to the people who buy products and service from the rich. Taxing the rich is really taxing the people again.

The rich is not alone on the market, if he raises the prices someone else will sell for lower

[BADecker]

Taxes on the wealthy are simply passed on to the people who buy products and service from the rich. Taxing the rich is really taxing the people again.

The rich is not alone on the market, if he raises the prices someone else will sell for lower

All that is, is, rich fighting against rich. People don't need the products of the rich. The land was made for everyone. The reason the rich are rich is, they have used the media to sell the people on the idea that they can provide their services better and cheaper than the people can make the same products and services.

However, when the people are being forced into taxation - which is simply a method that the rich use to force the people to buy more - it may not be beneficial for the people to accept the products of the rich any longer.

The beginnings of shutting out taxes are happening right now through the PMA (private membership association). A PMA is an organization that is private, thereby being outside the authority of government which exists to regulate the public... something like you and your spouse and your grandparents trading among yourselves without interference from government.

It may not have started yet, but when PMAs get to the point where they use crypto to barter among themselves, within their organizations, they will gradually squeeze government money and taxation right out of the picture. More and more people will join, just to avoid taxes. Being private, they will write it up in their rules that government cannot tax their trading... because government is public, not private.

I'm sure that government and the wealthy see this coming, and that they are doing everything they can to fight it. But for starters, Youtube search on "private membership association." Watch the top 3 videos. The flop of the greedy money system and taxes is coming.

[coins4commies]

This graphic says it all but the logic mostly generated by the capitalists class who are the ones "stealing" the surplus value in the first place.

Labor is voluntary.

This is where you are wrong 

It's not like people desire to eat, they must eat or they die, thus biological slavery brings people to forced labor

You don't have to work for someone else to eat though. You can work for yourself. And you have choices of who to work for and for how much. Taxation does not leave that choice.

What do you mean by "you can work for yourself"   

I'm hired = I get paid $1500 monthly salary
I work for "myself" = I get paid $1500 for a month of work

If others must pay for your labor, you are still subjected to the very same reality, you don't get paid more by yourself...the invention Gary Kildall sold to Bill Gates for $50k formed the foundation of Microsoft's billionaire empire. Taxation is the fee that the rich should pay for the resources he exploits and makes profits from and those taxes should be used to help everyone not to buy guns.

This is because the others have ammassed the capital and you don't have the capital.  The easy way around this would be to provide capital for people to work for themselves if they choose.  Submit a business plan and get capital.  Simple as that.  At that point, you have a society where working for others is not mandatory.

And government already provides capital to large companies.  We just call it infrastructure, subsidy, economic stimulus, or "creating jobs".

[Elwar]

When I was in Saigon there was free market enterprise just about anywhere (apparently the government didn't regulate the shit out of everything). There was no storefront that you passed that didn't have a business.

One old lady literally only had a pot and a bunson burner with a couple of very small plastic tables and chairs.

She cooked an amazing meal on the street corner for very cheap (about $2 for a meal that filled me up).

If you think you need someone else in order to have a job to live, you're doing it wrong.

[coins4commies]

When I was in Saigon there was free market enterprise just about anywhere (apparently the government didn't regulate the shit out of everything). There was no storefront that you passed that didn't have a business.

One old lady literally only had a pot and a bunson burner with a couple of very small plastic tables and chairs.

She cooked an amazing meal on the street corner for very cheap (about $2 for a meal that filled me up).

If you think you need someone else in order to have a job to live, you're doing it wrong.

Its almost as if your example involved some Marxist principals at work...

[Elwar]

Its almost as if your example involved some Marxist principals at work...

Marx doesn't believe in working for your capital. The state shall provide.

[Ciscopro2000]

Taxation can be excessive in certain parts of the world.  I look at it as the cost of doing business in a country.  If I don’t like how I’m being taxed, I can either vote or move somewhere else. 

[Elwar]

Taxation can be excessive in certain parts of the world.  I look at it as the cost of doing business in a country.  If I don’t like how I’m being taxed, I can either vote or move somewhere else. 

How does voting help?

[coins4commies]

Its almost as if your example involved some Marxist principals at work...

