Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[Xian01]

I think that what Xian tried to do was encouraged people who have BFL orders to cancel and bump his order. After seeing a trickle of Jalapenos out of the assembly line to customers hands, he ordered more and doubled his efforts but the plan backfired. I've seen this kind of behavior before from people who were wait-listed/in queue.

I'm sorry, but this does not stand to any reason whatsoever considering my Single SC orders were day one and I had no interest in the Jalapeno line of products.

[Xian01]

The point is the principle of the thing, if you act like a douche, companies may decide you're not worth doing business with. The names of the players involved is immaterial.

Well, lets be a little bit more accurate with that assessment.

Josh Zerlan / Inaba, their COO, was acting like a complete douche here on the forums.

I just called him on it, and obviously struck a strong nerve.

So who is the bigger douche here ?

Newtons third law can be a bitch sometimes

[n4l3hp]

I think that what Xian tried to do was encouraged people who have BFL orders to cancel and bump his order. After seeing a trickle of Jalapenos out of the assembly line to customers hands, he ordered more and doubled his efforts but the plan backfired. I've seen this kind of behavior before from people who were wait-listed/in queue.

I'm sorry, but this does not stand to any reason whatsoever considering my Single SC orders were day one and I had no interest in the Jalapeno line of products.

Even if you didn't have a Jalapeno ordered, it will still have an effect on the other products. Let's face it, most people tend to panic when they see/read something bad about the company they ordered their devices from.

[Tehfiend]

LMAO, conspiracy theories abound!

Yup, you caught me. I'm A BFL shill account who bought 100 Avalon Chips and is getting in on the Klondike project, just to throw you off my trail.  



Or maybe, I just don't automatically jump into the hive mentality and tribalism that you primitive fucking lunatics all seem to be so wont to wrap yourselves in. Same kind of retards who get into brawls over your favorite sports teams.

BFL isn't perfect, they've missed targets several times. Avalon isn't perfect, ASICMiner isn't perfect. But I'm not involved in any of those companies, except to have ordered products from two of them, so this 'pick a team and fight for them' mentality is retarded. I don't have a 'side'. I'm in the game to try and make some money. Putting all your eggs in one basket (be it avalon, BFL, or anybody else) is foolish, IMHO.

I'd be offering a similar response if somebody had let their mouths run them out of Avalon or ASICMiner as well. But those companies aren't the 'hip' ones to troll on this forum, so all of the lemmings here think that if they want to be a 'cool kid' they have to trash BFL.

Fine. Say and do what you want, trash whoever you want. Just don't come crying when the companies you're trashing kick your ass to the curb.

Make up shit, forge order documentation and post false shipping manifests. Just don't come crying if/when you get your ass sued for libel/defamation.

Notice all of the immature insults you so easily throw around. Anybody that disagrees with you is a "troll" or "retard". I find it hilarious that you claim the BFL hate found here is motivated by the desire to be a "hip cool kid". You really can't imagine people are motivated by the misleading updates, lies, and extreme delays? Nope, it's because it's cool to troll BFL and what a hero you are for calling them out!

I don't "have a side" either and originally had pre-orders with both BFL and Bitsyncom. I've questioned the many things that don't add up with Bitsyncom and have been critical of their delays as well without any fear of retribution from Yufi. The fact is that they are handling themselves very differently than BFL which is the reason the response from customers and critics are very different. It has nothing to do with what's hip or cool...

[dan99]

he blames on parts, delivery, not meeting his low power requirements, blame this and that and now blame the authorities .. the word is excuses.

[Tehfiend]

Wrenchmonkey,
For someone with ZERO sknin in the game, your emotional attachment does cause pause.

Emotional attachment? Having an opinion on people's flagrant asshattery is "emotional attachment?"

I'm not sure what you mean by "Zero skin in the game" either. I don't own any stock in, nor am I an employee of, any ASIC mining hardware company. I'd wager that you don't either. And neither do MOST people on this forum. By that standard, there's a whole lot of "no-skin-in-the-game"-having people, whose emotions ARE in fact running high. You fail at logic, my friend; hard.

I would agree that is appears you have an emotional attachment. Look at the number of posts you have made in this thread defending BFL and trashing it's detractors with insults. Do you have any BFL pre-orders?

