BiblePay | 10% to Orphan-Charity | RANDOMX MINING | Sanctuaries (Masternodes)

[znffal]

Let's look at this a different way.  Let's say I go to Prestonwood Baptist church, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  They might ask,"Are you buying it?" I'd have to say, "No, I'm just mining the pea-wodding out of it.  It has a limited supply, but so do the other 1550 and increasing other coins available."  They would feel like suckers being taken advantage of.

But! If we have stake based on RAC, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  And they ask,"Are you buying it?"  I have to say, "Yes! For every computer I add that does crunching, I have to either hold or buy biblepay."  (With magnitude based staking, the amount I have to stake should decrease as the network grows: MAGSHARE=MAG/USERBASE as user base expands, my share of the MAG becomes smaller.)  Then they might say, "Oh, it sounds like a good idea if you are buying and holding right alongside me, even though I'm not that interested in crunching."  And I could say, "Yep, go for it!"

Honestly I think either will work, RAC or magnitude. I just like magnitude because it scales with the network size. But either or will do for me.

[aikida3k]

Let's look at this a different way.  Let's say I go to Prestonwood Baptist church, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  They might ask,"Are you buying it?" I'd have to say, "No, I'm just mining the pea-wodding out of it.  It has a limited supply, but so do the other 1550 and increasing other coins available."  They would feel like suckers being taken advantage of.

But! If we have stake based on RAC, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  And they ask,"Are you buying it?"  I have to say, "Yes! For every computer I add that does crunching, I have to either hold or buy biblepay."  (With magnitude based staking, the amount I have to stake should decrease as the network grows: MAGSHARE=MAG/USERBASE as user base expands, my share of the MAG becomes smaller.)  Then they might say, "Oh, it sounds like a good idea if you are buying and holding right alongside me, even though I'm not that interested in crunching."  And I could say, "Yep, go for it!"

Honestly I think either will work, RAC or magnitude. I just like magnitude because it scales with the network size. But either or will do for me.

The simplest way I look at is, Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.  Always, even when supply is 3 Billion.  For RAC our current RAC is 1.3M So if we do 20 BBP per RAC that is 26 million lockup.  If we have a 10 million RAC with x larger supply that is a 200 million lockup.  Woo-hoo! We just engineered ourselves higher prices at a fraction of the cost of a masternode, important especially when masternodes become unaffordable.  It is important to consistently seek some way to keep mopping up supply.  This coin has a lot of supply on the front end.  It will take time for the supply to consolidate.  If bitcoin goes way up, we will still have a high effusion rate, people won't be able to afford to buy as much biblepay.  If we keep growing the stake amount with the RAC of the network, we do something to give buyers confidence that the coin won't collapse.  Buyers are the ones who truly support the orphans, not miners and crunchers.

Even when the exchanges are out of maintenance, take some time to read the tape when the prices suddenly go up.  Prices go up by surprise because liquidity dried up and people are willing to pay higher and higher prices.  They take out those standing limit offers.  Then the miners start to come in when they realize prices just got higher.  At first, they put out limits on the offer.  When those stop getting hit, they start to get desperate and start hitting the bid, soaking up liquidity the other way.  Then prices come back down.  It would help to have a consistent way to soak up supply and we would engineer higher prices much in the way companies buy back their own stock.  Miners are part of the company.  Miners accumulating bbp as the network grows helps prices to appreciate.

For reference the current masternode lockup has 262 million bpp.  And since the start of masternodes we are consistently 20 or more satoshi higher.  So more lockup should mean higher prices, and more orphans supported.  A win for everybody.

[aikida3k]

THE biggest risk in this coin is that BTC shoots up, we are still at our high effusion rate and the miners swamp the coin with supply to get a hold of bitcoin.  Mining BBP then becomes a back door way to mine BTC.  Staking to RAC also helps to take care of that risk.

[dave_bbp]

Let's look at this a different way.  Let's say I go to Prestonwood Baptist church, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  They might ask,"Are you buying it?" I'd have to say, "No, I'm just mining the pea-wodding out of it.  It has a limited supply, but so do the other 1550 and increasing other coins available."  They would feel like suckers being taken advantage of.

