Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[JayJuanGee]

Are you saying that you don't understand leaving everything as it is and let the free fee market do its job?

We should probably take this to a different thread, I'm already feeling guilty about going off on this tangent here. But quickly:

We already didn't 'leave everything as it is'. This is an entirely artificial system with a number of arbitary design choices. The 1MB block limit is an obvious example, and wasn't even originally intended to serve an economic function beyond limiting spam. It's not needed for a fee market: as block subsidy decreases fees must increase or miners will shut off. Thus, when the block subsidy is insufficient to pay for mining costs, miners are incentivized to require fees in order to accept transactions.

If you say X is the amount of transactions the network should, at most, be able to handle, you're making a policy decision. If you say there should be no limit and miners should decide whether they want to include 0-fee transactions, you're also making a policy decision. You can't pretend one is more of a "free market" solution than the other.

The network is considered roughly secure against economically sensible attacks when the cost of an attack is greater than the profit gained.In rough terms, the greater [network value] / [cost to gain 51% of hashrate] is, the less secure the network becomes. To increase security, you need to either decrease network value or increase the cost of gaining a percentage of hashrate. Both the small-blocks and large-blocks solutions essentially hope that a balance is naturally found where the cost of running the network doesn't hamper usage to the point that fees and subsidies aren't sufficient to provide security.

I don't have a solution here, but I think we're turning a blind eye to this issue of security vs. cost when that's the real question that needs addressing.

hahahahahaha

Why move to another thread when this one allows for all topics quasi-bitcoin related, and since the bitcoin is the world, there is NEARlY NO topic that is not covered by its magnanimous glory.

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[Richy_T]

He can wait forever, if he does not want to pay a damned fee for the service.
The free shit party is happening in some other place.

What's a fair price for the last seat on a lifeboat on the Titanic?

Then what if I told you there were a bunch of other lifeboats but we're keeping them back because we think there should be a fee "market?"

Edited to add the quotes around "market"

[Richy_T]

Still, it's full of geniuses lamenting the scarcity of the blockspace and the consequent fees, ignoring that economics is all about scarcities.
And since that's way too much ignoring, they must be trolls for hire.

There is scarcity and then there is artificial scarcity. One is a natural consequence of the laws of physics, the other is typically someone trying to screw others over.

[Cconvert2G36]

-snip-

If you say X is the amount of transactions the network should, at most, be able to handle, you're making a policy decision. If you say there should be no limit and miners should decide whether they want to include 0-fee transactions, you're also making a policy decision. You can't pretend one is more of a "free market" solution than the other.

No need to pretend. If there is any policy decision involved... it is a decision to allow the free market of transaction processors to determine their production levels while taking into account their costs/competition/and network health as a whole (a miner's success is nearly synonymous with the success of Bitcoin). Make huge blocks that take forever to verify and your chance of being orphaned goes up, denying you income. That's the free market at work. Bloat the chain to the point that the node network is in a handful of datacenters... confidence in the protection of decentralization is lost, value of your revenue plummets... free market incentives again.

The network is considered roughly secure against economically sensible attacks when the cost of an attack is greater than the profit gained.In rough terms, the greater [network value] / [cost to gain 51% of hashrate] is, the less secure the network becomes. To increase security, you need to either decrease network value or increase the cost of gaining a percentage of hashrate. Both the small-blocks and large-blocks solutions essentially hope that a balance is naturally found where the cost of running the network doesn't hamper usage to the point that fees and subsidies aren't sufficient to provide security.

I don't have a solution here, but I think we're turning a blind eye to this issue of security vs. cost when that's the real question that needs addressing.

I take issue with your use of [network value]. What's the point of spending $100 million (probably much more) to end up killing the golden goose? Mutually assured destruction is at work here, for both of these issues. Satoshi understood free market incentives, he designed the system around them, we should let them work.

[Dotto]

Seems the bitch is going north again.

We all know how this ends














cought, CCMF, cought

[Meuh6879]

http://media.giphy.com/media/MQrk4KZPIOIGk/giphy.gif (jissss, fucking 1Mb limit ...)

[rebuilder]

I take issue with your use of [network value]. What's the point of spending $100 million (probably much more) to end up killing the golden goose?

If an attacker would profit from destroying the network's credibility (governments potentially), that kind of spending would make sense. For protection against double spends, yes, we're pretty solid. In fact, it would seem we're spending way more than need be on security if that is our only concern.

