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Author Topic: Religious beliefs on bitcoin  (Read 22247 times)
Tekkna
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June 23, 2013, 03:46:46 AM
 #661

I'm not seeing the logical connection between athiesm and charity, and I certainly don't know if you could derive charity in an entirely athiestic worldview. Now, certainly there are athiestic charities, however I don't know if there is a connection directly between athiesm and charity. And certainly no driving force of it, I guess you could arbitrarily decide if it was good to donate to charities?


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have atheists done anything for the good of man?
vs.
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does athiesm lead logically to charity

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Apologies in advance if you don't like my tone, given this media is far from my first choice. I would prefer to leave you to your way of being and encourage you to focus on growing the good in the world.
Comparatively you almost sound pro-thiest  Cheesy

I also knew someone who was beaten for his belief in God, although this was in a public school.

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It takes all types of people to make a society. Looking at a simply breakdown like Myer Briggs Colours you see the general population divides up, and about 3% in general are more logically minded and they tend to think along the lines of reason and logic. It is through this lens you can begin to see that God is not a personal god, but actually a metaphor for the fundamental laws of physics. And why call him god anyway it is a delusion. (These are the inventors - problem solvers) typically called athletes
That's not a logically valid statement.

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So dumbed down if you want a world run by non profits - get rid of the green and replaced with gold, oh and those tools you use (the wheel, metallurgy, the plow, the printing press, the internet, ) well there source is from the marginalized innovators.

Community work and altruistic contributions to society from the innovators abound today - you just need to know where to look - Bitcoin and other OSS is testimony to that.
I don't think anyone wants a world ruled by non-profits?

Further, bitcoin and OSS are all nice I use both (Currently running Ubuntu exclusively, with all OSS tools), however the goal of OSS as I understand it (feel free to reference material that says otherwise) is that many people together can create something better than commercial software, not that someone in need would benefit, indeed Linux has only rencently even become user friendly, it used to be a bunch of hackers attempting to create awesome software, usability left off to the side.

Bitcoin, as far as I know was not created for charitable means.

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The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
This is the type of thing I am speaking of, athiest use language like this all the time. Word twisting fairly rude, this is basically an ad-hominem attack more than anything else.


Athiesm:
The belief that the universe was empty, then it wasn't, then splat you have the entire Universe. Your ancestors are monkeys, and black people are racially inferior because they are more monkey like. Objective morality doesn't exist, so Hitler was A-OK as long as he thought he was doing good and didn't think the Jews were human. And really even if they were, we're all just molecules in motion. What if a pile of molecules stop moving, who cares?


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June 23, 2013, 04:20:04 AM
 #662

People are naturally charitable. It's in our DNA, since we are a social species that tends to live in packs. Wolves are charitable to members of their pack as well. So, with non-profits, some people start them because they are charitable, and some people start them because they are charitable, and use Christianity as an excuse for why they feel that way.

Theism:
The belief that the universe was empty, then it wasn't, then splat you have a god who then goes on to create the entire Universe.

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June 23, 2013, 06:28:07 AM
 #663

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The belief that the universe was empty, then it wasn't, then splat you have a god who then goes on to create the entire Universe.
God is the eternal self-existing one, there was never a time when God was not present.

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People are naturally charitable. It's in our DNA, since we are a social species that tends to live in packs. Wolves are charitable to members of their pack as well. So, with non-profits, some people start them because they are charitable, and some people start them because they are charitable, and use Christianity as an excuse for why they feel that way.

Interesting, do you have source for charitable DNA? And what do you see as the primary advantage of charity, doesn't that conflict with Social Darwinianism?

Further, Christians are more likely to be charitable, as charitable-ness is a command in Christianity, I reject that people are simply using Christianity as an excuse to be charitable.

Athiests might be charitable, if they want to loose the extra money, or time, but experience speaks that unless you have an over abundance of either you are unlikely to be charitable. Humans are inherently greedy (which I doubt you would dis-agree with, even from a purely atheistic world-view).


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June 23, 2013, 08:55:20 AM
 #664

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The belief that the universe was empty, then it wasn't, then splat you have a god who then goes on to create the entire Universe.
God is the eternal self-existing one, there was never a time when God was not present.

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People are naturally charitable. It's in our DNA, since we are a social species that tends to live in packs. Wolves are charitable to members of their pack as well. So, with non-profits, some people start them because they are charitable, and some people start them because they are charitable, and use Christianity as an excuse for why they feel that way.

Interesting, do you have source for charitable DNA? And what do you see as the primary advantage of charity, doesn't that conflict with Social Darwinianism?

