Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[NewLiberty]

Interesting read:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto&_r=1&

Even more interesting though, are the comments of the readers. Am I the only one here that thinks that Krugman is paid to stand for fiat money? His arguments find me completely indifferent.

I have had and am continuing to have a dialogue with smart technologists who are very high on BitCoin — but when I try to get them to explain to me why BitCoin is a reliable store of value, they always seem to come back with explanations about how it’s a terrific medium of exchange. Even if I buy this (which I don’t, entirely), it doesn’t solve my problem. And I haven’t been able to get my correspondents to recognize that these are different questions.

Heh... probably talking to the wrong people (intentionally that is...).

He's also fundamentally missing it.  A part of why it is a reliable store of value is connected to the value of it being a terrific medium of exchange.  By carving out parts of his interlocutor's response categorically, shows that he hasn't taken a close enough look at it.

It is reliable.
It creates a public record of trade.  Stored for posterity.
By using it we enter into these records.  It connects us to each other.
It is fundamentally better in many important ways, even for governments, than what governments are getting from the central bankers.  If that isn't valuable, what is?

[MAbtc]

How do we avoid the image block? It makes drawing lines on charts less appealing this way.

[macsga]

Interesting read:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto&_r=1&

Even more interesting though, are the comments of the readers. Am I the only one here that thinks that Krugman is paid to stand for fiat money? His arguments find me completely indifferent.

I have had and am continuing to have a dialogue with smart technologists who are very high on BitCoin — but when I try to get them to explain to me why BitCoin is a reliable store of value, they always seem to come back with explanations about how it’s a terrific medium of exchange. Even if I buy this (which I don’t, entirely), it doesn’t solve my problem. And I haven’t been able to get my correspondents to recognize that these are different questions.

Heh... probably talking to the wrong people (intentionally that is...).

He's also fundamentally missing it.  A part of why it is a reliable store of value is connected to the value of it being a terrific medium of exchange.  By carving out parts of his interlocutor's response categorically, shows that he hasn't taken a close enough look at it.

It is reliable.
It creates a public record of trade.  Stored for posterity.
By using it we enter into these records.  It connects us to each other.
It is fundamentally better in many important ways, even for governments, than what governments are getting from the central bankers.  If that isn't valuable, what is?

My best reason would be "impossible to create money out of thin air". But he's all about "Federal Reserve’s role as actual dollar source, and its commitment not to allow deflation to happen." I mean WTF? Is he for real? They CONTROL the thing! Oh well...

[ChartBuddy]

[sickpig]

How do we avoid the image block? It makes drawing lines on charts less appealing this way.

Image block? ChartBuddy is kicking asses again, no?

I think it's a matter of which kind of img format you're going to use. avoid gif, use png and you should be safe.

[CryptStorm]

Hey guys,

This link looks great-- learning to trade in a simulator (sandbox). I haven't made an account, yet, but am looking forward ot it, and think that many folks here, especially the more junior or risk concerned, might enjoy and benefit from these experiences.

https://www.bitsim.net/

[MAbtc]

How do we avoid the image block? It makes drawing lines on charts less appealing this way.

Image block? ChartBuddy is kicking asses again, no?

I think it's a matter of which kind of img format you're going to use. avoid gif, use png and you should be safe.

Hmmm, png and jpg blocked for me... only tried imgur though...

[DieJohnny]

Long term perspective is generally even more difficult to predict. Based on how peak/correction cycles played out historically, I would be extremely surprised if we've already seen the end of the correction. Late January/Early February is more likely based on how previous corrections played out wrt time. Price targets are difficult because it all depends on whether the December 18 low was really the bottom, or just an intermediate step in a larger more forceful downtrend, or alternatively, a long drawn out decline. I still see the possibility that daily SMA100 was active as support on that crash, and the final capitulation will be higher than the low of December 18, but that's not a strong conviction I hold, at best an informed guess.

