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Author Topic: Religious beliefs on bitcoin  (Read 22247 times)
KeyserSoze
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May 29, 2013, 03:21:42 AM
 #281

At any rate, the world is absolutely primed for the fulfilment of end times prophecy, Bitcoin playing an uncredited role.

2000 years of End Times. Seems more like Never-End Times.

We already covered this. John was speaking about his own lifetime. Jesus failed to return. Game over. Only modern fundamentalist chrisitians and some assorted other kooks, who have trouble with reading comprehension, have stretched the fabled "second coming" over millennia to be, "Any day now, so stock up your canned goods and gold. We'll show those hell-bound atheists!"

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May 29, 2013, 03:23:32 AM
 #282

Considering all athiests are amoral, I am surprised at the many times they call God immoral.

Why do you think atheists are immoral? Since they call god immoral, it would suggest that they do understand what is moral and what is immoral, even to the point that they believe some of the actions that are attributed to god or some of his commandments are immoral. Atheists are more moral than god.

This is an honest question I have had.  Where do atheists get their moral compass from?  Is it based on society around them?  Do the laws of the land dictate what is moral?  Can they change their minds if they feel like it?  Society used to call many things immoral that are now called moral so is it based on the what others say is right or wrong?  Or do they have a "conscience" that tells them what is right and wrong?  If so, where does that conscience come from?  

Ethics is the analysis of actions. implications and concequences. Morals are cultural dogma, set in stone. Anone whose morals are unethical is someone I don't trust. If your ethics are amoral, you have a shot at doing good, if they're immoral, you're probably overthinking stuff.

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May 29, 2013, 03:23:43 AM
 #283

Considering all athiests are amoral, I am surprised at the many times they call God immoral.

Why do you think atheists are immoral? Since they call god immoral, it would suggest that they do understand what is moral and what is immoral, even to the point that they believe some of the actions that are attributed to god or some of his commandments are immoral. Atheists are more moral than god.

This is an honest question I have had.  Where do atheists get their moral compass from?  Is it based on society around them?  Do the laws of the land dictate what is moral?  Can they change their minds if they feel like it?  Society used to call many things immoral that are now called moral so is it based on the what others say is right or wrong?  Or do they have a "conscience" that tells them what is right and wrong?  If so, where does that conscience come from?  

Serious question - Do you mean to say that you have no idea what is right and what is wrong without God to tell you?

If you picked up a puppy you found on the side of the road that had a broken leg would you:

1) Take it to the closest animal hospital/shelter for treatment and adoption.

2) Throw it as far into the woods as you can so it doesn't stink up the road.

3) Stand there praying for a sign for what to do because you have no moral compass without God.


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May 29, 2013, 03:43:03 AM
Last edit: May 29, 2013, 03:59:28 AM by ktttn
 #284

Jesus was totally That Guy. Thank God. I want to be That Guy.

Fancy avatar there, ktttn. Roughly translated I get: Taoist, balancing darkness with enlightenment. That's why you see the akashic records as being on neutral ground. I affirm to you, they are not what they seem.

So far so good?

Anyways, whether one believes in biblical prophecies or not, realize that there are a massive number of mystical/channelling groups and cults that people are getting into, usually involving ghosts, angels, gods, aliens, drugs, etc, and amazingly they all present essentially the same exact doomsday message, and it's exactly what the Bible suggests the antichrist would sell the world. "Unite for world peace and purge the absolutists, or { we won't give you free energy | you're going to kill each other | the planetary vibration will stay at a lower density [sic] }." Cite: Ashtar Command, Thrive Movement, Galactic Federation of Light, Zeitgeist, Raelians, Scientology, a thousand others, etc... and AFAIK anyone dabbling in mysticism (though initially considering it an objective pursuit) will find they can hardly object to their statements.

Sadly that message is spreading rapidly through a society that doesn't know any better. Whether you believe it is of spiritual or lunatic origin, the antichrist message works against the libertarian principle far more than the Christian message does.

At any rate, the world is absolutely primed for the fulfilment of end times prophecy, Bitcoin playing an uncredited role. Should the mark system come into effect, it would have to be quite generous but potentially exclusive, as it was with the Romans.

I'm also curious how one might explain how over 2000 years ago anyone could have supposed that the whole progressive world would be primed and ready to unite behind some irreverently charismatic leader who could actually bring world peace?