Further, Christians are more likely to be charitable, as charitable-ness is a command in Christianity, I reject that people are simply using Christianity as an excuse to be charitable.

Athiests might be charitable, if they want to loose the extra money, or time, but experience speaks that unless you have an over abundance of either you are unlikely to be charitable. Humans are inherently greedy (which I doubt you would dis-agree with, even from a purely atheistic world-view).


  Try going to the poorest countries in the world, and you will find the people are the most generous. The vast majority of humans are very generous and good hearted, regardless of religion.
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June 23, 2013, 12:27:22 PM
 #665

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Try going to the poorest countries in the world, and you will find the people are
the most generous. The vast majority of humans are very generous and good hearted,
regardless of religion.

That's not even true. While sometimes hospitable to strange wealthy foreigners, there's little selflessness. Take Uganda. There's a Canadian Christian lady that's baked over 8000 loaves of banana bread to raise money to build an orphanage for the young orphaned children she discovered were living in a dump, suffering untreated aids, scabies, and malaria. People have come from far and wide because they don't understand why, the culture is simply each man for himself.
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June 23, 2013, 04:48:55 PM
 #666

  Please refer to direct first hand experiences to justify your claim of outright falsehood. I am speaking from my direct experi3nce. Are you?
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June 23, 2013, 08:22:38 PM
 #667

Somewhat. Perhaps neither argument deserves a worldwide generality.
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June 23, 2013, 09:05:43 PM
 #668

People are naturally charitable. It's in our DNA, since we are a social species that tends to live in packs. Wolves are charitable to members of their pack as well. So, with non-profits, some people start them because they are charitable, and some people start them because they are charitable, and use Christianity as an excuse for why they feel that way.

Theism:
The belief that the universe was empty, then it wasn't, then splat you have a god who then goes on to create the entire Universe.

Rassah,  I take it you are not a parent of a toddler?  Having children at that age shows you that we are naturally pretty selfish.  One of the first words of most kids this age is "mine!"  I think that there is a sense in which animals will join together to try to help each other out for sure, but the heart of humanity is selfish, I strongly believe.

As for your belief in Theism being that the the universe was empty, then it wasn't and we have a God that creates the entire universe.  That is just the start of it.  Then God, out of his infinite love for us, chose to come into this world as a baby so he could understand us and then give His life for us, as the greatest gift ever.  How can my response not be to thank Him for caring enough about me, and others around me, and because of the change in my heart love others with the same love given to me?  


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Rassah
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June 23, 2013, 10:01:21 PM
Last edit: June 23, 2013, 10:24:20 PM by Rassah
 #669

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The belief that the universe was empty, then it wasn't, then splat you have a god who then goes on to create the entire Universe.
God is the eternal self-existing one, there was never a time when God was not present.

Why can't the universe be the eternal self-existing one, with there never being a time when the universe didn't exist? More importantly, since time is a function of matter, velocity, and space, time could not have existed without the universe. In other words, the father you go back to the point of the Big Bang, the slower the time moves, until it reaches zero, I.e. time did not exist. So, how could god exist before time? Any sort of action of his part would require change over a period of time, but if there was no time...?

Interesting, do you have source for charitable DNA? And what do you see as the primary advantage of charity, doesn't that conflict with Social Darwinianism?

Just biology and sociology. There are many examples of species that are social and tribal in nature, just like us, who take care of others within their pack who might have fallen on hard times. Wolf packs are very well known for this, bringing food and caring for expectant and new mothers, and even those of their pack who get injured. Darwinism isn't survival of the fittest, it's survival of whoever can propagate their species the best, whether that be as individuals (hawks, turtles), or as social packs (ants, bees, wolves, dolphins). Charity, or specifically caring for vulnerable members, provides greater safety and security of a pack, and it's easier to help the injured recover and come help you hunt and defend your territory than to breed a new replacement. Especially since you'll be preserving already established wisdom and knowledge.


Further, Christians are more likely to be charitable, as charitable-ness is a command in Christianity, I reject that people are simply using Christianity as an excuse to be charitable.

Could it be that feely-cary types are simply more attracted to a philosophy that already fits their feely-cary nature? The question is, does Christianity make someone go from an uncaring a-hole to a caring person, or does it selectively attract caring people and rejects uncaring a-holes? If it's the latter, then those who are caring and charitable, but who couldn't be gullible enough to be convinced by Christianity's claims, will still be the same caring and charitable people. They just wouldn't be associated with Christianity. The other issue is that Christianity and other religions demand one to be charitable, so it's much more likely for Christians to constantly loudly proclaim about how charitable they are, to prove that they are good Christians and are following the rules. Secular charities don't have anything to prove to anyone, so they wouldn't be advertising about how charitable they are because of their atheism on city billboards.