It doesn't seem like you've factored in the kinds of changes - "mass-adoption" (or at least evolving mass-awareness thanks to increased media coverage), developing services, etc. - that have led to some calling this the "tipping point" for Bitcoin. Of course it is impossible to give precise mathematical indicators in this respect but qualitatively speaking things are not the same now as they were historically. That said, the December 18 low of $450 fits well in comparison with history.

We are nowhere close to mass adoption, not by a long shot. I just spent dinner with my extended family where there were five middle aged wealthy men attending (not overly wealthy, just have nice jobs, equity in their homes,  investments, et cetera). Not a single one of them knew anything more than Bitcoin by name. NONE of them were interested at all in investing in Bitcoin, too risky, too strange, to difficult to even understand for them.

I spent 15 minutes discussing Bitcoin with the most open minded of the bunch. He wanted to know what he would do to even buy a single coin. Holy crap, what method was I going to suggest to this guy who can barely get Skype to work correctly. I chose a paper wallet and Local Bitcoins. He thought it was reasonable, however, i could tell by the look in his eyes there was no way in Hell he was going to invest a single dollar any time soon.

The masses ARE NOT early adopters, they will not do research, take a chance, learn about digital wallets, trust some web site exchange or anything of the sort. If it isn't offered by their broker, or banker, or something they can buy at the local Gold dealer, then they are not interested. BITCOIN right now seems a world away from this mass adoption. A WORLD AWAY.

We are still in speculative, niche phase that has a long way to go to play out. It is the biggest reason Bitcoin can fail because if another Crypto steps in and solves these access problems look out. Guys like those in my family DO NOT care about the virtues of Bitcoin's distributed, non-regulated, anti-govt protocol. They will invest in the first thing that is 1) accessible 2) available to them through standard channels 3) endorsed by things they trust: banks, govts, large companies.

That said the price may go to $2000 in the next month , or $200....

[mskryxz]

Long term perspective is generally even more difficult to predict. Based on how peak/correction cycles played out historically, I would be extremely surprised if we've already seen the end of the correction. Late January/Early February is more likely based on how previous corrections played out wrt time. Price targets are difficult because it all depends on whether the December 18 low was really the bottom, or just an intermediate step in a larger more forceful downtrend, or alternatively, a long drawn out decline. I still see the possibility that daily SMA100 was active as support on that crash, and the final capitulation will be higher than the low of December 18, but that's not a strong conviction I hold, at best an informed guess.

It doesn't seem like you've factored in the kinds of changes - "mass-adoption" (or at least evolving mass-awareness thanks to increased media coverage), developing services, etc. - that have led to some calling this the "tipping point" for Bitcoin. Of course it is impossible to give precise mathematical indicators in this respect but qualitatively speaking things are not the same now as they were historically. That said, the December 18 low of $450 fits well in comparison with history.

We are nowhere close to mass adoption, not by a long shot. I just spent dinner with my extended family where there were five middle aged wealthy men attending (not overly wealthy, just have nice jobs, equity in their homes,  investments, et cetera). Not a single one of them knew anything more than Bitcoin by name. NONE of them were interested at all in investing in Bitcoin, too risky, too strange, to difficult to even understand for them.

I spent 15 minutes discussing Bitcoin with the most open minded of the bunch. He wanted to know what he would do to even buy a single coin. Holy crap, what method was I going to suggest to this guy who can barely get Skype to work correctly. I chose a paper wallet and Local Bitcoins. He thought it was reasonable, however, i could tell by the look in his eyes there was no way in Hell he was going to invest a single dollar any time soon.

The masses ARE NOT early adopters, they will not do research, take a chance, learn about digital wallets, trust some web site exchange or anything of the sort. If it isn't offered by their broker, or banker, or something they can buy at the local Gold dealer, then they are not interested. BITCOIN right now seems a world away from this mass adoption. A WORLD AWAY.