Can you imagine right now how popular someone like that would become, especially if he had the worship-inducing favor of the global media, hollywood, politicians, even muslims? There would literally be no limit to the damage he could do. Or so he may believe.


Don't be that guy.
I never met Jesus, but if you did, or are otherwise convinced that Jesus is more than a myth, all I can do is hope nobody shoots or imprisons me because I decided to trust different sources. *fingers crossed*
My avatar is the sacred chao. I'm 1/4 Discordian on my granddaddy's side. Look it up
No, seriously, research it. Form well researched opinions about it. Lets talk about the hodge, and the podge.
LaVeyan Satanism was concocted more to combat New Age herpderps than Jesus-Freaks. Both of these ideologies rely on selfmade gurus with good guy badges hypnotizing consumers into a blin fit of moral bankruptcy.
Edit: The Akashic record, like god, is an anecdotal construct designed not to personify (as with god), but to solidify the principle of all combined information's indestructability. As an idea, it doeant even need to fook with ground, neutral or otherwise.
Also, the list of subcultures you have is biased, which is fine.

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KeyserSoze
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May 29, 2013, 04:45:51 AM
 #285

Quote
"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely." - Sam Harris
Or perhaps it fits in a plan that you do not see.

So you've chosen #2, that your god is evil. And yet you still follow him. Nice.


The ten commandments are the foundation of biblical law and morals, God is not bound by his laws. However, God is also a good God, thus all the laws he created are generally followed by him.

Well now you're just descending into fundamentalist pamphlet talk. If his laws are what make morality and he doesn't follow them, then he is immoral. You're just gonna state "god is good" while all evidence points to the contrary? This is just about checkmate it seems.



e.g. Thou shalt not murder, athiests will contend that God has "murdered" people, however there is a separation between rightfully sentencing people to death, and a person deciding they want to kill somone.

I'm confused. You're describing relative morality, where sometimes murder is OK. I'm looking for your examples of absolute morality.


Considering all athiests are amoral, I am surprised at the many times they call God immoral. It's quite obvious God would be above the law, God did not create the law for himself, but rather for the human race.

The whole use of the word moral is a religious shell game. People use it as a weapon; those with morals know what is right and those without do not. Of course that is complete horseshit.

Your god, if he did exist, would be the most capriciously violent and vengeful being in the universe yet somehow he's great to worship because "might makes right" for you, whether the lich you worship is actually "evil" or not. It doesn't matter if he's a vile bastard to you, and that is twisted. Along your line of reasoning, if inside your mythology Satan had cast God out of Heaven you'd follow Satan just as gladly, as long as people sang songs calling Satan's torture of others "love".

Meanwhile you deem atheists amoral because you believe they don't follow any of the "moral laws" in your book of rules. Again, horseshit. We don't need a book to tell us not to kill people, not to steal from others, etc.


Quote
I criticize him based on my rational, evolved, relative morals.
Go on then, Hitler thought he was saving the human race by removing the scourge of Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
I was trying to avoid Godwin's law however you've opened the can of worms, not me. Your argument concerning the "danger" of relative moralism with regard to Hitler falls flat. The point of relative morals is NOT "whatever each individual finds right is A-OK", it is that while we each individually need to determine right from wrong in our own loves (personal morals), these will continually be evaluated and adjusted against family (clan) morals, social, government and worldwide morals. And all of these morals continue to evolve worldwide as the various groups employ empathy to hopefully understand one another, groups and cultures.

What we don't need is religion imposing arbitrary and piss-poor "morals" on that system of growth. I mean, your god had the chance to really make the world a wonderful place and his first commandment is the jealous, "don't worship anybody but me, or else!"  Wow... swing and a miss.

Thankfully he followed it up with the ultra-important "no graven images" commandment. Ouch. Strike two.

And the humiliating strike out comes with the third waste of commandment, "don't you dare call me names." By the time he gets to anything of importance we're already not listening to this turkey. As I said earlier, any 10th grader could come up with a better list of commandments, and her list could hardly be less loving and righteous no matter what was on it.


If you make one copy of anything, I suspect it would not last very long at all.