Athiests might be charitable, if they want to loose the extra money, or time, but experience speaks that unless you have an over abundance of either you are unlikely to be charitable. Humans are inherently greedy (which I doubt you would dis-agree with, even from a purely atheistic world-view).

Yeah, I disagree with that. Humans generally help each other out. You see that most prominently on smaller scale, around neighborhoods, especially after a severe snowstorm or flood. People come out to help out neighbors dig themselves out our clean up the mess, regardless of what their religion is. Besides, one of the biggest philanthropists in the world, who has given more to charity than anyone else, is an atheist, while one of the richest Christians in the world outside of the Vatican, has given practically nothing to charity. I'm peaking of Bill Gates and Pat Robertson.

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June 23, 2013, 10:17:01 PM
 #670

Rassah,  I take it you are not a parent of a toddler?  Having children at that age shows you that we are naturally pretty selfish.  One of the first words of most kids this age is "mine!"  I think that there is a sense in which animals will join together to try to help each other out for sure, but the heart of humanity is selfish, I strongly believe.

Thankfully, I don't have a toddler, but I'm not surprised. When babies are babies, be they human, or wolf pups, or kittens, or bird chicks, they compete pretty hard for the limited resources of the food and stuffs provided by mama. Often the weaker babies don't survive due to bullying by stronger ones. Sad as that is, it does keep those who may have physical or psychological birth defects from propagating the species in the animal kingdom. Once they grow up, those babies start to recognize the value of individual members of their pack, and learn some of it's customs. In the same way that human babies go from "Mine!" to understanding that we have to work together to survive, whether that baby grows up in downtown London, a small village in Africa, or a native tribe in Australia. We are not social because it was something taught to us by our society or religious texts. There's a good reason social acceptance is one of the items on Maslow's list of fundamental needs.


As for your belief in Theism being that the the universe was empty, then it wasn't and we have a God that creates the entire universe.  That is just the start of it.

As mentioned, physics sort of broke that idea when it showed that time needs matter, aka universe, to exist. How can a god be "before" there was a thing like time?

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June 23, 2013, 10:20:57 PM
 #671

      If you believe in a transcendent truth you are more likely to do good works. In Buddhism it may be to attain a place in the pure lands, or to try to do enough to skip the pure lands and go straight to nirvana.

    The more you believe in an afterlife whose quality is determined by actions in this life, the more likely you are to do whatever it is that will improve that afterlife.

To the point where some give up everything in this life to attain happiness in the next. The beauty of it is that by making sacrifices in this life to improve the next, this life also improves in quality by freeing us habits that trap us in cycles of desire. Gratifying these desires makes us happy for a while but leaves us less satisfied in the long run.


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June 23, 2013, 10:37:45 PM
 #672

    Trying to imagine reality outside time is a good example of how human logic cannot comprehend ultimate reality. You have to step outside of intelligence to witness that truth.

The mine mine mine attitude which some toddlers have is something that I don't believe is universal. kids imitate the behavior that they see you around them. I have a two year old and I've lived with him in Germany and Colombia and I can say that definitely there was a lot more of this possessive attitude in Germany where people have more things and possessions are generally more important than they are in Colombia where people have less.

Seek and you will find. Who wrote the Bible? When was it written? Who compiled different versions of the Bible? Who has translated the Bible? Which books of the Bible were written in Aramaic and which in Greek? Which were translated from Hebrew? Who is the person who wrote more of the New Testament than any other? Were there intelligence agencies and espionage in the Roman empire? How many of the books have clearly established authorship? What is meant by the first shall be last and the last shall be first? How many interpretations are possible in each parable? What is the stone that that the builder refused? What is the fig tree who withers and dries up suddenly, never to bear fruit again? Is there an equivalent of a Pharoah today?

   Time: the new moon and full moon are synchronized worldwide. The clock is centered on GMT in England as the start of time. December means literally  "the tenth month."

     If you're going to read the Bible you have to be as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove.
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June 23, 2013, 11:05:48 PM
 #673

    Trying to imagine reality outside time is a good example of how human logic cannot comprehend ultimate reality. You have to step outside of intelligence to witness that truth.

It's easier to claim that "it's not possible for humans to understand, period, so don't even try or question." I mean, if you wave your hand, you are moving matter, from one location, to another, over a period of time. Take time out of the equation, and there is no motion, no action, no nothing. For someone to do anything, the doing suggests that something is being done over a period of time. Maybe you can explain how something can be done without time? Even if it's not a logical explanation?

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June 23, 2013, 11:15:37 PM
 #674

    Trying to imagine reality outside time is a good example of how human logic cannot comprehend ultimate reality. You have to step outside of intelligence to witness that truth.

