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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26403521 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
oda.krell
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May 14, 2014, 03:07:19 PM

It bothers me that this recent 'no action at all' phase bothers me so much.

I really think I just shouldn't care, take a break maybe, made more than enough profit in the past months after all, and isn't this what the LT investors always hope for, stability? Yeah, that's what I should feel...

In reality of course it's driving me crazy. "Make up your mind already, market!", he said, angrily glaring at btcwisdom.

It's made up its mind Smiley

Hardly.

Getting to 420, or 460, doesn't matter which... that'd be interesting.

Until then: - - - ` - - _ - - `- _ - `- - -

(that's some brilliant ASCII art, huh?)
oda.krell
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May 14, 2014, 03:10:53 PM

Just interested whether anyone can point me to a remotely similar situation - perhaps a commodity that is heavily controlled in some countries but traded freely in others - so that some understanding of the implications for the global market may be understood.

Gold was forbidden to own in the United States between 1933 and 1974, punishable by $10,000 fine and/or 10 years imprisonment.

Meanwhile in the free world, the price went up from $20 to $195 during that period.

Background.

This is potentially the most relevant thing to think about that anyone has posted here for a while.

Quote
War, invasion and national emergency

When dollars were fully convertible into gold via the gold standard, both were regarded as money. However, most people preferred to carry around paper banknotes rather than the somewhat heavier and less divisible gold coins. If people feared their bank would fail, a bank run might result. This happened in the USA during the Great Depression of the 1930s, leading President Roosevelt to impose a national emergency and issue Executive Order 6102 outlawing the "hoarding" of gold by US citizens. There was only one prosecution under the order, and in that case the order was ruled invalid by federal judge John M. Woolsey, on the technical grounds that the order was signed by the President, not the Secretary of the Treasury as required.[43]

WP article "Gold as an investment"


EDIT: More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Interesting article. Looks like gold was in fact confiscated in several cases, but I can only find one mention of penalization, and the article mentions "Most citizens who owned large amounts of gold had it transferred to countries such as Switzerland.[citation needed]".

Fun topic, but not really quite the same as the often feared "outlawing of BTC by all countries".
T.Stuart
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May 14, 2014, 03:25:53 PM


Fun topic, but not really quite the same as the often feared "outlawing of BTC by all countries".


Nothing really quite the same as BTC full stop!

We are all diving joyfully into the unknown. 

Smiley
kireinaha
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May 14, 2014, 03:36:30 PM

rally mode: on
samson
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May 14, 2014, 03:52:56 PM

rally mode: on

LOL  Roll Eyes


akujin
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May 14, 2014, 03:54:47 PM


Up? or Down?  Grin Grin Grin
Pruden
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May 14, 2014, 03:59:19 PM

I hope you have a lot of yellow markers.




adamstgBit
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May 14, 2014, 03:59:44 PM

bears will be bearish
ChartBuddy
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May 14, 2014, 04:00:48 PM


Explanation
UnDerDoG81
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May 14, 2014, 04:31:53 PM

EDIT: Whatever Cheesy
zimmah
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May 14, 2014, 04:32:23 PM


zimmah
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May 14, 2014, 04:36:31 PM

I saved 10k the last months/year and am going to holiday in 2 weeks. Now I am in a situation - buy or die? Should I buy moar? Or let the money under my bed for the next 2 months? Because as some people know, I(we, me and parents) already invested 60k @$700  Undecided

And I almost always buy high, so I probably think that if I buy, we´ll be at $200 soon... Any suggestions?

I don't think it is very likely for the price to drop below $400, and especially not below $350.
oda.krell
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May 14, 2014, 04:39:38 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2014, 05:03:38 PM by oda.krell

I saved 10k the last months/year and am going to holiday in 2 weeks. Now I am in a situation - buy or die? Should I buy moar? Or let the money under my bed for the next 2 months? Because as some people know, I(we, me and parents) already invested 60k @$700  Undecided

And I almost always buy high, so I probably think that if I buy, we´ll be at $200 soon... Any suggestions?

Oh boy. Are you serious?

You realize that, depending on who you ask, it is either TEH BEST TIME TO BUY EVAR or LOL DROP TO 200 TOMORROW.


I'll give it a shot to give a relatively neutral answer: Market is currently in a consolidation stage. It's everybody's guess (some will guess better than others however) if we're going up from here or not. In other words, it's always a gamble to some degree to invest/buy in, but more so now than during a time when the market is clearly going in one direction.

One thing I will say however: it is almost certainly a better time to buy in /now/ than when you originally did, with a downtrend very firmly in place, and still going at full steam. I'd say we're still pretty firmly inside it, but it lost some of its steam, so the downside risk is less now.

I'd still suggest to wait and see how the market moves in the next week or two. If you seriously won't have any chance to place an order in the next 2 months, then you might as well buy now, but don't be too surprised if it drops further, or (more likely maybe) price is still around 400 when you come back from your trip.
JorgeStolfi
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May 14, 2014, 04:57:44 PM

We do not know how many coins the Chinese traders still have, in-exchange and off-exchange.  We do not know how much CNY can enter the exchanges. (The convenient channels have been blocked, but there are still some less convenient ones, and they may be enough for a few traders to move large amounts.)

Right now it seems that the Chinese traders too are uncertain about what the price will do.  Some traders probably dumped their coins and left the game, but many apparently are still there, waiting.  Volume is small compared to the good old days, but still large compared to the Western exchanges.  The latter still seem to track Huobi and OKCoin more than the other way around.

