Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[Tehfiend]

Yes they missed targets. You as a consumer can vote with your money. Get a refund, buy asicminer, avalon, GPUs, abacuses. If you have been waiting so long for BFL that it is bringing you emotional pain, cut the pain out and get a refund.

I'm so tired of this "vote with your money" line. He did vote when he placed his orders! It's like saying that because you can vote, you should never complain about what a politician does after the election. He voted for a guy that did not live up to his campaign promises and he can't go back and change his vote. Can he use his refunded money to now buy a batch 1/2/3 Avalon? NOPE! Getting a refund does not cut out this pain. BFL's failures have already lost him a LOT of opportunity and a refund will not change that.

[noedaRDH]

You know, if BFL was considerate, somewhat on schedule with their promises, and didn't have a PR guy coming in here treating his customers like his enemies, then maybe people wouldn't get so upset with the company. You can make as many excuses as you want for BFL, but the fact is that many rational and reasonable customers are not happy. You can't simply tell me that they're all idiots or are trolling for the sake of trolling. BFL simply gets away with it because they're out of the physical reach of most of their customers.

[wrenchmonkey]

Most of the time, however, that I've seen Josh lash out is toward trolls who come out of the gate swinging. Not toward people who can frame their questions and opinions in a respectful manner.

We must be reading different forums. You can simply look at my exchanges with Josh. Two or three times now he's replied to me with something along the lines of "your post is so dumb I don't know where to begin". He takes the time to reply to me to say I'm wrong but for some reason can never find where to begin and explain how I am wrong and never once addresses any of the points I make. I don't use petty insults and I post legitimate points based on facts that I take the time to quote and link sources for but all he can muster is insults in return. My points might be wrong but insulting me isn't going to show me the error of my ways.

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

It's not his feelings that got him banned, it was his BEHAVIOR that got him banned

He wasn't banned. He had his orders involuntarily canceled after waiting almost 11 months with almost 5k of his dollars on the line. The problem here is that people keep wanting to frame this as a business refusing service to a bad customer. Back in June, BFL is the one that needed his money and trust to help them bring ASIC miners to market. The fact is that BFL has had his money for almost a year while they failed time after time to deliver on their end of the deal that he based his decision to order on. The LEAST they can do is turn the other cheek when he's justifiable upset about their failures. His ranting does not impact their ability to do business like a rowdy restaurant customer that needs to be refused service. Their angry customers deserve their understanding and compassion, not retribution. The ABC picture above really does hit the nail on the head! LOL

No, his orders weren't just canceled, he was banned from doing business with them. Do you think he's allowed to place another order? Doubt it. This constitutes a ban (ie blacklisting). Look it up: dictionary.com.

They have 'turned the other cheek'. Again, you are willfully ignorant of the facts here. This isn't an isolated incident where he lost his cool. He made a habit of trashing them at every opportunity. You don't think that him (and others like him) turning up in every thread that mentions BFL in order to spread FUD and vitriol impacts their business? REEEEALY?  

Go try and run a restaurant with people pissing all over the windows all the time, and see how that works out for you.

"Sir, you need to stop pissing on the windows, or leave."
"But I'm a customer! I'm waiting on my order, and I'm just doing whatever I feel like while I wait!"
"That doesn't give you license to piss on the windows. Here's your money back, now leave, and don't come back."
"Do you see him repressing me? Help, help, I'm being repressed!"

[k9quaint]

Yes they missed targets. You as a consumer can vote with your money. Get a refund, buy asicminer, avalon, GPUs, abacuses. If you have been waiting so long for BFL that it is bringing you emotional pain, cut the pain out and get a refund.

I'm so tired of this "vote with your money" line. He did vote when he placed his orders! It's like saying that because you can vote, you should never complain about what a politician does after the election. He voted for a guy that did not live up to his campaign promises and he can't go back and change his vote. Can he use his refunded money to now buy a batch 1/2/3 Avalon? NOPE! Getting a refund does not cut out this pain. BFL's failures have already lost him a LOT of opportunity and a refund will not change that.

Minternj is selling that same old line for a reason:

Name:   minternj
Posts:   187
Position:   Full Member
Date Registered:   March 30, 2013, 09:46:18 PM
Last Active:   Today at 04:48:53 PM

He went straight from the newbie forum to a BFL thread and has been posting a maniacal defense of BFL ever since.