But! If we have stake based on RAC, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  And they ask,"Are you buying it?"  I have to say, "Yes! For every computer I add that does crunching, I have to either hold or buy biblepay."  (With magnitude based staking, the amount I have to stake should decrease as the network grows: MAGSHARE=MAG/USERBASE as user base expands, my share of the MAG becomes smaller.)  Then they might say, "Oh, it sounds like a good idea if you are buying and holding right alongside me, even though I'm not that interested in crunching."  And I could say, "Yep, go for it!"

Honestly I think either will work, RAC or magnitude. I just like magnitude because it scales with the network size. But either or will do for me.

The simplest way I look at is, Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.  Always, even when supply is 3 Billion.  For RAC our current RAC is 1.3M So if we do 20 BBP per RAC that is 26 million lockup.  If we have a 10 million RAC with x larger supply that is a 200 million lockup.  Woo-hoo! We just engineered ourselves higher prices at a fraction of the cost of a masternode, important especially when masternodes become unaffordable.  It is important to consistently seek some way to keep mopping up supply.  This coin has a lot of supply on the front end.  It will take time for the supply to consolidate.  If bitcoin goes way up, we will still have a high effusion rate, people won't be able to afford to buy as much biblepay.  If we keep growing the stake amount with the RAC of the network, we do something to give buyers confidence that the coin won't collapse.  Buyers are the ones who truly support the orphans, not miners and crunchers.

Even when the exchanges are out of maintenance, take some time to read the tape when the prices suddenly go up.  Prices go up by surprise because liquidity dried up and people are willing to pay higher and higher prices.  They take out those standing limit offers.  Then the miners start to come in when they realize prices just got higher.  At first, they put out limits on the offer.  When those stop getting hit, they start to get desperate and start hitting the bid, soaking up liquidity the other way.  Then prices come back down.  It would help to have a consistent way to soak up supply and we would engineer higher prices much in the way companies buy back their own stock.  Miners are part of the company.  Miners accumulating bbp as the network grows helps prices to appreciate.

For reference the current masternode lockup has 262 million bpp.  And since the start of masternodes we are consistently 20 or more satoshi higher.  So more lockup should mean higher prices, and more orphans supported.  A win for everybody.

Finally someone analyzing this from the economic/trading side. I think you make a very valid and excellent point. On the long run this coin will have to gain value and thus market cap to be taken seriously. This will never happen without generating incentives for people to buy it. The sancs were a very good start to that, as you already explained. Now the goal should definitely be to get miners "hooked" and convince them to hold instead of filling up the ask on every exchange.
Requiring staked amounts proportional to the individual's wealth AND the general supply should guarantee this.



Edit: Apparently we have a new visitor from china: https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/show_user.php?userid=1988192. However, he has his computers hidden (he's currently on RAC 19k). As I recall it, there was some kind of rule stating that you have to have your machines visible in order to get paid, is this rule still intact?

[aikida3k]

Thanks, Dave.  I'd like to have a vote to choose between stake based on MAG versus stake based on RAC.

[tmike]

Thanks, Dave.  I'd like to have a vote to choose between stake based on MAG versus stake based on RAC.

Just start one on the forum! How many BBP are you suggesting per RAC?

[aikida3k]

I liked the idea of 20 per RAC but I'm flexible.  I would be fine with it coming down over time based on the effusion rate, too.  The details can be worked out if it gets voted in.

[znffal]

I liked the idea of 20 per RAC but I'm flexible.  I would be fine with it coming down over time based on the effusion rate, too.  The details can be worked out if it gets voted in.

I think 20/RAC would be a minimum for me.

[aikida3k]

Okay, here is the Poll: Staking based on MAG versus Staking based on RAC up for 1 week.

http://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?topic=131.0



Thanks, Tmike!

[tmike]

I liked the idea of 20 per RAC but I'm flexible.  I would be fine with it coming down over time based on the effusion rate, too.  The details can be worked out if it gets voted in.

I think 20/RAC would be a minimum for me.

Can you explain what your talking about? I don't understand.

[znffal]

I liked the idea of 20 per RAC but I'm flexible.  I would be fine with it coming down over time based on the effusion rate, too.  The details can be worked out if it gets voted in.

I think 20/RAC would be a minimum for me.

Can you explain what your talking about? I don't understand.

