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Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
7/14 - 0 (0%)
7/21 - 1 (0.8%)
7/28 - 11 (8.9%)
8/4 - 16 (12.9%)
8/11 - 8 (6.5%)
8/18 - 6 (4.8%)
8/25 - 8 (6.5%)
After August - 74 (59.7%)
Total Voters: 124

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26489628 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
surfer43
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January 31, 2014, 10:48:28 PM
 #82081

Sure is slow lately =/
People always say "Stability is good for adoption and adoption is good for stability"
Also it is stable, so more will adopt, so price goes ↑
adamstgBit
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January 31, 2014, 10:49:00 PM
 #82082

Sure is slow lately =/

its the calm b4 the storm.

feels like short term trend is reversing, this is a slow process.

i think as long as we don't have any bad news confirmed, things are going to get real interesting, real soon.

hang in there.

surfer43
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January 31, 2014, 10:52:24 PM
 #82083

Sure is slow lately =/

its the calm b4 the storm.

feels like short term trend is reversing, this is a slow process.

i think as long as we don't have any bad news confirmed, things are going to get real interesting, real soon.

hang in there.


the ☁ Huh
What does this mean? USD crashes?  Cheesy
billyjoeallen
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January 31, 2014, 10:53:25 PM
 #82084

i said all other things equal. meaning that those with the same foresight to invest in bitcoin have much smaller holdings by virtue only of the twins being born into wealth.

bullshit. They got their bitcoin money from their Facebook settlement, another case of their foresight.
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January 31, 2014, 11:00:03 PM
 #82085

i said all other things equal. meaning that those with the same foresight to invest in bitcoin have much smaller holdings by virtue only of the twins being born into wealth.

bullshit. They got their bitcoin money from their Facebook settlement, another case of their foresight.

I was gonna post pretty much the same thing.
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January 31, 2014, 11:02:54 PM
 #82086


Explanation
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January 31, 2014, 11:06:03 PM
 #82087

i said all other things equal. meaning that those with the same foresight to invest in bitcoin have much smaller holdings by virtue only of the twins being born into wealth.

bullshit. They got their bitcoin money from their Facebook settlement, another case of their foresight.

I was gonna post pretty much the same thing.

I hope one day they become richer than Zuckerberg. That would be poetic justice.
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January 31, 2014, 11:18:16 PM
 #82088

What are folks planning on doing with themselves if there are months of sideways movements? Will you dabble in altcoins? Start a Bitcoin business? Drive yourself to despair trying to trade a $700-850 gap or just set an alarm for when there's an explosion?

I've realised that excitement in either direction is what's keeping me here more than financial gains, not that they're to be sniffed at.
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January 31, 2014, 11:20:21 PM
 #82089

Sure is slow lately =/

its the calm b4 the storm.

feels like short term trend is reversing, this is a slow process.

i think as long as we don't have any bad news confirmed, things are going to get real interesting, real soon.

hang in there.


the ☁ Huh
What does this mean? USD crashes?  Cheesy



coin cheapness is going down, and price is going up, this is very bullish
+ the triangle is breaking
+ the lightning bolt is also bullish

CCFM
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January 31, 2014, 11:21:34 PM
 #82090

Sure is slow lately =/

its the calm b4 the storm.

feels like short term trend is reversing, this is a slow process.

i think as long as we don't have any bad news confirmed, things are going to get real interesting, real soon.

hang in there.



I agree. Price is generally sticky, it is due to human psychology, people are most happy to pay today what they paid yesterday. It was sticky at $1, $10, $20, $100 and now here, but the pressures building beneath remain relentless http://www.bitcoinpulse.com/ coinbase now at 10,000 wallets per day and blockchain.info ~6,000 per day

Eventually the building demand pressure overwhelms the stickiness and demand outstrips supply at the margin and then we need to re-adjust price to reflect the new reality that has built up in the time that the price has been stuck, hence the volatility. It is not going to be smooth climb up to to saturation level pricing because humans are human.
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January 31, 2014, 11:22:43 PM
 #82091

What are folks planning on doing with themselves if there are months of sideways movements? Will you dabble in altcoins? Start a Bitcoin business? Drive yourself to despair trying to trade a $700-850 gap or just set an alarm for when there's an explosion?

