[OLD] Eligius: ASIC, no registration, no fee CPPSRB BTC + 105% PPS NMC, 877 #

[bitlane]

Where on the pool site does it support what you just said?

Are you an idiot ?
....as an example: WOULD YOU DONATE SUPPORT, TIME OR MONEY TO A CHILDREN'S CHARITY IF THE MONEY/PROCEEDS WERE BEING SENT TO WAGE WAR IN IRAQ INSTEAD OF HELPING CHILDREN ?

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[markm]

In addition to helping children. Merged, remember.

-MarkM-

[imsaguy]

Where on the pool site does it support what you just said?

Are you an idiot ?
....as an example: WOULD YOU DONATE SUPPORT, TIME OR MONEY TO A CHILDREN'S CHARITY IF THE MONEY/PROCEEDS WERE BEING SENT TO WAGE WAR IN IRAQ INSTEAD OF HELPING CHILDREN ?

When I donate to a charity, I make sure they guarantee/describe what the money will be used for. If I later find out they broke that guarantee, I could take action, either demanding a refund, suing in court, etc.

[bitlane]

Where on the pool site does it support what you just said?

Are you an idiot ?
....as an example: WOULD YOU DONATE SUPPORT, TIME OR MONEY TO A CHILDREN'S CHARITY IF THE MONEY/PROCEEDS WERE BEING SENT TO WAGE WAR IN IRAQ INSTEAD OF HELPING CHILDREN ?

When I donate to a charity, I make sure they guarantee/describe what the money will be used for. If I later find out they broke that guarantee, I could take action, either demanding a refund, suing in court, etc.

WELL THEN, it looks like Luke's miners have a grievance to file, in regards to THEIR hashing power being used in a malicious fashion, for Cyber Vandalism MERGED with Bitcoin and Namecoin mining, RIGHT?

Their hashing power is directed to the pool and managed as a TRUST.....to be used as described, for what the miners officially 'signed up for'...

I honestly can't wait for a smart pool op to further merge password cracking for his own means, using his pool's hashing power without their knowledge. Now THAT will stir up a huge shit storm.

What YOU are basically saying is that, it's nobody's business what the hashing power is used for, as long as it is partially used for BTC......
The Pool Op can do whatever he/she chooses to do with it....WITHOUT the miner's consent.

[finway]

I don't know, bitlane, why don't ask Google to invest, support your chain?

If it's so good, i guess luke can't beat Google, and you'll win!

In coinworld, hashing power is the real power, and needs(money) define hashing power.

Spitting here is nonsense.  

[imsaguy]

Where on the pool site does it support what you just said?

Are you an idiot ?
....as an example: WOULD YOU DONATE SUPPORT, TIME OR MONEY TO A CHILDREN'S CHARITY IF THE MONEY/PROCEEDS WERE BEING SENT TO WAGE WAR IN IRAQ INSTEAD OF HELPING CHILDREN ?

When I donate to a charity, I make sure they guarantee/describe what the money will be used for. If I later find out they broke that guarantee, I could take action, either demanding a refund, suing in court, etc.

WELL THEN, it looks like Luke's miners have a grievance to file, in regards to THEIR hashing power being used in a malicious fashion, for Cyber Vandalism MERGED with Bitcoin and Namecoin mining, RIGHT?

Their hashing power is directed to the pool and managed as a TRUST.

I honestly can't wait for a smart pool op to further merge password cracking for his own means, using his pool's hashing power without their knowledge. Now THAT will stir up a huge shit storm.

When you sign up for Eligius, the terms state you will be paid X BTC per share and Y NMC per valid share you submit.  NO WHERE does it say that the shares will be used for the exclusive purpose of advancing the bitcoin and/or namecoin blockchains.

[imsaguy]

What YOU are basically saying is that, it's nobody's business what the hashing power is used for, as long as it is partially used for BTC......
The Pool Op can do whatever he/she chooses to do with it....WITHOUT the miner's consent.

You almost got it..

What I'm saying is that for all PPS pools, you are being paid for shares.  Those shares can be used however the pool wants.  Hell, some pools pay you for stale shares just because they want to.  You do work (make shares) and get paid for it.  How the work is then used is up to whomever bought it in the first place.  If you don't like those terms, find somewhere that has more agreeable terms to you.

