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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 875460 times)
Bicknellski
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August 25, 2013, 02:33:21 AM
 #861

That sounds not too bad if we don't make ROI with initial machine. So we can just send you some money (board/assemble/shipping) and the chip is included free.

I just don't like the idea of even spending more/risking more after already spending big to earn more.

I share your fear... as an Avalon Chip Group Buy leader I want more security for our cooperative members as well as customers. That is why when we did planning for our production of  the K1 we had our own money backing the units production not the "pre-sales" we made in BTC from customers. When we realized that Avalon was going to bock the chip shipments we pulled the plug and immediately started refunds of BTC. That is how we handled it acting as the "escrow" and the supplier... risky for the customer but we knew we were good on our promise and planned for utter failure by storing the BTC to one side never touched.

I suspect the MPP is a great move forward but yes we have to be careful, we have to question every detail and if you can't risk it don't buy it is the best solution. Personally I want chips. I want to see the DIY community to take on new and better companies that will deliver. Hash Fast seems to be sending out the right signals but we need to see the chips, the delivery and get those units in our hands before we can really pass judgement. At this point this community is rightly cautious and needs to remain that way.

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HashFast
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August 25, 2013, 02:33:52 AM
 #862

How much would the board/rig cost anyway minus the chip? You should have some figures already in mind.

1k? 2k? 3k?

It'll be towards the low end of your spectrum.
-John

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August 25, 2013, 02:40:25 AM
 #863

For the board, or fully assembled rig ?
plasmoske
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August 25, 2013, 02:42:15 AM
 #864

Alright cool. 1.5k for board/rig minus the chip. You heard it here first ladies and gents :-P

I didn't mention any assembly so I'm assuming that's not taken into account.

1.5k + assembly + delivery = Your answer
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August 25, 2013, 02:42:59 AM
 #865

No Refunds, No Paypal or Credit Cards you are only asking for disaster , with that 3rd party protection out, They CAN DELAY and they can also don't deliver at all, is Avalon in the making. The Sheep wool is HF but deep inside is Avalon.

Guarantee no protection for your payments and No Refunds.


Now trying to please those in the DIY industry, and create interest from there, making pcb and these suckers will get suck into this tricks of theirs because the DIY guys will want to make money off others by selling their pcb when HF choose to sell the chips that will definitely be DELAY.
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August 25, 2013, 05:29:13 AM
 #866

Alright cool. 1.5k for board/rig minus the chip. You heard it here first ladies and gents :-P

I didn't mention any assembly so I'm assuming that's not taken into account.

1.5k + assembly + delivery = Your answer

I think you'll be happy with the details when we release them.

-John

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August 25, 2013, 05:39:49 AM
 #867

I'll try my best to be positive  Grin
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August 25, 2013, 06:02:30 AM
 #868

That's all I can ask for Smiley

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August 25, 2013, 06:04:42 AM
 #869

Thanks HashFast.

After the initial screw ups with the webshop and all it seems you guys are moving in the right direction. I'm happy with the MPP as it stands (including the fact that ROI is calculated in BTC, as it should). So kudos for that Smiley

Looking forward to the upcoming news on the tapeout!
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August 25, 2013, 08:58:54 AM
 #870

Sorry if this was answered before, but do you provide hosting for BabyJets?
I can't receive any shipments from the end of October and for 2 months, that's why I upgraded to hosting with KnC. And would need hosting from HF if I were to diversify.

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“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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August 25, 2013, 09:13:17 AM
 #871

Sorry if this was answered before, but do you provide hosting for BabyJets?
I can't receive any shipments from the end of October and for 2 months, that's why I upgraded to hosting with KnC. And would need hosting from HF if I were to diversify.

We are working on this, but don't yet have a solution in place.
-John

eve
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August 25, 2013, 09:15:05 AM
 #872

Remember they NEVER say they will refund you in the event of delay or difficulty increase tremendously. So bye bye with your money since they don't accept credit cards and paypal.

You have no recourse or refund options !!


2.80 per gh/s is all bull shit.
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August 25, 2013, 09:16:52 AM
 #873

So, you get 2x the amount of hashrate you would have needed in order to break even at the time you actually got your machine, three months after you actually bought it - and you only get chips, not assembled units.

The problem is: this doesn't work if the network hash-rate goes up by more then 4x in those three months.  Which is obviously going to happen with KnC/Cointerra/Avalon 2/Labcoin/etc all coming online in that time period.

To put it into comparison, in the past three months, the hashrate has gone from about 100m to about 500m.   A five-fold increase.

On the other hand it could be that things start to "calm down" after the end of the year.

KnC has a much simpler miner protection plan - if you're not happy with the difficulty, you can cancel your order and get a 100% refund.

And, unlike what other people said, getting a refund means 100% ROI. You just don't get anything more then that.

