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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26368592 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
8up
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August 21, 2015, 09:44:41 AM

Satoshi's vision originally was that eventually block subsidies and fees would likely not cover the costs of mining, but that institutions with an interest in keeping the network secure would spend funds to secure it. Even so, 10% of market cap yearly seems like an unreasonable cost. The end user must pay that in the end.

if bitcoin becomes the new reference standard (in 20 years+) there will be enough incentive to secure the network even if return is negative.
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August 21, 2015, 09:49:22 AM

When Alex talks, just shut up and listen. It's a great post and it deserved to be bumped.

So which is it? You want smaller block size so we only use bitcoin for settlements or you want people to be their own banks? You can't have both.

I'm just pointing out that even with not so many transactions, you don't simply "die" - and evidence of that is the marketcap and mobility of gold, because bitcoin is not simply a payment system, but also a store-of-wealth system.

BTC's transaction capacity was always small, and even with 8 or 32mb blocks, it's still small.

If just 10% of the global population used BTC, and they did an average of just 1 transaction per day, we'd need blocks larger than 1 GB.

Suppose we make it 1GB per block, to "scale". What will happen then? Will it "scale", or will it simply become unusable? It's a bullshit argument that "bigger is better" in this case. It isn't.

And what if we take the scenario of the entire population using it, with an avg of 2 tx per day, which requires >20gb per block?

Bitcoin will not scale to the level you want it to and definitely not by simply increasing the block size. It needs smart methods to do so.

The fact that BTC requires a lot of resources to scale, should make it expensive to use those resources. Seeing dust transactions that take up space for minimum fees, is already too painful to watch.

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This is like the people who worried that browsers would clog up internet traffic back in the early nineties. or  worries about picture files. or sound files. or video.  1TB hard drives are cheaper than a carton of cigarettes. Next year 10 TB drives will be.  It's a bullshit argument.

Nobody in the Elite would benefit from abusing network resources back then. However, the situation is different with the blockchain which, if you supply the tools to abuse it, it will be abused and bloated and rendered unusable.

Have you asked potential bitcoin users, whether they are interested in downloading TBs of blockchain before using it?

We'll send all these potential guys to use online wallets or online-based wallets, meaning a centralized ecosystem?

Besides, the cartel in the HDD industry, reminds me of the stagnation in the CPU industry after AMD lost the plot and Intel didn't rush things much in terms of evolution.

I think it was early 2011 when I bought my WD 1TB for like 60 euros, and it still costs nearly the same: I'm not seeing any serious price reduction. So HD prices don't scale as much as we'd like.

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The urgency isn't even in block size or scalability. The urgency is in fixing the goddamn decision-making process among the core devs.  You think Hearn was wrong about that?

Yes he was. There wasn't any urgency or crisis that demonstrated a breakdown of the decision-making process. The dev team acknowledged that scaling improvements can be done, they issued BIPs and were debating what's the best.

Is it some kind of best practices when someone comes along and says, yes, we'll do this, and if we don't, we'll fork it? 

If Hearn's dictatorship plan passes, there will be no core devs remaining to even have a decision process. I doubt any will stay to be ordered by the "dictatorship" of Andersen/Hearn. Who will maintain bitcoin then? Hearn -who isn't very active- and Andersen? That's not going to work and it's extremely bad for the future of Bitcoin.

In the end of the day, if you ask me what Bitcoin-dev-team will do the best for the currency, it's a no brainer that current core-devs are far better, active and responsible than XT's devs.
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August 21, 2015, 09:50:58 AM

Satoshi's vision originally was that eventually block subsidies and fees would likely not cover the costs of mining, but that institutions with an interest in keeping the network secure would spend funds to secure it. Even so, 10% of market cap yearly seems like an unreasonable cost. The end user must pay that in the end.

if bitcoin becomes the new reference standard (in 20 years+) there will be enough incentive to secure the network even if return is negative.

That still means resources expended. Someone must pay for it, and I doubt it's going to be an altruistic cabal of billionaire philantrophists redistributing their wealth by subsidizing blockchain security just for the hell of it.

I wonder, how does 10% costs over market cap compare to the banking industry?
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August 21, 2015, 10:02:31 AM

Coin
Explanation

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August 21, 2015, 10:13:09 AM

@rebuilder - a little bit off-topic. but anyways: we are slaves only to our own thinking. and this is the reason we want to put bitcoin/blockchain into existing concepts.

if bitcoin/blockchain catches on, it will turn the world upside down.

one implication might be, that we don't know how rich (billionaires = not even possible in bitcoin Wink and poor will be defined. money (also) was/is used for status porposes for quite a long time. imo "having time" will be the new 'rich'.

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I wonder, how does 10% costs over market cap compare to the banking industry?

despite the meta-philosophical aspects. your question is really interesting and should be investigated
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August 21, 2015, 10:16:00 AM

This makes everything clear.

