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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26373761 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
JorgeStolfi
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August 18, 2015, 06:11:09 PM

Imagine if the ceo of an up and coming company was speaking to the media and said "I believe in this company and I'm putting my all into it, however I'm also selling stocks of my company and investing in others".

You have never looked at a typical quarterly financial report, or at any official website or document by a company directed at investors, I presume.
Even in the event that an attacker gains more than 50% of the network's computational power, only transactions sent by the attacker could be reversed or double-spent. The network would not be destroyed.
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fonsie
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August 18, 2015, 06:12:56 PM

is bitcoin dead or is it different this time? Undecided

bitcoin will be replaced by bitcoinXT, the better alt-coin has been staring us in the face all this time.

if BitcoinXT really succeeds then it will become Bitcoin.

would not be the first hard fork in the bitcoin history, as far I know
But, but,.... How is theymos going to decide which posts to remove? Should we put a special flag to our posts in that case?
billyjoeallen
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August 18, 2015, 06:21:07 PM

so if 250$ falls we are in "This time it's still not different, dump it!!" no?

$250 is just a number, Newbie.  We tried to hold $300 last winter by using too much leverage and triggered a margin call cascade.  Painful lesson learned. We're not gonna do that again.  No, our goal isn't to stop the plunge. It is just to slow it down.  As long as we're not dropping as fast as Crude oil, copper, Brazilian Real, or whatever the hell the currency is in Malasia, we're doing fine.  And we are outperforming a whole bunch of other assets and securities now.
hdbuck
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August 18, 2015, 06:22:30 PM

so if 250$ falls we are in "This time it's still not different, dump it!!" no?

$250 is just a number, Newbie.  We tried to hold $300 last winter by using too much leverage and triggered a margin call cascade.  Painful lesson learned. We're not gonna do that again.  No, our goal isn't to stop the plunge. It is just to slow it down.  As long as we're not dropping as fast as Crude oil, copper, Brazilian Real, or whatever the hell the currency is in Malasian airplane, we're doing fine.  And we are outperforming a whole bunch of other assets and securities now.

ftfy  Lips sealed
Cconvert2G36
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August 18, 2015, 06:24:21 PM
Last edit: August 18, 2015, 07:01:15 PM by Cconvert2G36

Wonder where we'd be without the benevolent bullwhale(s) support around $250.

I don't see XT as likely to result in a mass migration to XT and the death of Core, but it is a non-trivial way to vote for the direction you would like Bitcoin to develop. Hopefully it lights a fire under the core devs to come up with their own solution. Once core has some kind of scaling solution (not in 2020) I could see a majority of XT nodes switching back.

The "moderation" going on is frankly disgusting. How the hell can any compromise happen if you use force to make the opposing side of the debate just shut up?

Meni Rosenfeld has been added to Jeff Garzik in the Voice of Reason camp.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe
becoin
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August 18, 2015, 06:45:25 PM

The "moderation" going on is frankly disgusting. How the hell can any compromise happen if you use force make the opposing side of the debate just shut up?
Nobody is censoring you. You're free to register bitcoinxttalk.org and discuss XT altcoin in every way you like.
chromosoma
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August 18, 2015, 06:52:47 PM

Price is going down because the new mining technology was discovered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd8dvgErQ14

Sell your BTC before it is too late.
billyjoeallen
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August 18, 2015, 06:55:57 PM

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-18/germany-struggles-too-much-renewable-energy

So Germany has an electricity surplus, huh? I wonder what they could do with all that power...
sAt0sHiFanClub
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August 18, 2015, 06:56:50 PM

The "moderation" going on is frankly disgusting. How the hell can any compromise happen if you use force make the opposing side of the debate just shut up?
Nobody is censoring you. You're free to register bitcoinxttalk.org and discuss XT altcoin in every way you like.

You're missing the point. If the arguments against raising block size stood up to scrutiny, there would be no need for this suppression of the debate.

They don't. So now there is an orchestrated blacklisting of any dissenting voice from the blockstream narrative, with little more than vague screams of "Dear god! Think of the children!!" to justify it.