The Code of Hammurabi, which came well before the bible, was carved into stone to preserve it longer. You'd think a god would know that, eh? I love that people claim prophecy and omnipotence for this god and the dude can't even stop his "revelation" for a second to say, "oh yeah, before I forget, papyrus might not be a good idea to record this. Try stone."


Quote
Commanding death of gays among many other arbitrary groups:
Such is the moral law, but it certainly not to be executed by random people.

There's just no way around it -- anyone who thinks 2 consenting adults pile driving the Hershey highway requires death is quite simply a big juicy turd of a human. It's a completely irrational belief, has zero to do with right or wrong, and is miles away from anything worthy of such a punishment. But what more can we expect from the most immoral book on the planet?


Quote
Stoning naughty kids (Deuteronomy 21:18):
The bible does not condone stoning "naughty kids".

18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

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KeyserSoze
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May 29, 2013, 04:49:41 AM
 #286

Considering all athiests are amoral, I am surprised at the many times they call God immoral.

Why do you think atheists are immoral? Since they call god immoral, it would suggest that they do understand what is moral and what is immoral, even to the point that they believe some of the actions that are attributed to god or some of his commandments are immoral. Atheists are more moral than god.

This is an honest question I have had.  Where do atheists get their moral compass from?  Is it based on society around them?  Do the laws of the land dictate what is moral?  Can they change their minds if they feel like it?  Society used to call many things immoral that are now called moral so is it based on the what others say is right or wrong?  Or do they have a "conscience" that tells them what is right and wrong?  If so, where does that conscience come from?  

Answered earlier in the thread. The short of it is: evolved social empathy.

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May 29, 2013, 05:22:17 AM
 #287

This has taken a weird twist.
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May 29, 2013, 06:40:46 AM
 #288

No.

Saying that you don't trust someone because of their behavior is completely valid.
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May 29, 2013, 08:34:31 AM
 #289

Considering all athiests are amoral, I am surprised at the many times they call God immoral.

Why do you think atheists are immoral? Since they call god immoral, it would suggest that they do understand what is moral and what is immoral, even to the point that they believe some of the actions that are attributed to god or some of his commandments are immoral. Atheists are more moral than god.

This is an honest question I have had.  Where do atheists get their moral compass from?  Is it based on society around them?  Do the laws of the land dictate what is moral?  Can they change their minds if they feel like it?  Society used to call many things immoral that are now called moral so is it based on the what others say is right or wrong?  Or do they have a "conscience" that tells them what is right and wrong?  If so, where does that conscience come from?  

The assumption you can only have morals if you are religions is really harsh.

Doesn't this basically translate people (also you!) only act moral because they fear punishment.

So if your god would not threaten you with punishment you would go around murdering, raping, etc.? Certainly not.

Should for the sake of your own argument the assumption not be:

To be a (good) religious person you need strong morals, rather than to have morals you need to be religious?

So where do morals come from? It's called empathy, the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another being.

And this ability is just hardwired into our brains. Without it our species would not have been able to surfieve in times long before religion. Our empathy / protective instincts even is oversensitive and basically triggered by everything that resembles a human face even the slighted, especially with characteristics of infants (Big eyes compared to the rest of the face), that's why many people like cats and dogs. You see this effect used often to manipulate our feelings, the movie Avatar is a good example.

But well, it basically comes down to this:

A human being is able to imagine the consequences of it's actions for another being, morals are the decision that no being should experience consequences that I deem unpleasant, compared to the actual value of this experience (work for example is unpleasant for many, yet necessary). Also the difference is the case, making someone else a gift, makes us feel good. That's hardwired the same way. I feel good when others feel good because of my actions.

And of course this standards are different for every human, defined by what unpleasant things they deem necessary, I for one am a vegetarian for that reason, which most people evaluate as over extreme.

In the end it comes down to this:

Morals are not obeying a law, whether it is from a government or a religion. Someone that sticks to certain morals just because any other being tells him so is not moral at all, because they just admit they they wouldn't act this way if they where not "being watched"

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May 29, 2013, 09:49:55 AM
 #290

No.
Here's an idea. All theists on the internet are unintentional trolls. The magical thing about internet theists is that the universal response to their trollings is an enormous display of fireworks, lasers, blimps, zeppelins, meticulously crafted wonders to treat the eye, carefully rehearsed and choreographed scientific dances erupting unanimously, peer-reviewed. from all sides, earthshakingly, undeniably flawlessly articulated monologues, specifically quoting and assessing with the greatest care, every arguement or point or implication any theisy might allude to.
To which the common theist invariably responds, unblinking, unshaked, dissuaded not in the least, john, 3:16...muh faiths.