If we staked with RAC I'd want a Min of 20 bbp per RAC

[znffal]

Let's look at this a different way.  Let's say I go to Prestonwood Baptist church, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  They might ask,"Are you buying it?" I'd have to say, "No, I'm just mining the pea-wodding out of it.  It has a limited supply, but so do the other 1550 and increasing other coins available."  They would feel like suckers being taken advantage of.

But! If we have stake based on RAC, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  And they ask,"Are you buying it?"  I have to say, "Yes! For every computer I add that does crunching, I have to either hold or buy biblepay."  (With magnitude based staking, the amount I have to stake should decrease as the network grows: MAGSHARE=MAG/USERBASE as user base expands, my share of the MAG becomes smaller.)  Then they might say, "Oh, it sounds like a good idea if you are buying and holding right alongside me, even though I'm not that interested in crunching."  And I could say, "Yep, go for it!"

Honestly I think either will work, RAC or magnitude. I just like magnitude because it scales with the network size. But either or will do for me.

The simplest way I look at is, Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.  Always, even when supply is 3 Billion.  For RAC our current RAC is 1.3M So if we do 20 BBP per RAC that is 26 million lockup.  If we have a 10 million RAC with x larger supply that is a 200 million lockup.  Woo-hoo! We just engineered ourselves higher prices at a fraction of the cost of a masternode, important especially when masternodes become unaffordable.  It is important to consistently seek some way to keep mopping up supply.  This coin has a lot of supply on the front end.  It will take time for the supply to consolidate.  If bitcoin goes way up, we will still have a high effusion rate, people won't be able to afford to buy as much biblepay.  If we keep growing the stake amount with the RAC of the network, we do something to give buyers confidence that the coin won't collapse.  Buyers are the ones who truly support the orphans, not miners and crunchers.

Even when the exchanges are out of maintenance, take some time to read the tape when the prices suddenly go up.  Prices go up by surprise because liquidity dried up and people are willing to pay higher and higher prices.  They take out those standing limit offers.  Then the miners start to come in when they realize prices just got higher.  At first, they put out limits on the offer.  When those stop getting hit, they start to get desperate and start hitting the bid, soaking up liquidity the other way.  Then prices come back down.  It would help to have a consistent way to soak up supply and we would engineer higher prices much in the way companies buy back their own stock.  Miners are part of the company.  Miners accumulating bbp as the network grows helps prices to appreciate.

For reference the current masternode lockup has 262 million bpp.  And since the start of masternodes we are consistently 20 or more satoshi higher.  So more lockup should mean higher prices, and more orphans supported.  A win for everybody.

"Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million."

I don't think this is true. Now, but more as as our group RAC grows, many miners/boincers will have less than 1magnitude. They still need to stake the equivalent of 1 magnitude, let's say 50k. Therefore, the total can be significantly more than 50 million

[aikida3k]

Let's look at this a different way.  Let's say I go to Prestonwood Baptist church, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  They might ask,"Are you buying it?" I'd have to say, "No, I'm just mining the pea-wodding out of it.  It has a limited supply, but so do the other 1550 and increasing other coins available."  They would feel like suckers being taken advantage of.

But! If we have stake based on RAC, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  And they ask,"Are you buying it?"  I have to say, "Yes! For every computer I add that does crunching, I have to either hold or buy biblepay."  (With magnitude based staking, the amount I have to stake should decrease as the network grows: MAGSHARE=MAG/USERBASE as user base expands, my share of the MAG becomes smaller.)  Then they might say, "Oh, it sounds like a good idea if you are buying and holding right alongside me, even though I'm not that interested in crunching."  And I could say, "Yep, go for it!"

Honestly I think either will work, RAC or magnitude. I just like magnitude because it scales with the network size. But either or will do for me.

The simplest way I look at is, Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.  Always, even when supply is 3 Billion.  For RAC our current RAC is 1.3M So if we do 20 BBP per RAC that is 26 million lockup.  If we have a 10 million RAC with x larger supply that is a 200 million lockup.  Woo-hoo! We just engineered ourselves higher prices at a fraction of the cost of a masternode, important especially when masternodes become unaffordable.  It is important to consistently seek some way to keep mopping up supply.  This coin has a lot of supply on the front end.  It will take time for the supply to consolidate.  If bitcoin goes way up, we will still have a high effusion rate, people won't be able to afford to buy as much biblepay.  If we keep growing the stake amount with the RAC of the network, we do something to give buyers confidence that the coin won't collapse.  Buyers are the ones who truly support the orphans, not miners and crunchers.