I've realised that excitement in either direction is what's keeping me here more than financial gains, not that they're to be sniffed at.

draw crazy charts, post them, and be the only one loling....
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January 31, 2014, 11:23:50 PM
 #82092

For example, I claim that on Feb/22 the price will be between 300 USD and 2200 USD with 95% probability.
I claim that too,but without that elaborate methods.
I consider it a bit ridiculous since the range of 300-2200 ist huge.
anyone without any sophisticated method can forecast this.
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January 31, 2014, 11:30:58 PM
 #82093

What are folks planning on doing with themselves if there are months of sideways movements? Will you dabble in altcoins? Start a Bitcoin business? Drive yourself to despair trying to trade a $700-850 gap or just set an alarm for when there's an explosion?

I've realised that excitement in either direction is what's keeping me here more than financial gains, not that they're to be sniffed at.

I'm starting a business as a Bitcoin consultant. There's so much work to be done building the infrastructure.  
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January 31, 2014, 11:32:15 PM
 #82094

Cool. I can imagine there'll be serious and ongoing money in that for people who get it right.
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January 31, 2014, 11:41:30 PM
 #82095

Price is generally sticky, it is due to human psychology, people are most happy to pay today what they paid yesterday. It was sticky at $1, $10, $20, $100 and now here, but the pressures building beneath remain relentless http://www.bitcoinpulse.com/ coinbase now at 10,000 wallets per day and blockchain.info ~6,000 per day

Eventually the building demand pressure overwhelms the stickiness and demand outstrips supply at the margin and then we need to re-adjust price to reflect the new reality that has built up in the time that the price has been stuck, hence the volatility. It is not going to be smooth climb up to to saturation level pricing because humans are human.


I agree with the dynamic you described above.

I would add that presently we have two forces at play:

-  new buyers who entered the market Nov-Jan, excited after learning about the potential of bitcoin, wanting to increase their positions (perhaps they initially invested only a couple hundred $ just to get their feet wet)

     VS

- people who are now sitting on large gains, waking up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night one night with the epiphany "hmm, I now have $100,000 worth of BTC and $5,000 of cash in the bank.  I believe more than ever in bitcoin, but perhaps I should diversify just in case."

Eventually the people sitting on large gains have diversified enough to sleep soundly, but the new buyers keep entering the market and buying and we get a new leg up...  


But the one thing I can't figure out is what caused the dip (see below) this last summer.  I believe a lot of people (myself included) think we will see something like this play out again.  But does anyone have a rational explanation for why this might have happened in the first place?  I remember this moment well: everyone on local bitcoins in Vancouver was sold out of coins (or asking ridiculous premiums) which I thought was odd (it was as though it was clear to everyone that the price was too low).



JorgeStolfi
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January 31, 2014, 11:42:19 PM
 #82096

As the work of Mandelbrot pretty definitively shows[1], you should nearly always include a fat tail on both sides of your distribution.

I am sure that there exist better prediction methods (say, that provide "X% confidence" intervals that are narrower than those of the Brownian model but still  contain the predicted value at least X% of the time in the long run).  I am a complete amateur in this field.

Indeed, as you say, a fat tail is evident in the distribution of the one-step increments Z(i+1) - Z(i).  However, both theory and data tell me that a Gaussian distribution, with linearly increasing variance,  works well for larger steps Z(i+n) - Z(i) when n is ~20 hours or more.  See this plot:



This is a series of crude histograms of the quantity R(i,n) = (Z(i+n) - Z(i))/sqrt(n), sampled from the reference datafile (Bitstamp 2013-09-01 to 2014-01-30, 1 hour intervals) with various values of i,  tallied separately for each stride n.  The "n" axis runs across the middle of the plot, with n=1 at the upper left edge and increasing down to the right. The "R" axis is perpendicular to it, with R=0 in the middle.  The histogram for each n is normalized to unit sum.

The long fat tails and narrower peak of the distribution for small n is quite evident.  However, as n increases, the tails and sharp peak seem to disappear, as one would expect from the Law of Large Numbers.

Actually, I am not really sure about the tails because the number of samples in each histogram also gets smaller when n increases.  Perhaps the following plot is more convincing:



In this plot, the horizontal axis is the stride n (hours), and the vertical axis is the log increment D(i,n) = Z(i+n) - Z(i)  (not divided by sqrt(n)).

