Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[cofefeGandalf]

Of course, the world has not yet seen a blockchain that has been battle-tested, that does not reward the maintainers in a native token. So there's that. What's the incentive?

Unless someone solves this problem in the realm of game theory, it is impossible.  This is one of the absolute foundational pillars for the stability of bitcoin the removal of which would create a sort of 2 legged stool.

...
Will there be a mass realization that blockchain without bitcoin is just a slow, shitty database? How long will this realization take?
...

I wonder about that, too. Most crypto people I know from meat space think some "newer, better" coin will supersede bitcoin, yet most don't know how bitcoin or any of the alts actually work.

What they also don't get is that if bitcoin was replaced by something newer, more shiny (assuming such a thing would exist), then not only would bitcoin be pointless but also the new shiny coin, and every next shiny coin down the line.

It's either bitcoin, hooks into bitcoin, or it's a parasite sucking on bitcoins success.

[infofront]

I heard a bitcoin maximalist somewhere make an interesting point recently. He said if you support any altcoin (or bitcoin fork), you're essentially supporting the continuation of the legacy fiat currency system, as you're supporting the printing of money out of thin air.

[gentlemand]

https://omniexplorer.info/address/3MbYQMMmSkC3AgWkj9FMo5LsPTW1zBTwXL

Tether funbux time again. But let's ignore that the last time they created a bunch the price went down the toilet.

[Torque]

I heard a bitcoin maximalist somewhere make an interesting point recently. He said if you support any altcoin (or bitcoin fork), you're essentially supporting the continuation of the legacy fiat currency system, as you're supporting the printing of money out of thin air.

That's sort of true, in that the fallacy exists that either (fiat or altcoin) has value the moment it is birthed. Just because something has a trade-able fiat price doesn't mean it actually has any value (just look at the penny stock market, or a company like Tesla lol).

But more importantly, if you support the altcoin market, you are also supporting the very (only?) mechanism that the establishment is maliciously exploiting and leveraging to slow down and attempt to strangle Bitcoin mass adoption - in its crib.

To do that, all they have to do is sew the seeds of confusion by creating tens of 1000s of coins and marketing them to the mass public "as all on the same level/playing field". Which is exactly what they did.

[cAPSLOCK]

I heard a bitcoin maximalist somewhere make an interesting point recently. He said if you support any altcoin (or bitcoin fork), you're essentially supporting the continuation of the legacy fiat currency system, as you're supporting the printing of money out of thin air.

I think this is sort of apt.  Especially if you believe POW is the best form of securing a blockchain.

Because there is a limited amount of energy and resources to pour into proof of work it can be surmised that the security of blockchain networks is the sum total of the hashpower behind ALL of POW cryptocurrencies.  And to the extent we assign VALUE to the tokens on a competing blockchain, and hashpower to go along with it we are just minting more "bitcoin" in the broadest sence.

One reason we maximalists (yes, I am yet another Monero shill who calls himself a BTC maximalist* ) cringe so hard when the topic of BCASH comes up is it is, among other things, one of the most directly Bitcoin diluting projects in every way.  At 1/6th the price of BTC it has effectively minted another 3.5MM Bitcoins.  And steals hashpower and value from the actual Bitcoin chain (while trying to coopt the name, and history of Bitcoin at the same time, bastards).

So yes.  The vast, vast, vast majority of altcoin projects are a direct or indirect attack on Bitcoin.

However there is value in those chains.  For example ETH teaches us LOTS of important lessons.  It has shown us what a ginormous attack surface can do.  It is also showing us what happens when you have an actual KING driving the "consensus".  I remember that time that Buterin, with all the grace of a 6 year old threatened to "leave the project" if certain things didn't change.   Can you imagine what a clusterfuck Bitcoin would be if Satoshi had stuck around?  Even if he (or Vitalik for that matter) had the purest of motives, corruption would creep up in some form or another and poison the well.

ETH may survive just because of first mover in the whole programmable aspect.  But Bitcoin adding things like RSK on *LAYER TWO* where it's much safer and does not touch the base protocol might just give ETH the reverse flippening with full ironic glory.

In fact the virtuous black hole of BITCOIN (BTC) will suck up all its bastard children in the end.  Perhaps leaving a handful of favorites to fulfill parallel functions in harmony with big daddy BTC.  What I don't know is how far along the path of sucking up all the meaningless paper-government-scrip-garbage BTC will have traveled before it turns on it's prodigal sons.

