Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[poobah]

While am I definitely no lawyer, I did manage a chain of retail stores for many years, and while BFL refunding the money may seem a crappy thing to do, it is legal.
There is no contract involved, just an offer and consideration. The transaction is not complete until the offer is accepted *and* consideration received. Although the price was accepted (the offer), no consideration was delivered, and the transaction is not complete.
In fact, BFL may be legally required to refund the money, regardless of their stated terms, if they can not deliver within a prescribed time period.

Also, one has to remember that no business is REQUIRED to conduct transactions with a particular individual, so long as their reasons for doing so are not discriminatory against a legally protected group (ie: not selling to someone because they are female is illegal. Not selling because they don't like your posts is not.)

I remember one incident where a guy was urinating on the front of the store next to the main entrance. After he finished, he attempted to enter the store, the manager refused to let him enter, telling them if he had no respect for the store, he was not welcome in it. He yelled, hollered, threatened, called the corporate offices and wrote letters, but despite all that, he was never allowed in the store again.

Now, it is certainly open for discussion as to whether or not BFL made a wise choice, but regardless, it is likely a legal choice.

edit: spelling

[Bitcoinorama]

While am I definitely no lawyer, I did manage a chain of retail stores for many years, and while BFL refunding the money may seem a crappy thing to do, it is legal.
There is no contract involved, just an offer and consideration. The transaction is not complete until the offer is accepted *and* consideration received. Although the price was accepted (the offer), no consideration was delivered, and the transaction is not complete.
In fact, BFL may be legally required to refund the money, regardless of their stated terms, if they can not deliver within a prescribed time period.

Also, one has to remember that no business is REQUIRED to conduct transactions with a particular individual, so long as their reasons for doing so are not discriminatory against a legally protected group (ie: not selling to someone because they are female is illegal. Not selling because they don't like your posts is not.)

I remember one incident where a guy was urinating on the front of the store next to the main entrance. After he finished, he attempted to enter the store, the manager refused to let him enter, telling them if he had no respect for the store, he was not welcome in it. He yelled, hollered, threatened, called the corporate offices and wrote letters, but despite all that, he was never allowed in the store again.

Now, it is certainly open for discussion as to whether or not BFL made a wise choice, but regardless, it is likely a legal choice.

edit: spelling

That maybe the case, but they are now openly inviting heat on themselves from disgruntled ex-customer(s) that may lead to an entire new can of worms being opened irrespective of this refund.

They will be fine as long as they are playing by the book, but there is a lot of evidence to the contrary mounting. Xian justifies his contempt due to broken promises. If they are investigated and found to be more than poor project management, then...

Especially if others start to complain, whether this refund for negative feedback becomes habitual, or not.

They are either very confident they can deliver, and don't care, or nuts to be pushing people who are already angry with how they've been treated.

[Xian01]

Now, it is certainly open for discussion as to whether or not BFL made a wise choice, but regardless, it is likely a legal choice.

 * mumbles something about wise choices. Stares at Paypal account waiting for credit and grumbles *

[wrenchmonkey]

They didn't set out to get a "free loan" from him. They just decided that the business relationship had become untenable, and chose to end it. If they had set out from the beginning to get "free loans" from people, there might be an issue with that, but this is a result of HIS behavior, not a result of some 'scheemy-scheme' to borrow a lousy 4000 bucks, interest free.

IMO it doesn't matter what they set out to do but what they did do which is punish a justifiably upset customer for expressing their opinion and profit from it in the process by not having to fulfill their end of the deal after holding his $5k for almost a year.

Why exactly do they believe the "business relationship had become untenable"? Were his posts causing more delays somehow? Nope. Were his posts damaging the company? Maybe. Will canceling his order solve this problem? Nope! Will acting professionally and eventually delivering his order solve this problem? Yep!

It absolutely matters what they set out to do. If their intent was to get a 'loan' and not pay him interest, THAT would be an issue. But that's not what happened. What happened was that they took an order thinking they could fill it faster than they actually could. He decided to go full-retard on them, and so they kicked him to the curb. ANY court would be able to see that their actions were not a part of some scam, and were, in fact, only in response to bad behavior on his part.