Strange thing is, the 1mb limit, coupled with the opening of blockchain to private chains would hit the hard core HODLlers here the worst. Being able to settle financial transactions on a private  chain with satoshi level tokens would wipe out any chance bitcoin would have at being a de facto currency for commerce.
coinpr0n
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August 18, 2015, 06:59:47 PM



Meni Rosenfeld has been added to Jeff Garzik in the Voice of Reason camp.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Agree. Actually quite pleasant to read.
JorgeStolfi
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August 18, 2015, 07:01:05 PM

Motivation of the "stress tests" now revealed: Coinwallet.eu has a wallet that computes the correct fee to get through their "tests".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/coinwallet-plans-bitcoin-dust-attack-september-create-30-day-transaction-backlog-1515981

Note that they plan another mega stress test for September.  

Someone should do a *real* spam attack on bitcoin, not like those stupid "stress tests" that use fixed fees. If BitcoinXT prevails and the block size limit is lifted to 8 MB in 2016, both "stress tests"  and real spam attacks will become 10 times more expensive.

To do a real spam attack, you pick a goal percentage of transactions that you want to delay, say 50%.  Then you start issuing spam transactions at such a rate and with such a fee that 50% of the legitimate transactions in the pool are kept out of the next block.  

Typically, when a new block is mined, there will be 450 kB of legitimate unconfirmed transactions in the pool.  To keep half of those out of the next block, it suffices to issue 775 kB of spam transactions, all with a fee F that is higher than the median of the fees in the pool.  The next block, if it is full, will take your 775 kB of spam and 225 kB of legit traffic, leaving the other 225 kB  on the pool.  Then, you must issue quickly another 775 kB of spam with that fee F, and keep adding more spam, with increasing fees if needed, as more legit transactions arrive, so that the top 1 MB of the pool will include at most 225 kB of legit traffic.  

The average capacity of the network is less than 1 MB every 10 minutes, because there are many empty blocks even when there is a backlog in the pool.  Thus, on average, it may be enough to issue only 575 kB of spam every 10 minutes, rather than 775 kB, if you are able to guess the required fees exactly.  

You keep doing that until your budget is exhausted.  During that attack, a backlog of legit traffic will develop in the pool (mixed with some spam), growing by at least 225 kB of legit traffic every 10 minutes.  If your budget is enough to keep up that attack for one day (144 blocks), the backlog will then clear ay the rate of ~300 kB every 10 minutes; so the legit transactions alone will take at least ~100 blocks to clear.  The average delay for the transactions that had the bad luck of being below the median will then be ~20 hours (instead of the ~10 minutes of normal conditions).

The fee-adjusting tools that have been proposed by the Blockstream devs, to be used in the "fee market", woudl make this atack much cheaper.  inevitably, some of yous spam will end up in the backlog, with fees that are smaller than most of the legit traffic there.  So, instead of issuing new spam transactions with increasing fees, you could use Peter Todd's replace-by-fee feature to re-issue the spam of yours that is in the pool.  

To foil this attack, everybody would have to raise their fees so high and so fast that the attacker will run out of funds after a few blocks.  I am too lazy to compute now what would be a suitable Branson-level fee.  

Another solution is for everybody to use a smart wallet that picks a fee that is guaranteed to be above the median of the fees picked by all other clients using that same smart wallet.  But I think there may be some obscure technical obstacles to that approach.
ChartBuddy
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August 18, 2015, 07:03:17 PM

Coin
Explanation

sAt0sHiFanClub
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August 18, 2015, 07:20:15 PM

 The average delay for the transactions that had the bad luck of being below the median will then be ~20 hours (instead of the ~10 minutes of normal conditions).

A bit short of the 30 day target, no?

Quote from: JorgeStolfi
The fee-adjusting tools that have been proposed by the Blockstream devs, to be used in the "fee market", woudl make this atack much cheaper.

I told you they were evil!!!   Grin
barbs
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August 18, 2015, 07:49:30 PM

sub 250 on bitfinex will be interesting!
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August 18, 2015, 08:03:06 PM

Coin
Explanation

ghandi
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August 18, 2015, 08:07:23 PM

Break through attempt on finex in the making...~4800coins so far...
Fatman3001
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August 18, 2015, 08:08:45 PM

Ouch! Such pain in my bitcoin wallet!
TerraMaster
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August 18, 2015, 08:09:34 PM

Slip slid'n away.... heading back to 228-230 again?  Cry

Leave for a few hours and come back and its dropped another 5 bucks...
derpinheimer
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August 18, 2015, 08:12:14 PM

Megadump on BFX  Shocked
Fatman3001
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August 18, 2015, 08:13:02 PM

Dump on finex hit 13k.

Slip slid'n away.... heading back to 228-230 again?  Cry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dx5QQfWRuU

Edit: 15k, lets hope there are some longs getting closed in there.
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