The light brown crosses on each vertical line are a sample of differences D(i,n) with same value of n and various values of i.  Each green dot is the mean of the sample increments D(i,n) with same n.  Each red dot is the standard deviation of those increments, computed assuming that their expected value is 0 (rather than the empirical mean shown by the green dot).  The histogram-like lines are the 2.5% and 97.5% percentiles of those samples. 

The orange curve is the deviation sigma(n) = C*sqrt(n) of D(i,n) predicted by the log-Brownian model.  The purple curves are the ±2*sigma(n) bounds above and below D=0.

According to this plot, for n ~15 hours or more, the empirical deviation (red dots) is very close to the model C*sqrt(n) (orange line).  For n ~30 hours or more, the curves ± 2*C*sqrt(n) folow the empirical 2.5%-97.5% percentiles as accurately as one could expect. 

The model clearly fails for smaller n; in particular, over the span of 5 hours, large swings occur more often than would be expected in a log-Brownian model.   Therefore, I  was too confident in my prediction for tomorrow; but with a bit of luck, I should be safe for the rest of the month.  Smiley

The slightly ascending green line means that there is a consistent increasing trend in that sample.  That trend also manifests itself in the growing gap between the empirical 2.5% percentile and the -2*sigma(n) curve.  However, if I had used only the last 2 months of data for the analysis, instead of the last 5, the trend would have been decreasing - and stronger.  That is one of the reasons why I did not include a trend term.

I have looked for correlations between successive increments (Z(i) - Z(i-1)  and Z(i+1)-Z(i)), but did not see anything clearly significant.  If there is such a correlation, it must be very subtle, and should be quickly "forgotten" after a few time steps.

Note that real stock prices are influenced by "real world" factors such as demand for the product, raw material prices, etc.  Those factors vary according to their own nature in various time scales, that range from decades to hours.  Maybe it is those factors that provide the long-term correlations characteristic of fractal signals?

In contrast, Bitcoin's price is almost entirely set by speculation; while external news may trigger changes, they do not directly determine the magnitude of those changes. ("How many billion dollars were subtracted from Bitcoin's future usage in e-commerce payments because of Shrem's arrest?")

So perhaps Bitcoin's price is indeed better described by a log-Brownian model than by a fractal process...
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January 31, 2014, 11:48:59 PM
 #82097

who's getting bent out of shape? someone mentioned jealousy and i said, yeah i am jealous. Smiley


Jealousy is unhealthy. Switch to envy. Much better.
i tried that but then
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February 01, 2014, 12:02:57 AM
 #82098


Explanation
JorgeStolfi
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February 01, 2014, 12:05:17 AM
 #82099

For example, I claim that on Feb/22 the price will be between 300 USD and 2200 USD with 95% probability.
I claim that too,but without that elaborate methods.
I consider it a bit ridiculous since the range of 300-2200 is huge.
anyone without any sophisticated method can forecast this.

Basically, that is it, yes.

My number hacking so far is telling me that the market does not care for the past history of the price, not even over the past hour; it only considers the current price and increases or decreases it by a random percentage amount.   If that is true, no analysis, no matter how sophisticated, will be able to provide substantially better forecasts than those stupid green lines derived from the log-Brownian model.

You say that an experienced bitcoin trader would have guessed "300-2200 in 20 days" without doing any math.  Possibly.  It may be that, after staring at the charts for years, those traders developed a subconscious "calculator" to make such predictions.  If they got the right intuition, their guesses should roughly match my green lines.
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February 01, 2014, 12:13:54 AM
 #82100

But the one thing I can't figure out is what caused the dip (see below) this last summer.  I believe a lot of people (myself included) think we will see something like this play out again.  But does anyone have a rational explanation for why this might have happened in the first place?  I remember this moment well: everyone on local bitcoins in Vancouver was sold out of coins (or asking ridiculous premiums) which I thought was odd (it was as though it was clear to everyone that the price was too low).


The main reason was MtGox. It was the only exchange that had any real volume at that time and there was all kind of bad news about MtGox regarding withdrawal problems, funding issues and them being sued plus FINCEN also being after them for not being properly licensed as a MTB. The FUD was incredible, much more than we see now, and part of it was justified too.
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