He dedicated a good portion of his time to spreading FUD about the company, about Josh, about Sonny, about BFL as a company, about developers who are working with them to improve the product, etc, etc, etc.

I need to take exception with this. If I have x Dollars invested in BFL pre-orders, what rational reason would I have for contemplating Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt for BFL essentially being six months behind schedule, with no accurate information for delivery, going on almost a year now.

Do I admit to being a total angry asshole for being strung along ? Yes. Has anything I said been a lie, slanderous, or false ? I certainly hope not; if it is I will apologize and issue a retraction.

The rational response, if you legitmately have fear, uncertainty, and doubt as to whether you'll get your product, would be to request a refund. Acting a fool on the interwebz, going around waving your e-penis in their faces repeatedly, discouraging other people to buy, etc. Is not the action of somebody who LEGITIMATELY has fear, uncertainty and doubt, unless they've first requested a refund. You stated in your email to them that you have faith that they'll deliver. If that's really the case, then you're a hypocrite for trying to scare other people away from the company. If you REALLY have faith in the company, then why all the effort put toward dragging them through the mud?

I said before that I can understand your frustration. I think everybody gets frustrated from time to time, and says things they regret. You however, have on that role like you were being PAID to do it (not saying you were, but that's how hard you've pursued it). Sometimes it takes a reality check to teach us lessons about how we chose to behave toward other people. In some cases, it's some blowhard getting a pile-driver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEqniEvNcnk

Sometimes it's just a blowhard getting his order canceled.

Either way, there's a lesson to be learned here. Chose to learn it, or chose not to...

Again, you're not being sued for slander, or libel. There's no burden of proof of ANYTHING other than bad behavior that would make a company chose to sever business ties with you. There's plenty of proof that you maliciously set out to damage the company. Plenty of grounds for an order cancelation.

If you chose to pursue 'legal action' against them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x90E8NDm0Pw#t=338s

[Xian01]

Either way, there's a lesson to be learned here. Chose to learn it, or chose to...

 Is the lesson learned here that if I wanted ~240GH/s of ASIC SHA256 processors, I should have gone with anyone but Butterfly Labs ?

[wrenchmonkey]

Either way, there's a lesson to be learned here. Chose to learn it, or chose to...

 Is the lesson learned here that if I wanted ~240GH/s of ASIC SHA256 processors, I should have gone with anyone but Butterfly Labs ?

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

[Xian01]

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

I obviously kept the order for this long because I am clearly delusional. It's the only honest answer I can give you. It should be evident that I am way beyond sour grapes and flirting with full-on gourmet vinegar.

[wrenchmonkey]

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

I obviously kept the order for this long because I am clearly delusional. It's the only honest answer I can give you. It should be evident that I am way beyond sour grapes and flirting with full-on gourmet vinegar.

Well, I'm sorry you find yourself in the position you do. I'd be totally bummed if I were in your shoes. Hope you find something useful and profitable to spend your money on. I genuinely hope you do. Good luck. I'm being hard on you, but I do enjoy a lot of your posts, when you're not stirring the pot.

[Bitcoinorama]

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

I obviously kept the order for this long because I am clearly delusional. It's the only honest answer I can give you. It should be evident that I am way beyond sour grapes and flirting with full-on gourmet vinegar.

Well, I'm sorry you find yourself in the position you do. I'd be totally bummed if I were in your shoes. Hope you find something useful and profitable to spend your money on. I genuinely hope you do. Good luck. I'm being hard on you, but I do enjoy a lot of your posts, when you're not stirring the pot.

I'm glad you were humble enough to say that.

[Tehfiend]

If you don't like the company, don't place orders with them. End of story. Full Stop.

End of story? LMAO! You're either a BFL shill or have not been paying attention. When he placed his order 11 months ago how could he predict the extreme delays and Josh's unprofessional behavior towards unhappy customers? He pre-ordered based on their stated delivery goals. Perhaps he is to blame for his lack ability to predict the future...