[OneMINER]

It seems to me that joining a mining pool is kinda like having a verbal contract with the operator. It's clearly stated that it's a mining pool and nowhere is it identified as an "attack pool". Has he broken laws? No. Has he abused the trust of the people mining in that pool? Yes.

What implications does this have for the community as a whole?

Basically if it's ok to do this then it's ok for a pool operator to do anything with the hashes. It could be construed to support any type of attack. So for an example, lets say there's a pool operator who starts a DDoS attack on the largest pools while simultaneously starting a 51% attack. Is this person within his/her rights? Is that ok? I think my example is similar to what Luke did.

I think he broke what is essentially a verbal contract and has displayed some of the worst behavior possible from a pool operator.

It's important that we differentiate between what is acceptable and what is not. Starting a war between pools and coins is counter productive. The larger hash power always wins? If that's the case it would make adopting a better (imaginary) coin impossible. There is no higher authority in this case. So the burden rests with the individuals. Do the right thing.

[bitlane]

When you sign up for Eligius, the terms state you will be paid X BTC per share and Y NMC per valid share you submit.  NO WHERE does it say that the shares will be used for the exclusive purpose of advancing the bitcoin and/or namecoin blockchains.

I hope you unknowingly sign up at a pool that uses YOUR hashing power to crack Government site passwords as well as re-encode Child Pornography videos for web publishing.... and your IP is logged as being part of the 'hashing power'.........but hey, as long as you get paid in BTC and NMC for each share, who cares what else is done with your hashing power, right ?

[OneMINER]

I propose forming a clearly named "attack pool". Why not simply do things above board? I'm sure such a thing will be popular with the kiddies and cause everybody lots of problems.

[rjk]

There is no higher authority in this case.

Luke would disagree, of course.

[imsaguy]

It seems to me that joining a mining pool is kinda like having a verbal contract with the operator. It's clearly stated that it's a mining pool and nowhere is it identified as an "attack pool". Has he broken laws? No. Has he abused the trust of the people mining in that pool? Yes.

What implications does this have for the community as a whole?

Basically if it's ok to do this then it's ok for a pool operator to do anything with the hashes. It could be construed to support any type of attack. So for an example, lets say there's a pool operator who starts a DDoS attack on the largest pools while simultaneously starting a 51% attack. Is this person within his/her rights? Is that ok? I think my example is similar to what Luke did.

I think he broke what is essentially a verbal contract and has displayed some of the worst behavior possible from a pool operator.

It's important that we differentiate between what is acceptable and what is not. Starting a war between pools and coins is counter productive. The larger hash power always wins? If that's the case it would make adopting a better (imaginary) coin impossible. There is no higher authority in this case. So the burden rests with the individuals. Do the right thing.

I agree that there's a sense of mistrust.  It has always been ok for the pool operator to do what they will with the hashes.  I don't think anyone clearly thought this out in the past.  

As to verbal contract, it was a web sign up.  What you see is what you get.  The only terms were what is/was on the page when you agreed.

The larger hash power always wins.  That is how the e-currencies are setup and that is what everyone accepts.  It is the principal reason people are concerned about splitting up the hash power among several alt chains.  Basically, "United we stand, divided we fall" type thing.

[imsaguy]

When you sign up for Eligius, the terms state you will be paid X BTC per share and Y NMC per valid share you submit.  NO WHERE does it say that the shares will be used for the exclusive purpose of advancing the bitcoin and/or namecoin blockchains.

I hope you unknowingly sign up at a pool that uses YOUR hashing power to crack Government site passwords as well as re-encode Child Pornography videos for web publishing.... and your IP is logged as being part of the 'hashing power'.........but hey, as long as you get paid in BTC and NMC for each share, who cares what else is done with your hashing power, right ?

You realize of course, that everyone only knows about this because it was announced.  It wasn't hidden.  Now just imagine what the pools are doing and NOT telling you about.  Not just Eligius but DeepBit, slush, BTCGuild, etc..  If you're that concerned, solo mine.  Then you know, for certain, that your hashes are being used for whatever coin base(s) you want and nothing else.