We are still in speculative, niche phase that has a long way to go to play out. It is the biggest reason Bitcoin can fail because if another Crypto steps in and solves these access problems look out. Guys like those in my family DO NOT going to care about the virtues of Bitcoin's distributed, non-regulated, anti-govt protocol. They will invest in the first thing that is 1) accessible 2) available to them through standard channels 3) endorsed by things they trust: banks, govts, large companies.

That said the price may go to $2000 in the next month , or $200....

agree

need someone to make bitcoin idiot proof and attract the masses

[windjc]

Long term perspective is generally even more difficult to predict. Based on how peak/correction cycles played out historically, I would be extremely surprised if we've already seen the end of the correction. Late January/Early February is more likely based on how previous corrections played out wrt time. Price targets are difficult because it all depends on whether the December 18 low was really the bottom, or just an intermediate step in a larger more forceful downtrend, or alternatively, a long drawn out decline. I still see the possibility that daily SMA100 was active as support on that crash, and the final capitulation will be higher than the low of December 18, but that's not a strong conviction I hold, at best an informed guess.

It doesn't seem like you've factored in the kinds of changes - "mass-adoption" (or at least evolving mass-awareness thanks to increased media coverage), developing services, etc. - that have led to some calling this the "tipping point" for Bitcoin. Of course it is impossible to give precise mathematical indicators in this respect but qualitatively speaking things are not the same now as they were historically. That said, the December 18 low of $450 fits well in comparison with history.

We are nowhere close to mass adoption, not by a long shot. I just spent dinner with my extended family where five middle aged wealthy men (not overly wealthy, just have nice jobs, equity in their homes,  investments, et cetera). Not a single one of them knew anything more than Bitcoin by name. NONE of them were interested at all in investing in Bitcoin, too risky, too strange, to difficult to even understand for them.

I spent 15 minutes discussing Bitcoin with the most open minded of the bunch. He wanted to know what he would do to even buy a single coin. Holy crap, what method was I going to suggest to this guy who can barely get Skype to work correctly. I chose a paper wallet and Local Bitcoins. He thought it was reasonable, however, i could tell by the look in his eyes there was no way in Hell he was going to invest a single dollar any time soon.

The masses ARE NOT early adopters, they will not do research, take a chance, learn about digital wallets, trust some web site exchange or anything of the sort. If it isn't offered by their broker, or banker, or something they can buy at the local Gold dealer, then they are not interested. BITCOIN right now seems a world away from this mass adoption. A WORLD AWAY.

We are still in speculative, niche phase that has a long way to go to play out. It is the biggest reason Bitcoin can fail because if another Crypto steps in and solves these access problems look out. Guys like those in my family DO NOT going to care about the virtues of Bitcoin's distributed, non-regulated, anti-govt protocol. They will invest in the first thing that is 1) accessible 2) available to them through standard channels 3) endorsed by things they trust: banks, govts, large companies.

That said the price may go to $2000 in the next month , or $200....

Well that's just it, isn't it? A coin is just part of a protocol. Bitcoin will never "solve" the access problems, the eco-system around bitcoin will solve those access problems. VC projects like Circle.com, that is why these companies are coming into existence. Its a process. But lets not be one of the masses that think that bitcoin is suppose to be the "solution." Its simply the platform on which these solutions are built.

[granathus]

3) endorsed by things they trust: banks, govts, large companies.

Sad state of affairs...

[windjc]

Long term perspective is generally even more difficult to predict. Based on how peak/correction cycles played out historically, I would be extremely surprised if we've already seen the end of the correction. Late January/Early February is more likely based on how previous corrections played out wrt time. Price targets are difficult because it all depends on whether the December 18 low was really the bottom, or just an intermediate step in a larger more forceful downtrend, or alternatively, a long drawn out decline. I still see the possibility that daily SMA100 was active as support on that crash, and the final capitulation will be higher than the low of December 18, but that's not a strong conviction I hold, at best an informed guess.