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

Again if you were paying attention you'd know that BFL has been telling their customers "Will be shipping soon!" over and over for months and months. Back in October when BFL said they would be shipping at the end of the month, if he had known then that they would actually still not be shipping 7 months later then he might have canceled and used those funds on a batch 2 Avalon which would be shipping any day now. That is the lost opportunity caused by BFL's failure to deliver and cancellation of his order without his consent.

It's amazing you are defending BFL's behavior so passionately. Keep it up and maybe Josh will bump your order up in the queue!

[wrenchmonkey]

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

I obviously kept the order for this long because I am clearly delusional. It's the only honest answer I can give you. It should be evident that I am way beyond sour grapes and flirting with full-on gourmet vinegar.

Well, I'm sorry you find yourself in the position you do. I'd be totally bummed if I were in your shoes. Hope you find something useful and profitable to spend your money on. I genuinely hope you do. Good luck. I'm being hard on you, but I do enjoy a lot of your posts, when you're not stirring the pot.

I'm glad you were humble enough to say that.

Meh, I don't think it takes humility to say it. It's true. He seems like a generally decent guy, who got worked up and over-did it. This isn't personal, I've called out several people for trolling. Most of my posts aren't directed toward him, but for the other trolls looking to pile on, and pretend he's the victim.

I think we've all done similar things at some point, and hopefully walked away a little bit wiser, but recognizing the role that you've played is an important step in gaining wisdom.

[darkmule]

(Wall-of-angst Deleted. I've never ever felt this abused a customer before. Filed a complaint with the Missouri AG Customer Complaints dept and the FTC Complaints Dept. Provided a Paypal address to office@bfl to get refunded for $4,698, hopefully, and moving on with my life)

Consider the Kansas AG as well, which is where their corporate address is.  State AGs generally diligently investigate these claims and if nothing else, they will risk not being able to do business at all if they do not answer to the satisfaction of the state AG.

Here's an online form for consumer complaints, but you might consider paper mail instead.  It just looks slightly more serious.

[Malawi]

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

I obviously kept the order for this long because I am clearly delusional. It's the only honest answer I can give you. It should be evident that I am way beyond sour grapes and flirting with full-on gourmet vinegar.

Well, I'm sorry you find yourself in the position you do. I'd be totally bummed if I were in your shoes. Hope you find something useful and profitable to spend your money on. I genuinely hope you do. Good luck. I'm being hard on you, but I do enjoy a lot of your posts, when you're not stirring the pot.

I'm glad you were humble enough to say that.

Meh, I don't think it takes humility to say it. It's true. He seems like a generally decent guy, who got worked up and over-did it. This isn't personal, I've called out several people for trolling. Most of my posts aren't directed toward him, but for the other trolls looking to pile on, and pretend he's the victim.

I think we've all done similar things at some point, and hopefully walked away a little bit wiser, but recognizing the role that you've played is an important step in gaining wisdom.

Guess this sums this whole story up pretty well.

Now we just have to wait and see if the cancellation was a blessing for him.

[Minor Miner]

Erm, genuinely what proof does anyone have that they are specifically singling him out for abuse?

From:     Butterfly Labs <office@butterflylabs.com>
Subject:  Re: Orders to refund
Date:     May 16, 2013 3:30:16 PM CDT
Hello Christian,
After reviewing your account, we have decided to end our business relationship with you.  At this time, we are severing all business ties with you and will be refunding your money.  This decision was based on a number of different factors and is final.

Sincerely,

Butterfly Labs, INC

F**k me, they can't actually do that when they entered an agreement to deliver once the sale completed.  His 'frustration' stems from their inability to deliver despite many broken promises.

The error is entirely on their part. Has Christian openly stated anything libellous in public forums?

A trade is a two-part deal.

Without knowing the exact definition - It seems he have done libellous statements at this forum.

Show us one or you are the one just talking smack about someone.  Show us a "libelious" statement.

[Bitcoinorama]

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

I obviously kept the order for this long because I am clearly delusional. It's the only honest answer I can give you. It should be evident that I am way beyond sour grapes and flirting with full-on gourmet vinegar.

Well, I'm sorry you find yourself in the position you do. I'd be totally bummed if I were in your shoes. Hope you find something useful and profitable to spend your money on. I genuinely hope you do. Good luck. I'm being hard on you, but I do enjoy a lot of your posts, when you're not stirring the pot.