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May 29, 2013, 09:55:34 AM
 #291

I want some pepperoni on my Eucharist, please.
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May 29, 2013, 01:01:36 PM
 #292

Religion as well as science are based in reason. The truth stands out clearly from falsehood.
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May 29, 2013, 01:35:47 PM
 #293

I introduced bitcoin to a friend and they started talking about how the bible predicts a currency take over and its the start of the Revelation.

Has anyone else run into this problem?

As soon as the rapture is ushered in by the arrival of Santa Claus departing from the tail of Haley's Comet we're all screwed.

Bitcoin will waken the Kraken and Fenrir will devour the world.
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May 29, 2013, 02:00:15 PM
 #294

Religion as well as science are based in reason. The truth stands out clearly from falsehood.

The Force from Star Wars, as well as algebra, are based in reason too.

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May 29, 2013, 02:50:27 PM
 #295

Considering all athiests are amoral, I am surprised at the many times they call God immoral.

Why do you think atheists are immoral? Since they call god immoral, it would suggest that they do understand what is moral and what is immoral, even to the point that they believe some of the actions that are attributed to god or some of his commandments are immoral. Atheists are more moral than god.

This is an honest question I have had.  Where do atheists get their moral compass from?  Is it based on society around them?  Do the laws of the land dictate what is moral?  Can they change their minds if they feel like it?  Society used to call many things immoral that are now called moral so is it based on the what others say is right or wrong?  Or do they have a "conscience" that tells them what is right and wrong?  If so, where does that conscience come from?  

Serious question - Do you mean to say that you have no idea what is right and what is wrong without God to tell you?

If you picked up a puppy you found on the side of the road that had a broken leg would you:

1) Take it to the closest animal hospital/shelter for treatment and adoption.

2) Throw it as far into the woods as you can so it doesn't stink up the road.

3) Stand there praying for a sign for what to do because you have no moral compass without God.



Do I have no idea what right or wrong is without God? 

Personally, I do think that God or more precisely, the Holy Spirit (or our "conscience" as some people call Him) does speak to us and tell us what "right and wrong" is.  Where does our sense of compassion come from?  Most would say from parents or society or it has "evolved" but I believe God puts that in our hearts and speaks to us.  Also, I use the Bible as my moral compass as well when my own selfish desires get in the way of what really is the right thing to do.   The Bible says "There is a way that seems right to a man but it leads to death."   That is why I need to read the Bible and make sure I am not just making up my own ideas of what right an wrong are.   The more I listen to Him, the more compassionate I can become.  The more loving I can be.  The more I can care about others, regardless of their beliefs, be it atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.  I don't have to agree with people that think differently than I do, but I  need to love them and try to show them that God loves them too.  The difficulty is that in "loving" them, I often feel a compelling sense of showing them that they are on a destructive path.

Let's imagine this.  Hundreds of people are on the top of plateau with a huge cliff all around.  They are all blindfolded.  However, you are not.  The people are walking towards the edge of the cliff.  Do you just let them walk off to their death or would you try to stop them from going over the edge?  Probably the best thing to do would be to try and convince them that they are wearing a blindfold!  But in a strange way many don't even realize they have one on at all and they do not listen, or even argue with you.  You care deeply about them so you get more and more intense.  Maybe one or two take off their blindfold and then see that they almost plunged to their death without even realizing it.

This is how it feels as a Christian.  We believe God has miraculously helped us "see" (we once were blind but now we see).  Out of compassion for those that cannot see we try desperately to get others to see the truth (sometimes people who say they are Christians do not do this in a loving or compassionate way I admit!  This angers me more than anything too BTW! Also, Jesus got more angry at people like this too than any others) So it is a problem for sure.  How to love without offending.  How to care without coming across as pushy, arrogant?  Should we just let others choose their own path without doing anything at all?  It seems that is what most people want us to do.  "Live and let live."  But is that the "moral" thing?  Is that the right thing? 