It doesn't seem like you've factored in the kinds of changes - "mass-adoption" (or at least evolving mass-awareness thanks to increased media coverage), developing services, etc. - that have led to some calling this the "tipping point" for Bitcoin. Of course it is impossible to give precise mathematical indicators in this respect but qualitatively speaking things are not the same now as they were historically. That said, the December 18 low of $450 fits well in comparison with history.

We are nowhere close to mass adoption, not by a long shot. I just spent dinner with my extended family where there were five middle aged wealthy men attending (not overly wealthy, just have nice jobs, equity in their homes,  investments, et cetera). Not a single one of them knew anything more than Bitcoin by name. NONE of them were interested at all in investing in Bitcoin, too risky, too strange, to difficult to even understand for them.

I spent 15 minutes discussing Bitcoin with the most open minded of the bunch. He wanted to know what he would do to even buy a single coin. Holy crap, what method was I going to suggest to this guy who can barely get Skype to work correctly. I chose a paper wallet and Local Bitcoins. He thought it was reasonable, however, i could tell by the look in his eyes there was no way in Hell he was going to invest a single dollar any time soon.

The masses ARE NOT early adopters, they will not do research, take a chance, learn about digital wallets, trust some web site exchange or anything of the sort. If it isn't offered by their broker, or banker, or something they can buy at the local Gold dealer, then they are not interested. BITCOIN right now seems a world away from this mass adoption. A WORLD AWAY.

We are still in speculative, niche phase that has a long way to go to play out. It is the biggest reason Bitcoin can fail because if another Crypto steps in and solves these access problems look out. Guys like those in my family DO NOT going to care about the virtues of Bitcoin's distributed, non-regulated, anti-govt protocol. They will invest in the first thing that is 1) accessible 2) available to them through standard channels 3) endorsed by things they trust: banks, govts, large companies.

That said the price may go to $2000 in the next month , or $200....

agree

need someone to make bitcoin idiot proof and attract the masses

Someone needs to make this forum idiot proof. I long for the days that BCTalk had a hold on new registrations. (this is not necessarily directed at you)

[granathus]

Someone needs to make this forum engrish idiot proof. I long for the says that BCTalk had a hold on new registrations. (this is not necessarily directed at you)

Fixed.

PS. Not necessarily directed at you 

[Dragonkiller]

Long term perspective is generally even more difficult to predict. Based on how peak/correction cycles played out historically, I would be extremely surprised if we've already seen the end of the correction. Late January/Early February is more likely based on how previous corrections played out wrt time. Price targets are difficult because it all depends on whether the December 18 low was really the bottom, or just an intermediate step in a larger more forceful downtrend, or alternatively, a long drawn out decline. I still see the possibility that daily SMA100 was active as support on that crash, and the final capitulation will be higher than the low of December 18, but that's not a strong conviction I hold, at best an informed guess.

It doesn't seem like you've factored in the kinds of changes - "mass-adoption" (or at least evolving mass-awareness thanks to increased media coverage), developing services, etc. - that have led to some calling this the "tipping point" for Bitcoin. Of course it is impossible to give precise mathematical indicators in this respect but qualitatively speaking things are not the same now as they were historically. That said, the December 18 low of $450 fits well in comparison with history.

We are nowhere close to mass adoption, not by a long shot. I just spent dinner with my extended family where there were five middle aged wealthy men attending (not overly wealthy, just have nice jobs, equity in their homes,  investments, et cetera). Not a single one of them knew anything more than Bitcoin by name. NONE of them were interested at all in investing in Bitcoin, too risky, too strange, to difficult to even understand for them.

I spent 15 minutes discussing Bitcoin with the most open minded of the bunch. He wanted to know what he would do to even buy a single coin. Holy crap, what method was I going to suggest to this guy who can barely get Skype to work correctly. I chose a paper wallet and Local Bitcoins. He thought it was reasonable, however, i could tell by the look in his eyes there was no way in Hell he was going to invest a single dollar any time soon.

