Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[knarzo]

too fast deflation

Sorry bro..

No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqkMsXcHQYg

[porcupine87]

Omfg!!! Panic buy!!' Lol

Never a dull day in bitcoin - people wonder why I don't follow sports

You guys make such a big deal out of the smallest things. "a 700btc order was purchased. The price went up 1%". It's just like sports commentators. "Wow he threw the ball".

But this thread is called "wall observer" and a 800btc wall gets not tear down every 5min...

[johnny211]

You dont seems to get that it was not the case, oh well w/e

Ah sorry, got the impression you lost on a position large enough to take you negative. Anyway, adding up the transaction log should bring some clarity, check with josh if your's is corrupted for some reason. I just checked my tx log on builder and it looks fine, I used the one from My Account -> Download full account history.

Hope you get it sorted.

[yrtrnc]

Yep, we are going to 600

[johnny211]

The bank has to suffer some loss too. Its their mistake in the first place.

sorry lol, if you mistakenly receive some money and spend them / lose them, you are still responsible for the loss. maybe bank will be unable to recover and have to eat it, but you cannot seriously be proposing that gambling away money credited in error is somebody elses reponsibility??

[joburgtaxi]

Found this, is what Jesse Powell CEO of Kraken exchange had to say about the GOX saga

I've been wracking my brain trying to make sense of everything.  What gets me is that Mark isn't an idiot.  If I assume that the Crisis Strategy Draft is truthy, a scenario like this is more plausible than what we've been fed:

1. Gox was robbed of a massive amount of coins (800k+) at some prior point in time, possibly June 2011, and has been operating a fractional reserve since.
2. Gox determined that it was better to continue operating the exchange, probably both for the sake of Bitcoin, and for their customers who would eventually be made whole from fees earned.
3. Gox knew of transaction malleability and had been keeping that scapegoat in their back pocket to use in the event of a bank run.  Or, they didn't know but the losses from TM were actually recent and minor.  Or, they didn't know but the losses from TM occurred over a long period of time and they never noticed because they never reconciled the books, because they knew they wouldn't match anyway because they were already fractional.
4. Fiat withdrawal problems led to an increased uptick of BTC withdrawals, outpacing BTC deposits and draining reserves to 0.  This may have been compounded by an actual problem with transaction malleability that accelerated the process.
5. Gox spent its fiat reserves and customers' fiat reserves to buy up BTC in order to keep the ship afloat until they could launch their rebranded Gox.com and Bitpocket wallet, which they'd hoped would provide more runway in the form of additional BTC deposits.
6. Gox doesn't make it happen in time and is forced to shut down, negative on fiat by millions and having lost all BTC.

[BitApparel]

new bull trap

[kkaspar]

too fast deflation

Sorry bro..

No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqkMsXcHQYg

That is no lie, but it is the ugly truth of bitcoin, that most people involved with bitcoin aren't here because they are idealistic, moral and ethical. They are here because they are promised an easy way to get rich. The talks of freedom and liberty are just marketing techniques to sell bitcoins to those who know less.
Bitcoin kind of reminds me the communism movement. On the outside, it looked like idealistic people want to give more freedom and liberty to the people, but really they were just interested in redistributing power to their favor, while actually concentrating power even more then before.

[hdbuck]

Found this, is what Jesse Powell CEO of Kraken exchange had to say about the GOX saga

I've been wracking my brain trying to make sense of everything.  What gets me is that Mark isn't an idiot.  If I assume that the Crisis Strategy Draft is truthy, a scenario like this is more plausible than what we've been fed:

1. Gox was robbed of a massive amount of coins (800k+) at some prior point in time, possibly June 2011, and has been operating a fractional reserve since.
2. Gox determined that it was better to continue operating the exchange, probably both for the sake of Bitcoin, and for their customers who would eventually be made whole from fees earned.
3. Gox knew of transaction malleability and had been keeping that scapegoat in their back pocket to use in the event of a bank run.  Or, they didn't know but the losses from TM were actually recent and minor.  Or, they didn't know but the losses from TM occurred over a long period of time and they never noticed because they never reconciled the books, because they knew they wouldn't match anyway because they were already fractional.
4. Fiat withdrawal problems led to an increased uptick of BTC withdrawals, outpacing BTC deposits and draining reserves to 0.  This may have been compounded by an actual problem with transaction malleability that accelerated the process.
5. Gox spent its fiat reserves and customers' fiat reserves to buy up BTC in order to keep the ship afloat until they could launch their rebranded Gox.com and Bitpocket wallet, which they'd hoped would provide more runway in the form of additional BTC deposits.
6. Gox doesn't make it happen in time and is forced to shut down, negative on fiat by millions and having lost all BTC.

finally, you got it bud.  

edit: MK just bought some time to cover his theft. its not the first time it happened in Bitcoin services industry and it probably wont be the last time. the coins are never going to be recovered. period.