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May 29, 2013, 03:26:53 PM
 #296

Religion as well as science are based in reason. The truth stands out clearly from falsehood.

The Force from Star Wars, as well as algebra, are based in reason too.

   And there are people who order their lives according to principles of the Force and Algebra as well.
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May 29, 2013, 03:32:48 PM
 #297

No.
... The magical thing about internet theists is that the universal response to their trollings is an enormous display of fireworks, lasers, blimps, zeppelins, meticulously crafted wonders to treat the eye, carefully rehearsed and choreographed scientific dances erupting unanimously, peer-reviewed. from all sides, earthshakingly, undeniably flawlessly articulated monologues, specifically quoting and assessing with the greatest care, every arguement or point or implication any theisy might allude to. ...

It's so hard to nail down if that's meth, poesy, manic psychosis or just real shit writing.  
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May 29, 2013, 03:52:28 PM
 #298

Considering all athiests are amoral, I am surprised at the many times they call God immoral.

Why do you think atheists are immoral? Since they call god immoral, it would suggest that they do understand what is moral and what is immoral, even to the point that they believe some of the actions that are attributed to god or some of his commandments are immoral. Atheists are more moral than god.

This is an honest question I have had.  Where do atheists get their moral compass from?  Is it based on society around them?  Do the laws of the land dictate what is moral?  Can they change their minds if they feel like it?  Society used to call many things immoral that are now called moral so is it based on the what others say is right or wrong?  Or do they have a "conscience" that tells them what is right and wrong?  If so, where does that conscience come from?  

Serious question - Do you mean to say that you have no idea what is right and what is wrong without God to tell you?

If you picked up a puppy you found on the side of the road that had a broken leg would you:

1) Take it to the closest animal hospital/shelter for treatment and adoption.

2) Throw it as far into the woods as you can so it doesn't stink up the road.

3) Stand there praying for a sign for what to do because you have no moral compass without God.



Do I have no idea what right or wrong is without God? 

Personally, I do think that God or more precisely, the Holy Spirit (or our "conscience" as some people call Him) does speak to us and tell us what "right and wrong" is.  Where does our sense of compassion come from?  Most would say from parents or society or it has "evolved" but I believe God puts that in our hearts and speaks to us.  Also, I use the Bible as my moral compass as well when my own selfish desires get in the way of what really is the right thing to do.   The Bible says "There is a way that seems right to a man but it leads to death."   That is why I need to read the Bible and make sure I am not just making up my own ideas of what right an wrong are.   The more I listen to Him, the more compassionate I can become.  The more loving I can be.  The more I can care about others, regardless of their beliefs, be it atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.  I don't have to agree with people that think differently than I do, but I  need to love them and try to show them that God loves them too.  The difficulty is that in "loving" them, I often feel a compelling sense of showing them that they are on a destructive path.

Let's imagine this.  Hundreds of people are on the top of plateau with a huge cliff all around.  They are all blindfolded.  However, you are not.  The people are walking towards the edge of the cliff.  Do you just let them walk off to their death or would you try to stop them from going over the edge?  Probably the best thing to do would be to try and convince them that they are wearing a blindfold!  But in a strange way many don't even realize they have one on at all and they do not listen, or even argue with you.  You care deeply about them so you get more and more intense.  Maybe one or two take off their blindfold and then see that they almost plunged to their death without even realizing it.

This is how it feels as a Christian.  We believe God has miraculously helped us "see" (we once were blind but now we see).  Out of compassion for those that cannot see we try desperately to get others to see the truth (sometimes people who say they are Christians do not do this in a loving or compassionate way I admit!  This angers me more than anything too BTW! Also, Jesus got more angry at people like this too than any others) So it is a problem for sure.  How to love without offending.  How to care without coming across as pushy, arrogant?  Should we just let others choose their own path without doing anything at all?  It seems that is what most people want us to do.  "Live and let live."  But is that the "moral" thing?  Is that the right thing? 

I can see your argument and can agree that some people need assistance in doing the right thing. All religions not just Christianity have served this purpose well. "If God didn't exhist it would be necessary to invent him."

Christians have gone to war against differing religions for centuries to convert them or wipe them out. Historically Christianity is the least tolerant religion and the most oppressive. I really believe the United States is oppressive and militaristic because the influence of Christianity is so strong. I don't see the morality influence of Christianity as being helpful enough to outweigh the negative.