*this is not the place to discuss my reasons for making a fairly glaring exception for Monero to my above maximalist screed.  And, if fact, I hold a bit of cognitive dissonance against the fact I do make that exception.  But I have my reasons... if you care what they are feel free to ask me outside of here.

[El duderino_]

short PUMP lets hold on and see whats gonna happen this weekend 

[realr0ach]

I heard a bitcoin maximalist somewhere make an interesting point recently. He said if you support any altcoin (or bitcoin fork), you're essentially supporting the continuation of the legacy fiat currency system, as you're supporting the printing of money out of thin air.

Which makes absolutely no sense.  It's people making up lies to try and hide the fact there is no valid Schelling point in cryptocurrency, while there is one for the noble metals silver and gold.  In other words, people will be funneled into those assets whether they want to or not, while with cryptocurrency, every single variable about them is composed of completely arbitrary magic numbers that are not inherently needed or objectively good, and anyone can just come along and release a new one that's slightly different and claim it's 0.001% better than the last ad infinitum.

Or to look at it from a more cynical manner, you could claim every type of monetary instrument is some sort of pyramid scheme whether it's fiat, silver, gold, or bitcoin.  So how does one get other people to buy into your pyramid scheme?  With fiat it's force.  With silver and gold it's because the noble metals have the most exemplary traits of money available to humans and it requires two neutron stars colliding to make them, so humans are unable to counterfeit them.  Due to those fundamentals and inability to be counterfeited, the invisible hand of the market then guides everyone into them creating your Schelling point.

The fact cryptocurrencies are made of arbitrary, magic numbers based on artificial scarcity, and any human can counterfeit a new cryptocurrency in their basement, means they're completely useless as anything other than a transmission vehicle while the actual token is worthless.  It's similar to when the govt issued paper notes where the note could be redeemed for metals.   The notes were simply receipts - transmission vehicles; they had no value at all.  All you're really doing with bitcoin is recreating the 1971 Nixon moment when the real money was detached from the paper transmission vehicle and people are left holding valueless receipts.  I would know, my grandfather worked for Nixon.

[mymenace]

Of course, the world has not yet seen a blockchain that has been battle-tested, that does not reward the maintainers in a native token. So there's that. What's the incentive?

Unless someone solves this problem in the realm of game theory, it is impossible.  This is one of the absolute foundational pillars for the stability of bitcoin the removal of which would create a sort of 2 legged stool.

...
Will there be a mass realization that blockchain without bitcoin is just a slow, shitty database? How long will this realization take?
...

I wonder about that, too. Most crypto people I know from meat space think some "newer, better" coin will supersede bitcoin, yet most don't know how bitcoin or any of the alts actually work.

What they also don't get is that if bitcoin was replaced by something newer, more shiny (assuming such a thing would exist), then not only would bitcoin be pointless but also the new shiny coin, and every next shiny coin down the line.

It's either bitcoin, hooks into bitcoin, or it's a parasite sucking on bitcoins success.

As data grows so does network capabilities and data communications

This was inherently known in the building of bitcoin.

Mathematically at some point the blockchain will be a see all and do all at any point in time instantly for any app based tool.

So far so good

blockchain.info

check out your wallet address balance

you gotta beat the bitcoin blockchain test base (9years, hacked to the nth degree - no success) before anything will supercede bitcoin

and the wealthy know it



The currency war continues

Flood with alt shitcoins - The new USD coin/ripple/bcash/ethereum (centralized crap)

and get peeps movin a way from the gold

[realr0ach]

Mathematically at some point the blockchain will be a see all and do all at any point in time instantly for any app based tool.

The only thing mathematically certain about bitcoin is that transaction validators are mathematically designed to centralize, and that means it's mathematically certain to be a permissioned ledger where the rulers ruling over you can do anything they want, from blacklisting all your funds, to slipping in things like chain anchor, to altering coin count and anything else.  If you wish to be ruled over and be someone's bitch in a dystopian technocracy, then bitcoin is for you. If not, there is silver and gold.

[mymenace]

Mathematically at some point the blockchain will be a see all and do all at any point in time instantly for any app based tool.

The only thing mathematically certain about bitcoin is that transaction validators are mathematically designed to centralize, and that means it's mathematically certain to be a permissioned ledger where the rulers ruling over you can do anything they want, from blacklisting all your funds, to slipping in things like chain anchor, to altering coin count and anything else.  If you wish to be ruled over and be someone's bitch in a dystopian technocracy, then bitcoin is for you. If not, there is silver and gold.