Marx doesn't believe in working for your capital. The state shall provide.

This is false.  I also think its pretty telling how your trip to Saigon revealed how much freedom there was.  The way you wrote that post made it look like you didn't know you were in a socialist country.  You pretty much backed yourself into an endorsement of Marxist values. 

  Were it not from many of the policies put forth by the Marxist government in Vietnam, people would be too poor to start these small businesses.  It turns out, that being able to easily afford the basics (thanks to price controls) frees people up to make the most out of other opportunities.  

[BADecker]

Its almost as if your example involved some Marxist principals at work...

Marx doesn't believe in working for your capital. The state shall provide.

This is false.  I also think its pretty telling how your trip to Saigon revealed how much freedom there was.  The way you wrote that post made it look like you didn't know you were in a socialist country.  You pretty much backed yourself into an endorsement of Marxist values. 

  Were it not from many of the policies put forth by the Marxist government in Vietnam, people would be too poor to start these small businesses.  It turns out, that being able to easily afford the basics (thanks to price controls) frees people up to make the most out of other opportunities.  

Right. To say it better, Marx doesn't believe in working for YOUR capital. Marx believes in working for the State's capital. Marx believes that you and your labor belong to the State. No freedom there... which is okay if that is what you want.

Just remember. It's easy to get in, but hard to get out.

[coins4commies]

Its almost as if your example involved some Marxist principals at work...

Marx doesn't believe in working for your capital. The state shall provide.

This is false.  I also think its pretty telling how your trip to Saigon revealed how much freedom there was.  The way you wrote that post made it look like you didn't know you were in a socialist country.  You pretty much backed yourself into an endorsement of Marxist values. 

  Were it not from many of the policies put forth by the Marxist government in Vietnam, people would be too poor to start these small businesses.  It turns out, that being able to easily afford the basics (thanks to price controls) frees people up to make the most out of other opportunities.  

Right. To say it better, Marx doesn't believe in working for YOUR capital. Marx believes in working for the State's capital. Marx believes that you and your labor belong to the State. No freedom there... which is okay if that is what you want.

Just remember. It's easy to get in, but hard to get out.

Perhaps you should actually read Marx because this quote makes it apparent that you never have.    PLEASE PLEASE read Engels or Marx before attributing baseless claims to their work.

"the executive of the modern state is nothing but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie."


"Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another."

"Man, at last the master of his own form of social organization, becomes at the same time the lord over Nature, his own master—free."

[BADecker]

Do you know what the publisher said to Isaac Asimov when he turned in some of his sci-fi manuscripts? They told him that bad people weren't as innocent as he made them out to be in his stories, and that he should become more realistic.

Marx was simply a puppet of criminals who liked the sound of his work. They could push his wonderful ideals onto an unsuspecting public flock of unsuspecting sheep. And they did. Then they became extremely wealthy off the flock.

I suggest reading between the lines of Marx a little. But that isn't as important as reading all around the outside, to see what really happened when Marxism was implemented.

[Elwar]

[PlasticIcescapades]

I don't think so. I mean we expect the government to provide certain things for us. And we measure a country's well being by how well they are able to use the resources they have.

Some argue that everyone should be able to take care of themselves through their own means. But, objectively, there will always be groups that are underprivileged and regardless of how much they try, won't be able to get out of the situation they find themselves in. That's just my opinion. It's not theft, but there should be a way to measure how the money is being spent and whether it's truly helpful.

[BADecker]

Before government came along, people took care of each other, and the various churches organized a lot of it. It was almost 100% volunteer work. Even if a church required a tithe, anybody could quit the church. But it is very difficult to quit the government and taxation.

[Coinifyx]

Before government came along, people took care of each other, and the various churches organized a lot of it. It was almost 100% volunteer work. Even if a church required a tithe, anybody could quit the church. But it is very difficult to quit the government and taxation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England

[walemil]

I think that taxation is a way to make you give back to the government and this varies in line with one's income. Some items are excused while tax payment is compulsory for some luxury items or goods. I consider taxation as stealing where the government deliberately misappropriated this taxpayers money.