It seems likely that there will be further bad news, such as other exchanges closing, or the loss of some of those roundabout deposit channels.  However, in the short run those news may cause the price to go up rather than down, since they may create demand for BTC as a way to leave and/or continue speculating.  Eventually, however, more coins must move from the Chinese exchanges to the Western ones, so the price should go down.  The momentary dip on Apr/12, to 2230 CNY = 340 USD, shows how far down it could go.

PS. Note that the market does not react to "news", it reacts to facts (real or false) that it learns from the news...

You are saying that the following may be potential bad news:
1. Other (Chinese) exchanges closing; and
2. Loss of roundabout deposit channels.

(1) can happen to small exchanges, as had happened to FXBTC. It is unlikely to happen to large exchanges, which are backed by large VC funding. If China bans exchanges or btc explicitly, then VC funding is irrelevant. But this is unlikely. Hence, (1) has little effect on price.
Most of the fund came from bank deposits. A smaller portion came from (2). (2) should have a larger impact on price than (1). Even so, it has been priced in to a large extent owning to the ban on bank deposit.

Please suggest worse potential news. Then we can analyse its impact on price. Thank you.

FXBTC was not that small: it used to have 20'000 BTC daily volume, which is 2-3 times Btstamp's typical volume. http://www.coindesk.com/chinas-bitcoin-ecosystem-undeterred-by-fxbtc-exchange-closure/ (Yes, yes, I know, it must be "fake". Like almost everything in bitcoinland it seems.  Angry)

The VC funding for the "large" exchanges was granted back when they were thought to have found a stable compromise that would let them prosper indefinitely; some of that was granted back in December IIRC. Anyway, venture capital is by definition invested in high-risk businesses, so having VC funding will not be an obstacle for failure.

According to a Chinese article posted here a few days ago, the revenue of Chinese exchanges came mainly from trading against their own clients (exploiting both advance information about PBoC and bank actions, and "high-frequency" trading) and from interest on leveraged trade.  I suspect that their clients beame aware of the former, and that may have influenced the "five exchanges resolution".  In an effort to clean up their image before the government and perhaps win back their estranged clients, they stopped leverage trading and promised to charge fees from HFT.  Indeed, trading at Huobi, at least, seems to be much slower now.

So their revenue must have been shrinking.  Will Huobi make enough to pay their, 20(?) call-center staff and 30(?) other staff?

At the moment, Chinese traders can still use banks for withdrawals and perhaps for some deposits (e.g. to recharge their daposit cards or pay OKCoin's brokers.) It seems at least possible that these channels too will be closed. If CNY withdrawals are closed with previous warning, there may be a rush to sell BTC, hence a price drop.  If an exchange blocks CNY withdrawals without prior notice (very unlikely IMHO) price will shoot up in that exchange but drop elsewehre.

ChartBuddy
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May 14, 2014, 05:00:48 PM


Explanation
niothor
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May 14, 2014, 05:16:50 PM

bears will be bearish

and
bulls will be bullish

and roses will be of all colors Wink
rpietila
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May 14, 2014, 05:34:48 PM

I predict a crash to $300-$350 in 7 days.

Based on the remarkable similarities in these 2 charts:

Double bottom at $2 in 2011.
Our progress so far in the bottoming process.

Somebody with more visual tools could clarify and present the case. I will have to explain:

2011:
- 3 RED weeks ending with a flashcrash to $4
- 2 GREEN weeks recovery
- 4 RED weeks ending in a flashcrash to $2
- GREEN-RED-GREEN pattern in recovery
- another flashcrash to $2.

2014:
- 4 RED weeks ending with a flashcrash to $400
- 2 GREEN weeks recovery
- 4 RED weeks ending in a flashcrash to $340
- GREEN-2 REDS-GREEN pattern in recovery
- ?

(to be found out in 7 days.... Wink )
damnek
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May 14, 2014, 05:43:51 PM

I predict a crash to $300-$350 in 7 days.

Based on the remarkable similarities in these 2 charts:

Double bottom at $2 in 2011.
Our progress so far in the bottoming process.

Somebody with more visual tools could clarify and present the case. I will have to explain:

2011:
- 3 RED weeks ending with a flashcrash to $4
- 2 GREEN weeks recovery
- 4 RED weeks ending in a flashcrash to $2
- GREEN-RED-GREEN pattern in recovery
- another flashcrash to $2.

2014:
- 4 RED weeks ending with a flashcrash to $400
- 2 GREEN weeks recovery
- 4 RED weeks ending in a flashcrash to $340
- GREEN-2 REDS-GREEN pattern in recovery
- ?

(to be found out in 7 days.... Wink )

I'd like to bet against your call, interested?
JayJuanGee
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May 14, 2014, 05:58:02 PM

I predict a crash to $300-$350 in 7 days.

Based on the remarkable similarities in these 2 charts:

Double bottom at $2 in 2011.
Our progress so far in the bottoming process.

Somebody with more visual tools could clarify and present the case. I will have to explain:

2011:
- 3 RED weeks ending with a flashcrash to $4
- 2 GREEN weeks recovery
- 4 RED weeks ending in a flashcrash to $2
- GREEN-RED-GREEN pattern in recovery
- another flashcrash to $2.

2014:
- 4 RED weeks ending with a flashcrash to $400
- 2 GREEN weeks recovery
- 4 RED weeks ending in a flashcrash to $340
- GREEN-2 REDS-GREEN pattern in recovery
- ?

(to be found out in 7 days.... Wink )

I'd like to bet against your call, interested?

He doesn't bet anything straight forward.  You would have to give him odds, and even then good luck with clarifying whatever it is that the bet is supposed to be.  Also, he will NOT bet for any less than 50BTC to make it worth his time.   Cheesy





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May 14, 2014, 06:00:47 PM


Explanation
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