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Getting too old for all this.


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May 29, 2013, 04:42:19 PM
 #299


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I can see your argument and can agree that some people need assistance in doing the right thing. All religions not just Christianity have served this purpose well. "If God didn't exhist it would be necessary to invent him."

Christians have gone to war against differing religions for centuries to convert them or wipe them out. Historically Christianity is the least tolerant religion and the most oppressive. I really believe the United States is oppressive and militaristic because the influence of Christianity is so strong. I don't see the morality influence of Christianity as being helpful enough to outweigh the negative.

Early militancy was symptomatic of Roman Catholic control of the church (and it's offshoots), wherein the bible was not taught to its subjects, only religiously recited in Latin, which few knew. Meanwhile even protestants had to fight for their lives. Do you know what they did to Tyndale?

This was all pretty far askew from the ideals espoused by Jesus, in fact more the behavior of religious Pharisees, whom Christ sternly rebuked.

Catholicism is now much more broad and well informed, responsible for a lot of good work, and IMHO are becoming less attached to the more heretical teachings, but still quite far from some of Jesus' own admonitions.

Now, if you're referring to Bush putting the US in Iraq, I don't know any Christians that honestly thought that was a good idea. It really didn't follow with 9/11, it seemed to follow Bush Sr. At any rate, they say that the chemical WMDs that had been there ended up in Syria (which fits), so it might not have been completely baseless.

Much of American "oppressive militancy" is on it's face the attempt (perhaps wrongly) to secure peace and democracy amongst cultures which do not value peace, democracy, or even respect for life. Whatever ulterior motives you assign (and there probably are a few), that is the position and objective which the majority of soldiers adhere to, and many peaceful locals do recognize that their intentions are good, their actions generally necessary to prevent takeover by absolutely ruthless and fanatical factions. A full and proper hand-off of power, however, could take generations. We definitely bit off more than we can chew there, but it seems to me that it was at least as much because of secular world peace idealism as anything else.
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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.


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May 29, 2013, 05:05:46 PM
 #300


...

I can see your argument and can agree that some people need assistance in doing the right thing. All religions not just Christianity have served this purpose well. "If God didn't exhist it would be necessary to invent him."

Christians have gone to war against differing religions for centuries to convert them or wipe them out. Historically Christianity is the least tolerant religion and the most oppressive. I really believe the United States is oppressive and militaristic because the influence of Christianity is so strong. I don't see the morality influence of Christianity as being helpful enough to outweigh the negative.

Early militancy was symptomatic of Roman Catholic control of the church (and it's offshoots), wherein the bible was not taught to its subjects, only religiously recited in Latin, which few knew. Meanwhile even protestants had to fight for their lives. Do you know what they did to Tyndale?

This was all pretty far askew from the ideals espoused by Jesus, in fact more the behavior of religious Pharisees, whom Christ sternly rebuked.

Catholicism is now much more broad and well informed, responsible for a lot of good work, and IMHO are becoming less attached to the more heretical teachings, but still quite far from some of Jesus' own admonitions.

Now, if you're referring to Bush putting the US in Iraq, I don't know any Christians that honestly thought that was a good idea. It really didn't follow with 9/11, it seemed to follow Bush Sr. At any rate, they say that the chemical WMDs that had been there ended up in Syria (which fits), so it might not have been completely baseless.

Much of American "oppressive militancy" is on it's face the attempt (perhaps wrongly) to secure peace and democracy amongst cultures which do not value peace, democracy, or even respect for life. Whatever ulterior motives you assign (and there probably are a few), that is the position and objective which the majority of soldiers adhere to, and many peaceful locals do recognize that their intentions are good, their actions generally necessary to prevent takeover by absolutely ruthless and fanatical factions. A full and proper hand-off of power, however, could take generations. We definitely bit off more than we can chew there, but it seems to me that it was at least as much because of secular world peace idealism as anything else.


I hear you and yes it has become a secular ideal. The nanny state that believes it has a mandate to create world peace can not be considered specifically religious but hidden inside every presidential speech is the message of God and country. When ever I hear a president call for a moment of silent prayer or invoke Lincoln I cringe because I realize we are about to go kill lots of people.

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