[Carra23]

The bank has to suffer some loss too. Its their mistake in the first place.

sorry lol, if you mistakenly receive some money and spend them / lose them, you are still responsible for the loss. maybe bank will be unable to recover and have to eat it, but you cannot seriously be proposing that gambling away money credited in error is somebody elses reponsibility??

So the bank goes scot free for its error? In my book the bank has to pay a fine too.

In the situation at hand it seems bitcoinbuilder is simply washing its hands off and the entire liability is on Magicmexican.

[polyclef]

Turing completeness is a horrible idea for scripting in a cryptocurrency. Just look at the past couple of decades of vulnerabilities in java, javascript, flash, etc, etc.  Turing complete money will drain your wallet on it's own.

The only thing I can see stopping it is another cryptocurrency which accomplishes everything that Bitcoin does and more, only with a codebase so different that Bitcoin can not adopt these added desirable features.

May I ask how important you feel Turing completeness is in the scripting language?

I'm sorry, I do not have the technical knowledge to answer this question. Give me a few days and I may be able to give you an answer.

+1

These are good points too.  Turing completeness in a scripting language means that "anything computable, can be computed by running the appropriate script."  So there is an infinite surface of potential problems that would slowly show themselves, I think.  The Java exploits are a good analogy. 

just think about something like 
{ while true; }
in the scripting language. I send you such a transaction. Will your machine lock up in an endless loop?

No comment on weather this is a good idea or not, but theres a simple solution to this particular problem: fees.

Only execute the first x operations, where x=fee*const. Sure, you could make a machine freeze up for a half a second, but you'd be paying out the ass to do it.

Agreed, fee/clock cycle fixes this pretty well, but that's not the real danger.  The real danger is when the code can escape the boundaries defined for it as we see in exploit code.  It's been over 25 years since the Morris worm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm) and we still see ever more elaborate mechanisms for executing arbitrary code.  It's easy to avoid if the language is limited.  As soon as you get to Turing completeness, there's always another way to construct things.

[joburgtaxi]

And found this too

MT.GOX Situation Crisis Strategy, not sure if this has been on here already.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/209050732/MtGox-Situation-Crisis-Strategy-Draft

[johnny211]

So the bank goes scot free for its error? In my book the bank has to pay a fine too.

In the situation at hand it seems bitcoinbuilder is simply washing its hands off and the entire liability is on Magicmexican.

I guess it depends on the error, if the order were never entered on the account ofc the exchange should eat the loss. But if its a question of losing track of sizes and prices then its down to the trader i'd say. The tx log will tell all once it's been tallied.

[Chang Hum]

And found this too

MT.GOX Situation Crisis Strategy, not sure if this has been on here already.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/209050732/MtGox-Situation-Crisis-Strategy-Draft

Thanks no-ones read that yet.

[Chang Hum]

Explanation

thanks no-ones read that yet.

[knarzo]

quote

Do you know who Konrad Lorenz was? If not I'd suggest you go to library and find out.
Monocultures, like to one you are preaching for, are fragile. Just take a look around the globe. But i know - why should people which were fed with a golden spoon [cheap money] want a change

[Miz4r]

too fast deflation

Sorry bro..

No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqkMsXcHQYg

That is no lie, but it is the ugly truth of bitcoin, that most people involved with bitcoin aren't here because they are idealistic, moral and ethical. They are here because they are promised an easy way to get rich. The talks of freedom and liberty are just marketing techniques to sell bitcoins to those who know less.
Bitcoin kind of reminds me the communism movement. On the outside, it looked like idealistic people want to give more freedom and liberty to the people, but really they were just interested in redistributing power to their favor, while actually concentrating power even more then before.