Good one

Problem the same transaction validators were used on gold and silver a long long long time ago (Welcome to the already dystopian technocracy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102


I agree with you, nothing is safe

to me bitcoin is the most decentralized market (slowly disappearing) I have ever seen

best shot for me to win


as always "Diversify Assets"


It has a double meaning

"and get peeps movin a way from the gold"

[realr0ach]

Mathematically at some point the blockchain will be a see all and do all at any point in time instantly for any app based tool.

The only thing mathematically certain about bitcoin is that transaction validators are mathematically designed to centralize, and that means it's mathematically certain to be a permissioned ledger where the rulers ruling over you can do anything they want, from blacklisting all your funds, to slipping in things like chain anchor, to altering coin count and anything else.  If you wish to be ruled over and be someone's bitch in a dystopian technocracy, then bitcoin is for you. If not, there is silver and gold.

Good one

Problem the same transaction validators were used on gold and silver a long long long time ago (Welcome to the already dystopian technocracy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

I agree with you, nothing is safe

The trading with the enemy act where "THE CORPORATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" declared inhabitants of North America as enemies of the state is not a transaction validator.  Unlike shitcoins, metals don't have transaction validators! (aka middlemen)

[mymenace]

Mathematically at some point the blockchain will be a see all and do all at any point in time instantly for any app based tool.

The only thing mathematically certain about bitcoin is that transaction validators are mathematically designed to centralize, and that means it's mathematically certain to be a permissioned ledger where the rulers ruling over you can do anything they want, from blacklisting all your funds, to slipping in things like chain anchor, to altering coin count and anything else.  If you wish to be ruled over and be someone's bitch in a dystopian technocracy, then bitcoin is for you. If not, there is silver and gold.

Good one

Problem the same transaction validators were used on gold and silver a long long long time ago (Welcome to the already dystopian technocracy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

I agree with you, nothing is safe

The trading with the enemy act where "THE CORPORATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" declared inhabitants of North America as enemies of the state is not a transaction validator.  Metals don't have transaction validators! (aka middlemen)

Its ok you can believe that.

Millions of us no longer follow the narrative or laws of most of 20th century laws and history (made in fear to monopolize and centralize the economy)


Quote that all you want we believe and will always believe the centralization of all stocks and commodities in the 20th century and the fact remains The US government 1933 stole the gold from its people, The US federal reserve 2008 stole the cash from the its people.


So now they can all go away.

[realr0ach]

Its ok you can believe that.

Millions of us no longer follow the narrative or laws of most of 20th century laws and history (made in fear to monopolize and centralize the economy)

So now they can all go away.

So your plan to defeat the (((rulers))) is to use a system that has built-in, rent seeking middlemen residing over every transaction that you must pay a ransom fee to transact, while also asking them permission to transact at all, and simultaneously deleting the 5th amendment where anything you do is evidence against you by default, instead of using silver and gold which has none of these problems?  You're trying to con people into believing dystopia is utopia.

[mymenace]

Its ok you can believe that.

Millions of us no longer follow the narrative or laws of most of 20th century laws and history (made in fear to monopolize and centralize the economy)

So now they can all go away.

So your plan to defeat the (((rulers))) is to use a system that has built-in, rent seeking middlemen residing over every transaction that you must pay a ransom fee to transact, while also asking them permission to transact at all, and simultaneously deleting the 5th amendment where anything you do is evidence against you by default, instead of using silver and gold which has none of these problems?  You're trying to con people into believing dystopia is utopia.

As much fun as it is to play the narrative going here.

Your projecting and baiting.

Step it up a bit it might get interesting.



Come on, its easy when you see it - we both talking about the same thing....

[coralreefer]

I'm looking forward to a day when people stop quoting roach so we don't have to see his comments in quotes...it kind of defeats the purpose of the ignore button 

[bitcoinPsycho]

I'm looking forward to a day when people stop quoting roach so we don't have to see his comments in quotes...it kind of defeats the purpose of the ignore button  

[Torque]

I'm looking forward to a day when people stop quoting roach so we don't have to see his comments in quotes...it kind of defeats the purpose of the ignore button  

But...

[buyandhold]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/8kefgt/rfluffyponyza_wearing_a_884k_watch_at_consensus/
"Don't buy monero"

[ccminer.net]

so are we going to moon soon

[El duderino_]

so are we going to moon soon