[Fuzzy]

Yes they missed targets. You as a consumer can vote with your money. Get a refund, buy asicminer, avalon, GPUs, abacuses. If you have been waiting so long for BFL that it is bringing you emotional pain, cut the pain out and get a refund.

I'm so tired of this "vote with your money" line. He did vote when he placed his orders! It's like saying that because you can vote, you should never complain about what a politician does after the election. He voted for a guy that did not live up to his campaign promises and he can't go back and change his vote. Can he use his refunded money to now buy a batch 1/2/3 Avalon? NOPE! Getting a refund does not cut out this pain. BFL's failures have already lost him a LOT of opportunity and a refund will not change that.

 There should be a support group...

[Xian01]

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

 Josh ? Is that you talking about yourself in third person again ?
 
 I mean, this is getting just scary now to watch.

[k9quaint]

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

 Josh ? Is that you talking about yourself in third person again ?

Wrenchmonkey was even posting in BFL threads in the newbies forum.

[minternj]

Yes they missed targets. You as a consumer can vote with your money. Get a refund, buy asicminer, avalon, GPUs, abacuses. If you have been waiting so long for BFL that it is bringing you emotional pain, cut the pain out and get a refund.

I'm so tired of this "vote with your money" line. He did vote when he placed his orders! It's like saying that because you can vote, you should never complain about what a politician does after the election. He voted for a guy that did not live up to his campaign promises and he can't go back and change his vote. Can he use his refunded money to now buy a batch 1/2/3 Avalon? NOPE! Getting a refund does not cut out this pain. BFL's failures have already lost him a LOT of opportunity and a refund will not change that.

Why are you tired of it? Its like saying im tired of taxes so i wont pay it. Just becuase you grow tired of an idea or statement or law doesnt make it any less valid.  Point is when they missed the 3rd or 4th date you oculd have still bought avalon batch 2. Asicminer sold what last week? Could buy a asicminer and get it in a week. So the real problem is you put all your eggs in one basket and it didnt becoome a magical money tree so you are mad. Oh well, risk is risk. Bitching aobut it ENDLESSLY wont make the product magically appear. We've all seen the bitching in about 3 or 4 posts a week hour, get a refund so you dont have to take tums or whatever and get a good nights sleep.

[noedaRDH]

using bureaucratic agencies to exact your vengeance.

 Correction: Using bureaucratic agencies to shed light on a company that openly has contempt for it's customers, fires those customers after they've endured one delay after another, one broken promise after another, more taunting and unprofessionalism from an officer of the company, after calling them out on it in a public forum. This is not normal behavior to see from a product developer. I don't know what country you live in, or what other companies you have dealt with that treated you similarly, and think it's OK.

 In retrospect, I should indeed have taken a refund. Captain Hindsight and so on and so forth.
 
 

Pre-orders are a risky business. They're fraught with delays. Anybody who buys into a pre-order with pre-conceived notions other than "I'll get this eventually, and be among the first to get it, when they FINALLY come" needs to reevaluate their participation in pre-orders.

I've personally handled group buys/preorders in the past as well. I refuse to do them anymore, because something ALWAYS happens, and you end up 'breaking promises' due to circumstances beyond your control. When pre-orders have been delayed in the past, I've offered people the option to obtain refunds. The people who didn't want to wait anymore took the refunds. Some took refunds faster than others, some waited longer than others, but every single one of them had the common sense to recognize that the ball was in THEIR court. If they chose to continue to wait, then that choice was on THEM, not on me. If people had started trashing me, I'd have refunded their pre-order money as well. In the end, the reasonable people all walked away no worse for the wear. The people who waited got their product eventually. The people who didn't, got their money.

And people have BEGGED me to run similar pre-orders since. But I don't do it anymore, even though 99.9% of the people involved were reasonable throughout the whole thing. I think the majority of BFL buyers are the same way (reasonable, that is), but the vocal majority sure to make it suck for everybody else.

Bureaucratic agencies aren't there to repair hurt feelings, or to punish companies for saying things that strike you as 'unprofessional'. They're there to address cases of ACTUAL fraud, which you've admitted you don't believe is the case. Hence, your behavior and decision to waste the time of those agencies is childish and petty, and worthy of nothing but scorn and contempt.

But keep digging, I guess...

Too bad you're not BFL. You're just some random joe blow on a forum, you're not a professional company, which is what BFL is aspiring to be. There's the difference.