[Henchman24]

So who is the bigger douche here ?

You are.  Hands down.  Not even close.

[minternj]

Biggest mistake is to think anything that has to do with ASIC's should conform to expectations of a conventional business. I like to label the entire Bitcoin economy as "Grey" and ASIC economy as dark Grey. If you don't get this than you are in a fantasy world, or havent been dealing in the bitcoin economy for too long.

[wrenchmonkey]

The point is the principle of the thing, if you act like a douche, companies may decide you're not worth doing business with. The names of the players involved is immaterial.

Well, lets be a little bit more accurate with that assessment.

Josh Zerlan / Inaba, their COO, was acting like a complete douche here on the forums.

I just called him on it, and obviously struck a strong nerve.

So who is the bigger douche here ?

Newtons third law can be a bitch sometimes

IF that were the case, this discussion wouldn't be happening. This isn't about 1-2 interactions where you lost your cool, or called somebody out. It's about a PATTERN where the majority of your recent posts on the forum have been trashing the company. I'm inclined to believe your blacklisting has FAR more to do with that pattern, than any isolated incident, such as telling the COO to eat a bag of dicks. You're clearly beyond seeing the distinction between losing ones cool, and a pattern of defamatory behavior. Ipso facto, 'Here sitteth thou, in the seat of the scornful.'

Newton's 3rd law, indeed.  

LMAO, conspiracy theories abound!

Yup, you caught me. I'm A BFL shill account who bought 100 Avalon Chips and is getting in on the Klondike project, just to throw you off my trail.  



Or maybe, I just don't automatically jump into the hive mentality and tribalism that you primitive fucking lunatics all seem to be so wont to wrap yourselves in. Same kind of retards who get into brawls over your favorite sports teams.

BFL isn't perfect, they've missed targets several times. Avalon isn't perfect, ASICMiner isn't perfect. But I'm not involved in any of those companies, except to have ordered products from two of them, so this 'pick a team and fight for them' mentality is retarded. I don't have a 'side'. I'm in the game to try and make some money. Putting all your eggs in one basket (be it avalon, BFL, or anybody else) is foolish, IMHO.

I'd be offering a similar response if somebody had let their mouths run them out of Avalon or ASICMiner as well. But those companies aren't the 'hip' ones to troll on this forum, so all of the lemmings here think that if they want to be a 'cool kid' they have to trash BFL.

Fine. Say and do what you want, trash whoever you want. Just don't come crying when the companies you're trashing kick your ass to the curb.

Make up shit, forge order documentation and post false shipping manifests. Just don't come crying if/when you get your ass sued for libel/defamation.

Notice all of the immature insults you so easily throw around. Anybody that disagrees with you is a "troll" or "retard". I find it hilarious that you claim the BFL hate found here is motivated by the desire to be a "hip cool kid". You really can't imagine people are motivated by the misleading updates, lies, and extreme delays? Nope, it's because it's cool to troll BFL and what a hero you are for calling them out!

I don't "have a side" either and originally had pre-orders with both BFL and Bitsyncom. I've questioned the many things that don't add up with Bitsyncom and have been critical of their delays as well without any fear of retribution from Yufi. The fact is that they are handling themselves very differently than BFL which is the reason the response from customers and critics are very different. It has nothing to do with what's hip or cool...

You're mischaracterizing my point (shocking). Never have I said that frustration isn't warranted. I've never absolved BFL of any wrongdoing. And I've never said that BFL and their reps haven't contributed to some of the frustration. Most of the time, however, that I've seen Josh lash out is toward trolls who come out of the gate swinging. Not toward people who can frame their questions and opinions in a respectful manner.

There are plenty of threads addressing the real or imagined wrongs of BFL. This one is regarding the imagined wrong of BFL canceling the orders of a proven troll. Not about shipping delays, project management, etc.

Never have I said that the OPs frustration wasn't warranted or valid either (in fact, I've said more than once that it WAS). His feelings/emotions aren't what's being called into question here. Feelings/emotions are COMPLETELY separate from BEHAVIORS.

It's not his feelings that got him banned, it was his BEHAVIOR that got him banned. He poked the bear, and the bear didn't react. He poked the bear again, and it growled. Then he poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, then then acted surprised and hurt when the bear ran him out the cave.