Even when the exchanges are out of maintenance, take some time to read the tape when the prices suddenly go up.  Prices go up by surprise because liquidity dried up and people are willing to pay higher and higher prices.  They take out those standing limit offers.  Then the miners start to come in when they realize prices just got higher.  At first, they put out limits on the offer.  When those stop getting hit, they start to get desperate and start hitting the bid, soaking up liquidity the other way.  Then prices come back down.  It would help to have a consistent way to soak up supply and we would engineer higher prices much in the way companies buy back their own stock.  Miners are part of the company.  Miners accumulating bbp as the network grows helps prices to appreciate.

For reference the current masternode lockup has 262 million bpp.  And since the start of masternodes we are consistently 20 or more satoshi higher.  So more lockup should mean higher prices, and more orphans supported.  A win for everybody.

Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.

I don't think this is true. Now, but more as as our group RAC grows, many miners/boincers will have less than 1magnitude. They still need to stake the equivalent of 1 magnitude, let's say 50k. Therefore, the total can be significantly more than 50 million

If that is the case, then staking based on RAC is much more equitable between users.  Having to stake 50,000 bbp for a fraction of a magnitude for a PC that does say 500 RAC, that same user would only have to stake 10,000, which is more equitable for the reward received for smaller users.

Staking based on RAC also makes bbp worth 1/20 of a RAC and biblepay is the compensation you get for doing crunching and using electricity, computers and time.  1/20 of a RAC is actual intrinsic value.  That is something that would actually back biblepay.  And why would you choose to stake bbp instead of crunching boinc on your own?  Because you get compensated in bbp for crunching.

[aikida3k]

Tmike said on the other forum that less than 1000 RAC shouldn't require staking, and I would agree with that. Good idea. 

I'm thinking if the RAC is below 1000 you don't need to stake and limit it to Windows and Android machines and no Xeon processors.

[znffal]

Let's look at this a different way.  Let's say I go to Prestonwood Baptist church, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  They might ask,"Are you buying it?" I'd have to say, "No, I'm just mining the pea-wodding out of it.  It has a limited supply, but so do the other 1550 and increasing other coins available."  They would feel like suckers being taken advantage of.

But! If we have stake based on RAC, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  And they ask,"Are you buying it?"  I have to say, "Yes! For every computer I add that does crunching, I have to either hold or buy biblepay."  (With magnitude based staking, the amount I have to stake should decrease as the network grows: MAGSHARE=MAG/USERBASE as user base expands, my share of the MAG becomes smaller.)  Then they might say, "Oh, it sounds like a good idea if you are buying and holding right alongside me, even though I'm not that interested in crunching."  And I could say, "Yep, go for it!"

Honestly I think either will work, RAC or magnitude. I just like magnitude because it scales with the network size. But either or will do for me.

The simplest way I look at is, Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.  Always, even when supply is 3 Billion.  For RAC our current RAC is 1.3M So if we do 20 BBP per RAC that is 26 million lockup.  If we have a 10 million RAC with x larger supply that is a 200 million lockup.  Woo-hoo! We just engineered ourselves higher prices at a fraction of the cost of a masternode, important especially when masternodes become unaffordable.  It is important to consistently seek some way to keep mopping up supply.  This coin has a lot of supply on the front end.  It will take time for the supply to consolidate.  If bitcoin goes way up, we will still have a high effusion rate, people won't be able to afford to buy as much biblepay.  If we keep growing the stake amount with the RAC of the network, we do something to give buyers confidence that the coin won't collapse.  Buyers are the ones who truly support the orphans, not miners and crunchers.

Even when the exchanges are out of maintenance, take some time to read the tape when the prices suddenly go up.  Prices go up by surprise because liquidity dried up and people are willing to pay higher and higher prices.  They take out those standing limit offers.  Then the miners start to come in when they realize prices just got higher.  At first, they put out limits on the offer.  When those stop getting hit, they start to get desperate and start hitting the bid, soaking up liquidity the other way.  Then prices come back down.  It would help to have a consistent way to soak up supply and we would engineer higher prices much in the way companies buy back their own stock.  Miners are part of the company.  Miners accumulating bbp as the network grows helps prices to appreciate.