In your world, customers would never complain about BFL and just sit there for another year, am I right?

[wrenchmonkey]

and worthy of nothing but scorn and contempt.
But keep digging, I guess...

 Again, I need to disagree that my actions are worthy of scorn and contempt. I am merely reacting to stimulus.

"Reacting" is a good word. It's differentiated from "responding", as reaction doesn't imply any thought. Reacting to stimulis is what inanimate items and non-sentient creatures do.

Sentient beings get better results through responding (which is a higher order to reaction, in that it involves an intellectual aspect; considering more than just merely reacting to raw stimulus). Try it sometime.

Since you're working on that whole 'self-improvement' thing, this might be a good jumping off point.

[Xian01]

Since you're working on that whole 'self-improvement' thing, this might be a good jumping off point.

 Thanks Josh. At least one of us is trying.

[wrenchmonkey]

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

 Josh ? Is that you talking about yourself in third person again ?

Wrenchmonkey was even posting in BFL threads in the newbies forum.

You mean the one where I cautioned people not to place any new orders until there was actual independent proof of an ASIC product in the wild? The one where I stated that BFL ASICs were "vaporware" until that happened?  

[wrenchmonkey]

using bureaucratic agencies to exact your vengeance.

 Correction: Using bureaucratic agencies to shed light on a company that openly has contempt for it's customers, fires those customers after they've endured one delay after another, one broken promise after another, more taunting and unprofessionalism from an officer of the company, after calling them out on it in a public forum. This is not normal behavior to see from a product developer. I don't know what country you live in, or what other companies you have dealt with that treated you similarly, and think it's OK.

 In retrospect, I should indeed have taken a refund. Captain Hindsight and so on and so forth.
 
 

Pre-orders are a risky business. They're fraught with delays. Anybody who buys into a pre-order with pre-conceived notions other than "I'll get this eventually, and be among the first to get it, when they FINALLY come" needs to reevaluate their participation in pre-orders.

I've personally handled group buys/preorders in the past as well. I refuse to do them anymore, because something ALWAYS happens, and you end up 'breaking promises' due to circumstances beyond your control. When pre-orders have been delayed in the past, I've offered people the option to obtain refunds. The people who didn't want to wait anymore took the refunds. Some took refunds faster than others, some waited longer than others, but every single one of them had the common sense to recognize that the ball was in THEIR court. If they chose to continue to wait, then that choice was on THEM, not on me. If people had started trashing me, I'd have refunded their pre-order money as well. In the end, the reasonable people all walked away no worse for the wear. The people who waited got their product eventually. The people who didn't, got their money.

And people have BEGGED me to run similar pre-orders since. But I don't do it anymore, even though 99.9% of the people involved were reasonable throughout the whole thing. I think the majority of BFL buyers are the same way (reasonable, that is), but the vocal majority sure to make it suck for everybody else.

Bureaucratic agencies aren't there to repair hurt feelings, or to punish companies for saying things that strike you as 'unprofessional'. They're there to address cases of ACTUAL fraud, which you've admitted you don't believe is the case. Hence, your behavior and decision to waste the time of those agencies is childish and petty, and worthy of nothing but scorn and contempt.

But keep digging, I guess...

Too bad you're not BFL. You're just some random joe blow on a forum, you're not a professional company, which is what BFL is aspiring to be. There's the difference.

In your world, customers would never complain about BFL and just sit there for another year, am I right?

[bangs head on wall repeatedly]

Complaining is one thing. Trolling is another. Plenty of people have complained without a ban. I don't know how many more times I can state this to you idiots. Complaining =/= trolling. Complaining =/= blacklisting. Trolling MIGHT get you blacklisted.

You people really belong in an institution...

[Xian01]

You people really belong in an institution...

 Now now Josh, what have I said in the past about you and glass houses...

[k9quaint]

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

 Josh ? Is that you talking about yourself in third person again ?

Wrenchmonkey was even posting in BFL threads in the newbies forum.

You mean the one where I cautioned people not to place any new orders until there was actual independent proof of an ASIC product in the wild? The one where I stated that BFL ASICs were "vaporware" until that happened?  

Name:   wrenchmonkey
Posts:   283
Position:   Sr. Member
Date Registered:   April 16, 2013, 01:09:04 AM
36 out of last 40 posts are defending BFL.