Are you people REALLY so clueless as to not be able to differentiate being emotional and frustrated, from being a troll? I didn't say that anybody who disagrees with me is a troll or an idiot. All I did was point out that the people who ARE trolls, are acting like trolls (OP included), and shouldn't expect to behave however they want with impunity.

The people who are incapable of/unwilling to see the distinction between the many frustrated customers who have grown impatient, from the people who have decided to start dedicating a significant effort to dragging the company through the mud... THOSE who can't understand that distinction (yeah, this includes you) ARE IDIOTS. Period. Full Stop. End of story.

[Xian01]

So who is the bigger douche here ?

You are.  Hands down.  Not even close.

 Noted. Hey, I'll be the first to admit I can be an asshole, but I'm working on getting better.

 Everyone has a breaking point, and I obviously hit mine with respect to this transaction.

[Syke]

It's not his feelings that got him banned, it was his BEHAVIOR that got him banned. He poked the bear, and the bear didn't react. He poked the bear again, and it growled. Then he poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, then then acted surprised and hurt when the bear ran him out the cave.

"We'll ship in October." "We'll ship in November." "We'll ship in December." "We'll ship in January." "We'll ship in February." "We'll ship in March." "We'll ship in April." "We'll ship in May."

No, this is BFL's fault. They are the one doing all the "poking".

[wrenchmonkey]

So who is the bigger douche here ?

You are.  Hands down.  Not even close.

 Noted. Hey, I'll be the first to admit I can be an asshole, but I'm working on getting better.

 Everyone has a breaking point, and I obviously hit mine with respect to this transaction.

And it takes a big person to admit that.

However, your admission seems hollow when it's prefaced by several pages of persecution complex, and attempts at using bureaucratic agencies to exact your vengeance.  

[minternj]

It's not his feelings that got him banned, it was his BEHAVIOR that got him banned. He poked the bear, and the bear didn't react. He poked the bear again, and it growled. Then he poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, and poked, then then acted surprised and hurt when the bear ran him out the cave.

"We'll ship in October." "We'll ship in November." "We'll ship in December." "We'll ship in January." "We'll ship in February." "We'll ship in March." "We'll ship in April." "We'll ship in May."

No, this is BFL's fault. They are the one doing all the "poking".

Yes they missed targets. You as a consumer can vote with your money. Get a refund, buy asicminer, avalon, GPUs, abacuses. If you have been waiting so long for BFL that it is bringing you emotional pain, cut the pain out and get a refund.

[Xian01]

using bureaucratic agencies to exact your vengeance.

 Correction: Using bureaucratic agencies to shed light on a company that openly has contempt for it's customers, fires those customers after they've endured one delay after another, one broken promise after another, more taunting and unprofessionalism from an officer of the company - after calling them out on it in a public forum. This is not normal behavior to see from a product developer. I don't know what country you live in, or what other companies you have dealt with that treated you similarly, and think it's OK.

 In retrospect, I should indeed have taken a refund sooner rather than having one forced on me. Captain Hindsight and so on and so forth.
 
 

[noedaRDH]

This all stinks of a company....

The whole company stinks to high heaven. Sonny Vleisides, a smart, slippery con artist who ran a mail order scam for six years, stealing $20 million from the elderly and naive with no sense of remorse, stinks. The people he surrounds himself with stink: Dennis Emmet, his associate in the mail order scam, killed a guy in an argument. He's in a Costa Rican prison for murder. It's all in the affidavit, go read it.

Imagine what goes through a guy like Sonny's head when he sees an opportunity like bitcoin. Now he's running Butterfly Labs. Perhaps it's a natural evolution of The Shamrock Agency and Old Amsterdam, his two other scam companies.

Even if it is somehow legitimate, imagine what is happening behind closed doors with these people. Get your money out while you still can.

Watch out, those BFL lovers are not gonna appreciate those comments.

[noedaRDH]

Well well. What do we have here. You've been waiting for 11 month. You were posting negative things about BFL and they found out about this. Now the order is due for cancel & refund and you started to whine like a little girl. We all so brave on the internet, as long as our identities are kept confidential, right?

BFL: please go ahead and refund that idiot. Make an example of him so the rest of the crowd will think twice before they post. 4 singles to be removed from the queue - that means that majority of folks will get their hardware faster (assuming the order is 11 month old).