That's just your cynical point of view, not the 'ugly truth'. You're just making assumptions as to what most people are in it for and that's your entire argument against it? I think for many it's a combination of things. Some see Bitcoin as a better form of money because there is no central authority having a monopoly on its creation and there is no limitless supply that can be created out of nowhere. It also cuts out middlemen like banks which is also a very positive thing for many. Others just see it as a practical tool to move money around and across borders almost for free. Anyway there are many reasons why people would like to get into Bitcoin, not just to make a lot of money. But even if it's only about becoming rich for some, how is that different from the people who invested early in Apple or Google? Are those companies bad because of greedy speculators/early adopters as well? There is a lot of risk involved with it too, so it's not an easy way to get rich at all because there is absolutely no guarantee that Bitcoin will succeed. I may lose it all if it fails. So in short I think your argument is flawed and biased but hey, you're entitled to your own opinion.

[magicmexican]

The bank has to suffer some loss too. Its their mistake in the first place.

sorry lol, if you mistakenly receive some money and spend them / lose them, you are still responsible for the loss. maybe bank will be unable to recover and have to eat it, but you cannot seriously be proposing that gambling away money credited in error is somebody elses reponsibility??

So the bank goes scot free for its error? In my book the bank has to pay a fine too.

In the situation at hand it seems bitcoinbuilder is simply washing its hands off and the entire liability is on Magicmexican.

Problem is, i was not trading with anything "extra", all my trades in the past days were correct. But today when i logged in my acc, my balance was fucked up, i had more goxcoins than i had(not a ton more, just more), plus a pretty big negative "real btc" balance, and then Josh said that "the only way to get rid of it is to either deposit more real btc or sell goxbtc" - but even by selling 100% of my goxbtc i would still be in the negative, so i sent him another email, pressing the issue and saying that this is a fucking joke. And only after that email he took a part of my goxbtc to get rid of the negative balance. (Which i also did not like, because it looked like he was trying to put everything on me to see how i would react first)

I am still doing some calculations, but i think i ended up paying for their technical fuck up anyway. So thats that.

[empowering]

That is the dumbest answer I've seen from you yet.

As much as it annoys me that you keep introducing new reasons of why bitcoin is not for you whenever an argument shows that it is not a black and white answer and bitcoin could have merit I do value that this discussion is taking place with solid arguments.

The potential for getting rich is a reflection of the high risks you are actually pointing out.
Bitcoin could be replaced by some other crypto currency.
All the points you are making are the reasons why bitcoins current value is what it is and why it might be magnitudes more once they are resolved.
Just like you many many people are saying the risk is too high.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have never said that bitcoin is not for me. I have earned quite a buck with investing in bitcoin. The disagreement comes where I don't see that bitcoin has a very long future infront of it. I see about a year or maybe two.
And I have been telling if the problems with the current market threat is resolved, then the price can go up.

It seems that if you don't agree with the constant shouts of "now this is the bottom and it will go up!" or arguments like "bitcoin will be used for decades to come!" then people here will actually start to demonize you, with acting like you are saying things that you have never actually said.

Hi- just a thought... If Bitcoin has a year or two, then whatever is going to replace it, then it must already be around right now.... so which coin is it? and what does it do that is going to make it out compete Bitcoin in your opinion?

[Carra23]

The bank has to suffer some loss too. Its their mistake in the first place.

sorry lol, if you mistakenly receive some money and spend them / lose them, you are still responsible for the loss. maybe bank will be unable to recover and have to eat it, but you cannot seriously be proposing that gambling away money credited in error is somebody elses reponsibility??

So the bank goes scot free for its error? In my book the bank has to pay a fine too.

In the situation at hand it seems bitcoinbuilder is simply washing its hands off and the entire liability is on Magicmexican.

Problem is, i was not trading with anything "extra", all my trades in the past days were correct. But today when i logged in my acc, my balance was fucked up, i had more goxcoins than i had(not a ton more, just more), plus a pretty big negative "real btc" balance, and then Josh said that "the only way to get rid of it is to either deposit more real btc or sell goxbtc" - but even by selling 100% of my goxbtc i would still be in the negative, so i sent him another email, pressing the issue and saying that this is a fucking joke. And only after that email he took a part of my goxbtc to get rid of the negative balance. (Which i also did not like, because it looked like he was trying to put everything on me to see how i would react first)

I am still doing some calculations, but i think i ended up paying for their technical fuck up anyway. So thats that.

This gets murkier by the minute. Do post your results here after the calculations.

Basically it seems they added some goxbtcs into your account at a higher price than the current. That is completely on them, then.