Here is you in the newbie forum talking about your order with BFL.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg1932676#msg1932676

[wrenchmonkey]

You people really belong in an institution...

 Now now Josh, what have I said in the past about you and glass houses...

You've lost the argument, so now you've resorted to insisting that I am Josh? You truly ARE out of ideas.

Game. Set. Match.  

[Xian01]

Game. Set. Match.  

Not yet. Patience.

[ThatDGuy]

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

 Josh ? Is that you talking about yourself in third person again ?

Wrenchmonkey was even posting in BFL threads in the newbies forum.

You mean the one where I cautioned people not to place any new orders until there was actual independent proof of an ASIC product in the wild? The one where I stated that BFL ASICs were "vaporware" until that happened?  

Name:   wrenchmonkey
Posts:   283
Position:   Sr. Member
Date Registered:   April 16, 2013, 01:09:04 AM
36 out of last 40 posts are defending BFL.

Here is you in the newbie forum talking about your order with BFL.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg1932676#msg1932676

It took literally one minute of searching to find the post he was referencing.

BFL is vaporware until it actually ships. No way in hell I'd send payment in bitcoins for an ebay transaction for a product that doesn't even exist yet.

I was pretty sure that ebay banned selling products you don't actually have. I'd report the sellers, and then run like hell from that scam.

The day I see confirmed customers receiving their Butterfly products is the day I order one. Not a moment before. Does that mean I'll be behind the curve? Maybe, but then again, I also won't be giving out interest free loans on thousands of dollars...

[wrenchmonkey]

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

 Josh ? Is that you talking about yourself in third person again ?

Wrenchmonkey was even posting in BFL threads in the newbies forum.

You mean the one where I cautioned people not to place any new orders until there was actual independent proof of an ASIC product in the wild? The one where I stated that BFL ASICs were "vaporware" until that happened?  

Name:   wrenchmonkey
Posts:   283
Position:   Sr. Member
Date Registered:   April 16, 2013, 01:09:04 AM
36 out of last 40 posts are defending BFL.

Here is you in the newbie forum talking about your order with BFL.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg1932676#msg1932676

Now, now, it looks like you're intentionally ignoring THIS:

BFL is vaporware until it actually ships. No way in hell I'd send payment in bitcoins for an ebay transaction for a product that doesn't even exist yet.

I was pretty sure that ebay banned selling products you don't actually have. I'd report the sellers, and then run like hell from that scam.

The day I see confirmed customers receiving their Butterfly products is the day I order one. Not a moment before. Does that mean I'll be behind the curve? Maybe, but then again, I also won't be giving out interest free loans on thousands of dollars...

Your argument is rendered invalid, 'tard.

[k9quaint]

That's because your posts ARE dumb, dude. You're an imbecile, in every sense of the word. You're intentionally obtuse. NOTHING will show you the error of your ways. You can't see the distinction between 'being frustrated' and 'being a troll'. Go figure that Josh also thinks you're an idiot. You ARE.

 Josh ? Is that you talking about yourself in third person again ?

Wrenchmonkey was even posting in BFL threads in the newbies forum.

You mean the one where I cautioned people not to place any new orders until there was actual independent proof of an ASIC product in the wild? The one where I stated that BFL ASICs were "vaporware" until that happened?  

Name:   wrenchmonkey
Posts:   283
Position:   Sr. Member
Date Registered:   April 16, 2013, 01:09:04 AM
36 out of last 40 posts are defending BFL.

Here is you in the newbie forum talking about your order with BFL.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg1932676#msg1932676

Now, now, it looks like you're intentionally ignoring THIS:

BFL is vaporware until it actually ships. No way in hell I'd send payment in bitcoins for an ebay transaction for a product that doesn't even exist yet.

I was pretty sure that ebay banned selling products you don't actually have. I'd report the sellers, and then run like hell from that scam.

The day I see confirmed customers receiving their Butterfly products is the day I order one. Not a moment before. Does that mean I'll be behind the curve? Maybe, but then again, I also won't be giving out interest free loans on thousands of dollars...

Your argument is rendered invalid, 'tard.

That was a post in a thread about buying BFL pre-orders off of Ebay, not ordering from BFL in general.
And yes, you did mention that BFL was vaporware until it shipped. Then 3 posts later you bought one.

@ThatDGuy: you should read the thread he posted that in, and then read his next 3 posts and the threads he posted them in. If only you had taken more than 1 minute...