I'm glad you were humble enough to say that.

Meh, I don't think it takes humility to say it. It's true. He seems like a generally decent guy, who got worked up and over-did it. This isn't personal, I've called out several people for trolling. Most of my posts aren't directed toward him, but for the other trolls looking to pile on, and pretend he's the victim.

I think we've all done similar things at some point, and hopefully walked away a little bit wiser, but recognizing the role that you've played is an important step in gaining wisdom.

Indeed, but I still disagree with the way they've handled it.

They are overtly saying criticise us and we will knock your order.

It's very much holding people to ransom, which they are already doing.

Their customers to all intense and purposes after all this time have been very patient and justifiably have every right to complain, though how they choose to do it is a matter for contention. I don't know what or how the OP expressed his distain so can't comment on that.

The only way BFL should be silencing the growing unrest from their customers right now is through daily progress updates, not this.

If anything they should be trying to calm the madding crowd with reassurance and clear and level headed thinking. They should absolutely not be bringing their own emotion into this. The only emotion they should be displaying is passion for their work. I'm serious.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

[wrenchmonkey]

If you don't like the company, don't place orders with them. End of story. Full Stop.

End of story? LMAO! You're either a BFL shill or have not been paying attention. When he placed his order 11 months ago how could he predict the extreme delays and Josh's unprofessional behavior towards unhappy customers? He pre-ordered based on their stated delivery goals. Perhaps he is to blame for his lack ability to predict the future...

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

Again if you were paying attention you'd know that BFL has been telling their customers "Will be shipping soon!" over and over for months and months. Back in October when BFL said they would be shipping at the end of the month, if he had known that they would actually still not be shipping 7 months later then he might have canceled and used those funds on a batch 2 Avalon which would be shipping any day now. That is the lost opportunity caused by BFL's failure to deliver and cancellation of his order without his consent.

It's amazing you are defending BFL's behavior so passionately. Keep it up and maybe Josh will bump your order up in the queue!

...speaking of my last post.  

He didn't have to predict that his order would be delayed. The moment he realized the delays were too much for him is when he should have pulled out. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. But he still continued to place orders, and he continued to troll the forums trying to defame the company at the same time. He needn't have 'predicted' anything.

I get that the idea of 'sunk cost' is a factor in not wanting to cancel his first order, which is why it sucks for him at this point. But again, if he really honestly believed the crap he was posting, he would have canceled his order ages ago. He didn't cancel, which indicates that he didn't believe what he was saying, and instead was just being malicious.

BFL doesn't need his "consent" to cancel the order. They can cancel the order and send a refund, and that's what they did. More people need to understand that a business transaction isn't complete until the order ships. Either party can cancel the order at any time until that point.

I seriously doubt my order will get bumped simply for stating the obvious, and if it did, you would never hear about it, so I guess you'll never know.  

[KGambler]

If you don't like the company, don't place orders with them. End of story. Full Stop.

End of story? LMAO! You're either a BFL shill or have not been paying attention. When he placed his order 11 months ago how could he predict the extreme delays and Josh's unprofessional behavior towards unhappy customers? He pre-ordered based on their stated delivery goals. Perhaps he is to blame for his lack ability to predict the future...

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

Again if you were paying attention you'd know that BFL has been telling their customers "Will be shipping soon!" over and over for months and months. Back in October when BFL said they would be shipping at the end of the month, if he had known then that they would actually still not be shipping 7 months later then he might have canceled and used those funds on a batch 2 Avalon which would be shipping any day now. That is the lost opportunity caused by BFL's failure to deliver and cancellation of his order without his consent.

It's amazing you are defending BFL's behavior so passionately. Keep it up and maybe Josh will bump your order up in the queue!

I think my favorite BFL gambit was Josh's 1,000 BTC guarantee, to be paid to an unspecified charity, that they would fulfill their very lofty power consumption goals.

OP, you should also contact Sonny's parole officer and appraise him of the unsavory tactics BFL has been using to attract and retain capital.  This guy is a convicted con artist, and something stinks here.