[bitlane]

When you sign up for Eligius, the terms state you will be paid X BTC per share and Y NMC per valid share you submit.  NO WHERE does it say that the shares will be used for the exclusive purpose of advancing the bitcoin and/or namecoin blockchains.

What YOU are basically saying is that, it's nobody's business what the hashing power is used for, as long as it is partially used for BTC......
The Pool Op can do whatever he/she chooses to do with it....WITHOUT the miner's consent.

You almost got it..

What I'm saying is that for all PPS pools, you are being paid for shares.  Those shares can be used however the pool wants.  Hell, some pools pay you for stale shares just because they want to.  You do work (make shares) and get paid for it.  How the work is then used is up to whomever bought it in the first place.  If you don't like those terms, find somewhere that has more agreeable terms to you.

That's a set of KEEPERS.....quotes that will live in infamy.


....and once again, I propose (using YOUR rationalization of fair use that is)

I hope you unknowingly sign up at a pool that uses YOUR hashing power to crack Government site passwords as well as re-encode Child Pornography videos for web publishing.... and your IP is logged as being part of the 'hashing power'.........but hey, as long as you get paid in BTC and NMC for each share, who cares what else is done with your hashing power, right ?

How could someone be as THICK as you ? ......you seem to have no clue.

[imsaguy]

It is the principal reason people are concerned about splitting up the hash power among several alt chains.  Basically, "United we stand, divided we fall" type thing.

These were merged mined that were stabbed in the back by the "United we stand, divided we fall" crowd it seems, so no split at all, but don't let facts get in your way.

It is a split when the alt chain doesn't support merged mining or if you're mining on a pool that does support it but is so small that the blocks keep getting orphaned.

[OneMINER]

I agree that there's a sense of mistrust.  It has always been ok for the pool operator to do what they will with the hashes.  I don't think anyone clearly thought this out in the past.  

As to verbal contract, it was a web sign up.  What you see is what you get.  The only terms were what is/was on the page when you agreed.

The larger hash power always wins.  That is how the e-currencies are setup and that is what everyone accepts.  It is the principal reason people are concerned about splitting up the hash power among several alt chains.  Basically, "United we stand, divided we fall" type thing.
[/quote]

I disagree. I don't think it has ever been ok for a pool operator to do whatever they want. Why are they above morality?

It clearly is not a verbal contract you have with your pool. I mean its similar to one. Attacking alt coins is basically the opposite to mining your own. Whatever the agreement between the miner and pool that kind of behavior is extraordinary.

I reject the assumption that "united we stand, divided we fall" is grounds for an attack. The actions in question were malicious. I do not grant Luke or anybody else the authority to choose which coins will succeed or fail. I do not excuse bad behavior. This is not the wild west and it does matter how you act. I urge my fellow miners to vote with their feet and run from any pool that would take such liberties with their members.

EDIT: Stupid quotes. I don't understand them...

[rjk]

To mine blocks but intentionally discard transactions by not including them in the blocks is certainly counterproductive. Is this what happened?

[imsaguy]

To mine blocks but intentionally discard transactions by not including them in the blocks is certainly counterproductive. Is this what happened?

That is my understanding.  There are miners on the bitcoin network that do the same thing.  They only mine for the generations and ignore any transactions.  Nothing requires a miner to include a transaction.

[bitlane]

The actions in question were malicious. I do not grant Luke or anybody else the authority to choose which coins will succeed or fail. I do not excuse bad behavior. This is not the wild west and it does matter how you act. I urge my fellow miners to vote with their feet and run from any pool that would take such liberties with their members.

Well said. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.......It's unfortunate that more people do not feel the same way.

[rjk]

To mine blocks but intentionally discard transactions by not including them in the blocks is certainly counterproductive. Is this what happened?

That is my understanding.  There are miners on the bitcoin network that do the same thing.  They only mine for the generations and ignore any transactions.  Nothing requires a miner to include a transaction.

This supports my statement of "counterproductive" - Not including a TX means not collecting the fee. The folks that do this will need to fix their systems before long, especially when the reward halves.