For reference the current masternode lockup has 262 million bpp.  And since the start of masternodes we are consistently 20 or more satoshi higher.  So more lockup should mean higher prices, and more orphans supported.  A win for everybody.

Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.

I don't think this is true. Now, but more as as our group RAC grows, many miners/boincers will have less than 1magnitude. They still need to stake the equivalent of 1 magnitude, let's say 50k. Therefore, the total can be significantly more than 50 million

If that is the case, then staking based on RAC is much more equitable between users.  Having to stake 50,000 bbp for a fraction of a magnitude for a PC that does say 500 RAC, that same user would only have to stake 10,000, which is more equitable for the reward received for smaller users.

Staking based on RAC also makes bbp worth 1/20 of a RAC and biblepay is the compensation you get for doing crunching and using electricity, computers and time.  1/20 of a RAC is actual intrinsic value.  That is something that would actually back biblepay.  And why would you choose to stake bbp instead of crunching boinc on your own?  Because you get compensated in bbp for crunching.

We'll I hope I've made it clear that I think both will work, as long as we require someone  who is trying  to or control 50% of our rewards to stake a very significant number of BBP.

Personally in your vote I voted for magnitude, but I see both sides, and I'm glad you are thinking this through deeply and presenting counter arguments in an intelligent and respectful way

[znffal]

Tmike said on the other forum that less than 1000 RAC shouldn't require staking, and I would agree with that. Good idea.  

I'm thinking if the RAC is below 1000 you don't need to stake and limit it to Windows and Android machines and no Xeon processors.

I disagree with that due to the possibility of people circumventing stake with multiple accounts

Edit: note that unbanked will need no stake on mobile if I understand correctly

[aikida3k]

You're right about the multiple CPID work around.  Still a neat idea in principle.

I am passionate about this coin and I think making the right decisions now, we could really make this into something more special than it already is.  I am really pleased with the way Rob has been able to integrate BOINC with Biblepay.  We are now getting compensation for work done.  Now if we add staking based on RAC that gives each BBP 1/20 of a RAC value; an intrinsic value that even bitcoin lacks.  

Thanks for your kind words, znffal.

[capulo]

another botnet )
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/show_user.php?userid=1988192

is it possible to force not mask computers as we force biblepay team?
to check that somebody will not have 500 low-mid end home computers = botnet

[diptocoli]

I have been miner for two days, Total Payments 0, is it correct and when will it be paid?Thanks.

Code:

  "Command": "getboincinfo",
  "CPID": "60149dc91a174ad414f80fe8f60c6ab5",
  "Address": "BHcugJRLBYoeYZK6wbhERHKvP5xdXY2Ay1",
  "CPIDS": "60149dc91a174ad414f80fe8f60c6ab5;",
  "CPID-Age (hours)": 422455,
  "NextSuperblockHeight": 34235,
  "NextSuperblockBudget": 2660579,
  "60149dc91a174ad414f80fe8f60c6ab5_ADDRESS": "BHcugJRLBYoeYZK6wbhERHKvP5xdXY2Ay1",
  "60149dc91a174ad414f80fe8f60c6ab5_RAC": 2441.27,
  "60149dc91a174ad414f80fe8f60c6ab5_TEAM": 15044,
  "60149dc91a174ad414f80fe8f60c6ab5_TaskWeight": 100,
  "60149dc91a174ad414f80fe8f60c6ab5_UTXOWeight": 50001,
  "Total_RAC": 2441.27,
  "Total Payments (One Day)": 0,
  "Total Payments (One Week)": 0,
  "Total Budget (One Day)": 2660579,
  "Total Budget (One Week)": 7981737,
  "Superblock Count (One Week)": 3,
  "Superblock Hit Count (One Week)": 3,
  "Superblock List": "34030,33825,33620",
  "Last Superblock Height": 34030,
  "Last Superblock Budget": 2660579,
  "Last Superblock Payment": 0,
  "Magnitude (One-Day)": 0,
  "Magnitude (One-Week)": 0

[Ben271286]

Hey. Is this the guide to set up a masternode and is it working?

http://wiki.biblepay.org/Create_Sanctuary_2

Thanks!