It's easier to claim that "it's not possible for humans to understand, period, so don't even try or question." I mean, if you wave your hand, you are moving matter, from one location, to another, over a period of time. Take time out of the equation, and there is no motion, no action, no nothing. For someone to do anything, the doing suggests that something is being done over a period of time. Maybe you can explain how something can be done without time? Even if it's not a logical explanation?

Try imagining everything that is, ever was, or will be as one giant unending chain of atoms. Imagine your birth, childhood, adolescence, and eventual death as one unbroken chain of matter that connects with everything before and after it. Every molecule of water, land, and life in one unbroken chain circulating our solar system as one giant linked whole with no growth or movement. Now scale this up to a galactic or universal level. Now you have a sliver of an image of what timelessness is. If you want to learn more check out some books on time as the 4th dimension.

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June 23, 2013, 11:26:07 PM
 #675


As for your belief in Theism being that the the universe was empty, then it wasn't and we have a God that creates the entire universe.  That is just the start of it.

As mentioned, physics sort of broke that idea when it showed that time needs matter, aka universe, to exist. How can a god be "before" there was a thing like time?

Getting really philosophical here, but how did time evolve?  I am of the mindset (as I am sure you already know from past discussions on this thread) that God created time when he put the sun, moon and planets in their perfect places relative to each other at the moment the universe was created by Him.  What is the explanation of how that just happened by chance?  What are the odds that everything could have happened so that the rotation of the earth, at the precise distance from the sun, could have just happened by some random evolutionary chance?  

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June 24, 2013, 01:34:45 AM
 #676

It's impossible to get into discussions of time without dredging up determinism (like the universe is a series of unaided chain reactions).

Athiests are bothered satisfied that they can't see God within those chain reactions.

In order for God to be as revealed in the Bible, time must be such that it is only one of the dimensions involved in "solving" the requirements that he places on reality (Isa 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.)

How could Jesus be present with Moses and Elijah in one distortion of time? Only if the deterministic solution to that conundrum were to define the thousands of years between them. It's that solution which is referred to when it's said something was prepared "from the beginning," as it was done knowing the end also. If we have free will at all, it's in the finer details of our own choices; Our rebellion can do nothing to disrupt his end, but he can work with us or in spite of us. One is better.
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June 24, 2013, 01:39:35 AM
 #677


It's impossible to get into discussions of time without dredging up determinism (like the universe is a series of unaided chain reactions).

Athiests are bothered that they can't see God within those chain reactions.

In order for God to be as revealed in the Bible, time must be such that it is only one of the dimensions involved in "solving" the requirements that he places on reality (Isa 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.)

How could Jesus be present with Moses and Elijah in one distortion of time? Only if the deterministic solution to that conundrum were to define the thousands of years between them. It's that solution which is referred to when it's said something was prepared "from the beginning," as it was done knowing the end also. If we have free will at all, it's in the finer details of our own choices; Our rebellion can do nothing to disrupt his end, but he can work with us or in spite of us. One is better.



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June 24, 2013, 01:42:12 AM
Last edit: June 24, 2013, 02:08:28 AM by neurobox
 #678

LOL. Wrong word obviously. Note edit. And come on, you know that just blew somebody's mind.

Your face ain't even bovvered. Nothing bovvers you. That's not a sustainable condition. God loves you too much. He'll be there when you need him Smiley
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June 24, 2013, 02:48:04 AM
 #679

LOL. Wrong word obviously. Note edit. And come on, you know that just blew somebody's mind.

Your face ain't even bovvered. Nothing bovvers you. That's not a sustainable condition. God loves you too much. He'll be there when you need him Smiley

I was in a children's cancer ward the other day.

Couldn't find "God" anywhere around.

The shaman in the priest outfit told me that God's Love was present though.

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June 24, 2013, 02:53:04 AM
 #680

LOL. Wrong word obviously. Note edit. And come on, you know that just blew somebody's mind.

Your face ain't even bovvered. Nothing bovvers you. That's not a sustainable condition. God loves you too much. He'll be there when you need him Smiley

I was in a children's cancer ward the other day.

Couldn't find "God" anywhere around.

The shaman in the priest outfit told me that God's Love was present though.

We live in a world that has been tainted by sin.  Sickness, death, suffering are not from the hands of God but are curses because of our fallen world so God is not to be blamed for those things, although He often is.  But God is here when we call out to Him and will carry us through our sufferings if we ask Him too. The problem is, we get so angry or deliberately want to believe that He is not there or does not care so we choose to ignore Him.  But He is simply a prayer away. 

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