Way to go!

How come all these pro-BFL posts read the same? Wouldn't surprised me if BFL just made multiple troll accounts to ridicule their critics.

[Tehfiend]

Most of the time, however, that I've seen Josh lash out is toward trolls who come out of the gate swinging. Not toward people who can frame their questions and opinions in a respectful manner.

We must be reading different forums. You can simply look at my exchanges with Josh. Two or three times now he's replied to me with something along the lines of "your post is so dumb I don't know where to begin". He takes the time to reply to me to say I'm wrong but for some reason can never find where to begin and explain how I am wrong and never once addresses any of the points I make. I don't use petty insults and I post legitimate points based on facts that I take the time to quote and link sources for but all he can muster is insults in return. My points might be wrong but insulting me isn't going to show me the error of my ways.

It's not his feelings that got him banned, it was his BEHAVIOR that got him banned.

He wasn't banned. He had his orders involuntarily canceled after waiting almost 11 months with almost 5k of his dollars on the line. The problem here is that people keep wanting to frame this as a business refusing service to a bad customer. Back in June, BFL is the one that needed his money and trust to help them bring ASIC miners to market. The fact is that BFL has had his money for almost a year while they failed time after time to deliver on their end of the deal that he based his decision to order on. The LEAST they can do is turn the other cheek when he's justifiable upset about their failures. His ranting does not impact their ability to do business like a rowdy restaurant customer that needs to be refused service. Their angry customers deserve their understanding and compassion, not retribution. The ABC picture above really does hit the nail on the head! LOL

[wrenchmonkey]

using bureaucratic agencies to exact your vengeance.

 Correction: Using bureaucratic agencies to shed light on a company that openly has contempt for it's customers, fires those customers after they've endured one delay after another, one broken promise after another, more taunting and unprofessionalism from an officer of the company, after calling them out on it in a public forum. This is not normal behavior to see from a product developer. I don't know what country you live in, or what other companies you have dealt with that treated you similarly, and think it's OK.

 In retrospect, I should indeed have taken a refund. Captain Hindsight and so on and so forth.
 
 

Pre-orders are a risky business. They're fraught with delays. Anybody who buys into a pre-order with pre-conceived notions other than "I'll get this eventually, and be among the first to get it, when they FINALLY come" needs to reevaluate their participation in pre-orders.

I've personally handled group buys/preorders in the past as well. I refuse to do them anymore, because something ALWAYS happens, and you end up 'breaking promises' due to circumstances beyond your control. When pre-orders have been delayed in the past, I've offered people the option to obtain refunds. The people who didn't want to wait anymore took the refunds. Some took refunds faster than others, some waited longer than others, but every single one of them had the common sense to recognize that the ball was in THEIR court. If they chose to continue to wait, then that choice was on THEM, not on me. If people had started trashing me, I'd have refunded their pre-order money as well. In the end, the reasonable people all walked away no worse for the wear. The people who waited got their product eventually. The people who didn't, got their money.

And people have BEGGED me to run similar pre-orders since. But I don't do it anymore, even though 99.9% of the people involved were reasonable throughout the whole thing. I think the majority of BFL buyers are the same way (reasonable, that is), but the vocal majority sure to make it suck for everybody else.

Bureaucratic agencies aren't there to repair hurt feelings, or to punish companies for saying things that strike you as 'unprofessional'. They're there to address cases of ACTUAL fraud, which you've admitted you don't believe is the case. Hence, your behavior and decision to waste the time of those agencies is childish and petty, and worthy of nothing but scorn and contempt.

But keep digging, I guess...

[k9quaint]

Notice the ALL CAPS rage that wrenchmonkey/BFL PR picked up from Amy's Baking Company. Combining the white hot internet rants of Amy with the douche+troll broken record track of Joshclown is pure genius.

Also note that the BFL dissent went from a "few trolls" to a "hive mind" and now all of bitcointalk is made of "fucking trolls and douches". Sound familiar?

Also note, the wrenchmonkey account was created April 16th 2013. All of a sudden he is a rabid BFL supporter.

[Xian01]

and worthy of nothing but scorn and contempt.
But keep digging, I guess...

 Again, I need to disagree that my actions are worthy of scorn and contempt. I am merely reacting to stimulus.