[Richy_T]

Seems the bitch is going north again.

We all know how this ends

With pudding?

[Wandererfromthenorth]

Lambie, face it, BTC price is rising and so is your cognitive dissonance.

[yefi]

We're currently paying ~10% of the network's worth, per year, to secure it. In other words, we're paying $1 to store $10 for a year.

1. Is this optimal?
2. If a bank charged you 10%, yearly, to store your money, would you use it?

3. What does it matter? They use to pay $1 to store $1. If that wasn't sufficient discouragement, $1 for $10 sure isn't.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[AlexGR]

I'm not sure the rationale is entirely accurate.

Bitcoin is a new currency so the monetary base must be distributed in some way (miners getting the coins generated). Increased inflation at the start is one way to do that but it is understood the emission will be cut /2 every 4 years.

[Hyperjacked]

Dear Nazi Wannabe Trailer Trash peonminer:
'Government bonds' and 'Taxes' are not one and the same.  Ofc, I wouldn't expect you to know this, living on the dole like you do

Just another way of telling your buddy (The US govn't and its people) you are controlled by the Federal Reserve. The 'bonds' are the 'tax' for using the toilet paper jew confetti. Please reference my post owning you, here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg13260184#msg13260184 ; You wouldn't know that though, because you are too politically correct about every tiny aspect, that you have Uncle Sam's big toe permanently affixed to the inside of your lips. Tell me, if I give you $1, and you give me a 'bond' to pay $1.20 back at the end of the year, where will the $.20 come from? Me. When I print more money. Which has more debt attached. Which makes you my slave. You little cunt bitch.

/fin

/ignores

Why bother discussing anything with this shill with hundreds of newbie accounts ? It like beating your head against the wall...

[Wyld]

I've got a bitfinex trading question maybe someone could help me out with.

Say I've got a margin long open from 430, and I went to sell it at 465. Right now it seems like all I can do is 'close' which sets up a market sell at whatever point I hit close at. Instead I'd like to set it up to sell whenever someone buys into it at 465. Can I do this somehow?

ty ty ty

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Bitcoin Foundation board members Jim Harper and Olivier Janssens have resigned and been removed from the trade organization, respectively, following a disagreement over the future of the advocacy group.

http://www.coindesk.com/harper-janssens-exit-bitcoin-foundation/

"They wanted everyone to start raising money, so they could come up with a plan. I said I'm not comfortable to raise money UNTIL we have a plan," Janssens wrote in a Reddit post.

"The truth is that the foundation is pretty much dead. They will try to keep it going just for the name and ego, but they have no support left with the community," he wrote.

[gotmilk_]

MMM buying all the coins  

I've got a bitfinex trading question maybe someone could help me out with.

Say I've got a margin long open from 430, and I went to sell it at 465. Right now it seems like all I can do is 'close' which sets up a market sell at whatever point I hit close at. Instead I'd like to set it up to sell whenever someone buys into it at 465. Can I do this somehow?

ty ty ty

Just place a margin limit sell at wanted price  

[Fatman3001]

Guberment Jooz never brainwashed me in their commie Jew schools. I escaped! To huff Sweet Leaded Gasoline of Freedom!
Now I uses pottymouth words like 'cunt' and 'bitch' because I'm very edgy.'

You know it. Some serious daddy issues, too...
Still, no reason to be upset, trailer trash

He's just angry because of that shitcoin of his, Sprouts...

I guess that's the jews too...

Has this place always been Stormfront lite?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Lambie, face it, BTC price is rising and so is your cognitive dissonance.
[img gif from tumblr img]

No denying it, but I'm sure glad I got out when I did. Price is just one aspect of this shitshow, you gotta consider the whole mise-en-scene thingamabob. Worrying about money on shady exchanges, worrying about taxes, regulations, worrying BTC getting B&.
As P. Pig had once so eloquently put it, "wuh..w.w.worry, w..w..worry, wuh..wu.worry!"

You worry too much.

[Wyld]

thanks gotmilk, wasn't sure if that would open up a new margin short which I didn't want to do, just close my long. appreciate it!

[rebuilder]

Has this place always been Stormfront lite?

Put it this way, back in 2011 I bought coffee from someone here who, I later noticed, professed to be a vehemently anti-racist white separatist. I didn't even know there *were* white separatists before that. Also had to look up the word 'miscegenation', my grade school latin didn't include that word.