"Permanently keeping the 1MB (anti-spam) restriction is a great idea ..."
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0
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August 21, 2015, 10:36:38 AM

This Gavin guy is worse for Btc than a 51% attack....
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August 21, 2015, 10:54:38 AM

I'm just pointing out that even with not so many transactions, you don't simply "die" - and evidence of that is the marketcap and mobility of gold, because bitcoin is not simply a payment system, but also a store-of-wealth system.
Gold is a store of wealth because it's a metal with very useful properties. If it were cheap everything made out of copper would be made out of gold instead, but there isn't enough gold to do all that, so it can never be cheap.

Bitcoin is only a store of wealth as long as it's the coin everyone uses. Intrinsically it's no better than the hundreds of other coins out there. If you cap it, it will no longer be the coin everyone uses, because caps by their very nature exclude people. So its value will fall, and whatever altcoin people start using instead will become the new dominant coin.

AlexGR is correct that bitcoin cannot scale to cover the entire global population, but it can scale much bigger than it is now, and if it does not, some other coin will.

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August 21, 2015, 10:59:13 AM


AlexGR is correct that bitcoin cannot scale to cover the entire global population, but it can scale much bigger than it is now, and if it does not, some other coin will.



Where's the upvote button?
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August 21, 2015, 11:02:39 AM

Coin
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Andre#
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August 21, 2015, 11:41:32 AM

Gold is a store of wealth because it's a metal with very useful properties. If it were cheap everything made out of copper would be made out of gold instead, but there isn't enough gold to do all that, so it can never be cheap.


Copper is a better conductor than gold, and it's lighter. Gold doesn't corrode. So only if you're concerned about corrosion, you'd go for gold. In all other cases, you go for copper. Hence, you'd expect gold to be cheaper than copper if both are equally abundant and gold isn't used as store of value.
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August 21, 2015, 12:02:29 PM

Coin
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August 21, 2015, 12:03:21 PM

This makes everything clear.

"Permanently keeping the 1MB (anti-spam) restriction is a great idea ..."
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0

this is excellent.

What many don't seem to grok is that the BIP process effectively guarantees the 1 MB hard limit because any small group of core devs or even a single coder gets basically veto power over any improvements he doesn't like as much as his own. Stalemate. It's like the council of Captains in Pirates of the Caribbean voting for themselves as Pirate King.  Then Jack Hearn Sparrow plays kingmaker by voting for Elizabeth Gavin Swan. Or vice versa. This metaphor is getting convoluted.

BitcoinXT is the best tool we have to break the gridlock. Even if it never comes close to achieving supermajority, if it lights a fire under the core dev's collective ass to come up with a viable alternative that scales, then that would be even better.

A bitcoin that is no longer directly accessible to the end user is no longer Bitcoin. Something else will replace it. Network effects didn't save Myspace.

Scale or die.
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August 21, 2015, 12:06:52 PM

where are the finex walls?
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August 21, 2015, 12:10:06 PM

Copper is a better conductor than gold, and it's lighter. Gold doesn't corrode. So only if you're concerned about corrosion, you'd go for gold. In all other cases, you go for copper. Hence, you'd expect gold to be cheaper than copper if both are equally abundant and gold isn't used as store of value.
I've been told by a metallurgist that for wire gold plated copper is best, but for things like pipes where you care about corrosion gold rules. Now compare the weight of the average pipe to the average wire and tell me again why gold should be cheaper.

You cannot use something as a store of value if it is not in fact valuable. If you could I would use my poo as a store of value and be a rich man.
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August 21, 2015, 12:13:16 PM

where are the finex walls?

They got eaten. Completely.
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August 21, 2015, 12:13:51 PM


You cannot use something as a store of value if it is not in fact valuable. If you could I would use my poo as a store of value and be a rich man.


If you could purchase a certified heap of Taylor Swift's dung along with a video of her producing it I think you'd probably do rather well in the long run.
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August 21, 2015, 12:18:03 PM

where are the finex walls?

They got eaten. Completely.
Thanks!!
I cant go on vacation, go mess!
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August 21, 2015, 12:27:31 PM


You cannot use something as a store of value if it is not in fact valuable. If you could I would use my poo as a store of value and be a rich man.


If you could purchase a certified heap of Taylor Swift's dung along with a video of her producing it I think you'd probably do rather well in the long run.
I'd sell it now. In the long run people will be saying "Taylor who?"
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August 21, 2015, 12:30:33 PM


You cannot use something as a store of value if it is not in fact valuable. If you could I would use my poo as a store of value and be a rich man.

How good is Bitcoin at conducting electricity?  Or is it great for making pipes?
No, but you can use it to buy drugs on the internet or place ads on Backpage.
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