[KGambler]

If you don't like the company, don't place orders with them. End of story. Full Stop.

End of story? LMAO! You're either a BFL shill or have not been paying attention. When he placed his order 11 months ago how could he predict the extreme delays and Josh's unprofessional behavior towards unhappy customers? He pre-ordered based on their stated delivery goals. Perhaps he is to blame for his lack ability to predict the future...

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

Again if you were paying attention you'd know that BFL has been telling their customers "Will be shipping soon!" over and over for months and months. Back in October when BFL said they would be shipping at the end of the month, if he had known that they would actually still not be shipping 7 months later then he might have canceled and used those funds on a batch 2 Avalon which would be shipping any day now. That is the lost opportunity caused by BFL's failure to deliver and cancellation of his order without his consent.

It's amazing you are defending BFL's behavior so passionately. Keep it up and maybe Josh will bump your order up in the queue!

...speaking of my last post.  

He didn't have to predict that his order would be delayed. The moment he realized the delays were too much for him is when he should have pulled out. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. But he still continued to place orders, and he continued to troll the forums trying to defame the company at the same time. He needn't have 'predicted' anything.

I get that the idea of 'sunk cost' is a factor in not wanting to cancel his first order, which is why it sucks for him at this point. But again, if he really honestly believed the crap he was posting, he would have canceled his order ages ago. He didn't cancel, which indicates that he didn't believe what he was saying, and instead was just being malicious.

BFL doesn't need his "consent" to cancel the order. They can cancel the order and send a refund, and that's what they did. More people need to understand that a business transaction isn't complete until the order ships. Either party can cancel the order at any time until that point.

I seriously doubt my order will get bumped simply for stating the obvious, and if it did, you would never hear about it, so I guess you'll never know.  

You seem like exactly the type of D-bag they tend to employ at Butterfly Labs.

[Xian01]

He didn't cancel, which indicates that he didn't believe what he was saying, and instead was just being malicious.

1) Pre-order product
2) Get taunted by COO of BFL on Forums. Made to endure one broken promise after another. No shipping date in sight after 11 months of waiting.
3) Call him on his bullshit
4) Repeatedly
5) COO punitively cancels orders from butt-hurt
6) Makes sure pre-order customer also is made to feel butt-hurt - awaiting refund in paypal account

 Is this an accurate assessment of the situation ?

[wrenchmonkey]

If you really believed that, why did you keep an order with them this long? Sour grapes much?

I obviously kept the order for this long because I am clearly delusional. It's the only honest answer I can give you. It should be evident that I am way beyond sour grapes and flirting with full-on gourmet vinegar.

Well, I'm sorry you find yourself in the position you do. I'd be totally bummed if I were in your shoes. Hope you find something useful and profitable to spend your money on. I genuinely hope you do. Good luck. I'm being hard on you, but I do enjoy a lot of your posts, when you're not stirring the pot.

I'm glad you were humble enough to say that.

Meh, I don't think it takes humility to say it. It's true. He seems like a generally decent guy, who got worked up and over-did it. This isn't personal, I've called out several people for trolling. Most of my posts aren't directed toward him, but for the other trolls looking to pile on, and pretend he's the victim.

I think we've all done similar things at some point, and hopefully walked away a little bit wiser, but recognizing the role that you've played is an important step in gaining wisdom.

Indeed, but I still disagree with the way they've handled it.

They are overtly saying criticise us and we will knock your order.

It's very much holding people to ransom, which they are already doing.

Their customers to all intense and purposes after all this time have been very patient and justifiably have every right to complain, though how they choose to do it is a matter for contention. I don't know what or how the OP expressed his distain so can't comment on that.

The only way BFL should be silencing the growing unrest from their customers right now is through daily progress updates, not this.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

I think you have a legitimate point of view. I believe that the IDEAL outcome would be for BFL to ship everybody's orders next week. But that's not an option. I agree that people have a right to be frustrated and complain. I don't know how many different ways I can say it. BFL isn't canceling orders for the occasional complaint or question. They appear to be canceling the orders of the people who are going about trashing BFL like it's their job.