The masses ARE NOT early adopters, they will not do research, take a chance, learn about digital wallets, trust some web site exchange or anything of the sort. If it isn't offered by their broker, or banker, or something they can buy at the local Gold dealer, then they are not interested. BITCOIN right now seems a world away from this mass adoption. A WORLD AWAY.

We are still in speculative, niche phase that has a long way to go to play out. It is the biggest reason Bitcoin can fail because if another Crypto steps in and solves these access problems look out. Guys like those in my family DO NOT care about the virtues of Bitcoin's distributed, non-regulated, anti-govt protocol. They will invest in the first thing that is 1) accessible 2) available to them through standard channels 3) endorsed by things they trust: banks, govts, large companies.

That said the price may go to $2000 in the next month , or $200....

average person needs to hear about something several times over a period of time before the idea is planted. after hearing about another 1-2 "bubbles"/something else that attracts mainstream attention, they will begin researching it etc and might start investing. right now, a lot of people might have heard of bitcoins but most have no idea of what it actually is and the potential it has to change the world.

[User705]

Interesting read:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto&_r=1&

Even more interesting though, are the comments of the readers. Am I the only one here that thinks that Krugman is paid to stand for fiat money? His arguments find me completely indifferent.

I have had and am continuing to have a dialogue with smart technologists who are very high on BitCoin — but when I try to get them to explain to me why BitCoin is a reliable store of value, they always seem to come back with explanations about how it’s a terrific medium of exchange. Even if I buy this (which I don’t, entirely), it doesn’t solve my problem. And I haven’t been able to get my correspondents to recognize that these are different questions.

Heh... probably talking to the wrong people (intentionally that is...).

He's also fundamentally missing it.  A part of why it is a reliable store of value is connected to the value of it being a terrific medium of exchange.  By carving out parts of his interlocutor's response categorically, shows that he hasn't taken a close enough look at it.

It is reliable.
It creates a public record of trade.  Stored for posterity.
By using it we enter into these records.  It connects us to each other.
It is fundamentally better in many important ways, even for governments, than what governments are getting from the central bankers.  If that isn't valuable, what is?

My best reason would be "impossible to create money out of thin air". But he's all about "Federal Reserve’s role as actual dollar source, and its commitment not to allow deflation to happen." I mean WTF? Is he for real? They CONTROL the thing! Oh well...

You do realize that now and for a long time from now bitcoin system will still be "creating money out of thin air".  

[explorer]

Someone needs to make this forum idiot proof. I long for the days that BCTalk had a hold on new registrations. (this is not necessarily directed at you)

But it could be 

there are a LOT of questions and statements that could be resolved by a small amount of research.

[granathus]

You do realize that now and for a long time from now bitcoin system will still be "creating money out of thin air".  

And the US debt ceiling is just as rigid and final as the 21 million Bitcoin ceiling, right?

[Wilhelm]

You do realize that now and for a long time from now bitcoin system will still be "creating money out of thin air".  

And the US debt ceiling is just as rigid and final as the 21 million Bitcoin ceiling, right?

Plus the difficulty of mining bitcoins will increase whereas printing money is just as easy

[fognozz]

This strikes me as an odd discussion....if I want to buy a share of a stock, I don't go to the pit on wall street and start waving my arms, I just log onto TrowePrice or Vanguard or whatever and set an order, they buy it and I'm good to go.

As far as I can tell, Coinbase does the same thing- yes, it would be nice to set limit orders etc., and I'm sure that will come, but basically it's a financial service that takes care of all the details.

DieJohnny, why didn't you send him to Coinbase to buy a few coins? Yes, Coinbase could be hacked, etc. but so could a Vanguard account - it's all about the reliability of the company, and the methods they use to safeguard my investment.

Yes, I get the whole "setting up a digital wallet safe from any intrusion" aspect....but most folks like myself are going to buy and sell and move bitcoins like we move stocks and bonds, through a service that handles the technical mumbo-jumbo.

Is there something I'm not understanding here?

[ChartBuddy]