Anyway, the real money is in LABCOIN shares, people.   They're already up to 3.6x their IPO price. 

eve
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August 25, 2013, 09:26:44 AM
 #874

PAYMENT.

(a)     Payments are due in the amounts, in the currency, and at the time stated in the order or confirmation sent by Hashfast, or if not so stated: (a) paid Bitcoin, to the account designated by Hashfast; (b) within thirty (30) days of date of invoice.  If Hashfast incurs exchange rate losses due to Buyer’s failure to pay when payments are due, Hashfast shall be entitled to equivalent compensation from Buyer for such lossesHashfast is not responsible for pricing, typographical or other errors in any offer by Hashfast and reserves the right to cancel any orders arising from such errors.

(b)    Interest will accrue on all late payments, at the rate of 18% per annum or the applicable statutory rate, whichever is higher and to the extent permitted by applicable law, from the due date until payment in full.  In the event of any default by Buyer in the payment of any fees or charges due, or any other default by Buyer, Hashfast shall have the right to refuse delivery of any Products until payments are brought current and Hashfast may suspend, delay or cancel any credit, delivery or any other performance by Hashfast. Such right shall be in addition to, and not in lieu of, any other rights and remedies available under the Agreement or at law or in equity for Buyer’s default.

(c)     Prices are based on delivery Ex-Works (Incoterms 2000) Hashfast’s manufacturing facility or other facility designated by Hashfast, unless agreed otherwise in writing between Buyer and Hashfast and do not include any taxes, insurance, duties or similar levies (“Taxes”).  Buyer will pay all Taxes.  If Hashfast is required by law to pay or collect Taxes, Buyer will pay such Taxes to Hashfast upon invoice.  Buyer will pay all shipping costs.


Bye Bye to your money, NO REFUND. Only BTC and Wire funds.


    DELIVERY AND QUANTITIES.

(a)     Guaranteed Baby Jet Delivery Dates.  All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013.  If Buyer ordered one or more units of such Baby Jets, and Hashfast does not deliver such units by that date, then Buyer may cancel the undelivered portion of the order at Buyer’s request and Hashfast will refund the payment for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled.   This cancellation and refund is Buyer’s sole and exclusive remedy for Hashfast failing to deliver by the December 31, 2013 guaranteed delivery date, and Buyer must cancel the order by January 15, 2014 to avail itself of this remedy.

(a)    WARRANTY AGAINST DEFECTS.  Hashfast warrants that under normal use the Products (excluding those referred to in Section 7(b) below) shall, at the time of delivery to Buyer and be substantially free from defects in material or workmanship and shall substantially conform to Hashfast’s specifications for such Product.   Buyer will notify Hashfast in writing of any non-conforming Products within ten (10) days of delivery, otherwise Hashfast will have no further obligation or warranty for such Products. Such notice will describe in reasonable detail the non-conformance claimed by Buyer.  Delivered Product will be deemed accepted and conforming unless Buyer provides such notice within the ten (10) day period.

They have the RIGHT to deliver as late as December 31st, 2013. You can pissed and scold and curse them if they don't deliver by October! by you have no right for a REFUND.

Warranty only 10 days.


Stay Away, Stay Clear. Look worse than Avalon or Butterfly.
plasmoske
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August 25, 2013, 09:31:39 AM
 #875

Yeah the plan sounds good when your hear it but when you delve into it, it doesn't really sound that enticing.

The thing that concerns me most is:

1. Pay more to earn back ROI

2. If difficulty jumps up a shit load (which it will), then they said they will just give you even more chips.*

*3. If they do give you more chips, that would mean you would have to spend EVEN MORE in-order to get em to mine

Let's just say they end up giving you 4 to 5 chips. You'll have to spend at least another $6-7.5k to make your money back.
jspielberg
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August 25, 2013, 09:34:19 AM
 #876

So, you get 2x the amount of hashrate you would have needed in order to break even at the time you actually got your machine, three months after you actually bought it - and you only get chips, not assembled units.

The problem is: this doesn't work if the network hash-rate goes up by more then 4x in those three months.  Which is obviously going to happen with KnC/Cointerra/Avalon 2/Labcoin/etc all coming online in that time period.

To put it into comparison, in the past three months, the hashrate has gone from about 100m to about 500m.   A five-fold increase.

On the other hand it could be that things start to "calm down" after the end of the year.

KnC has a much simpler miner protection plan - if you're not happy with the difficulty, you can cancel your order and get a 100% refund.

And, unlike what other people said, getting a refund means 100% ROI. You just don't get anything more then that.

Anyway, the real money is in LABCOIN shares, people.   They're already up to 3.6x their IPO price. 

Agreed Ytterbium... the math doesn't seem to work out to get the extra hash power which would have been required at the beginning  -- but 3 months later.  The moving target has moved. 

Regarding Labcoin... you are probably right, but some of us old school miners will be averse to joining a centralizing mining entity... even if we know it is the future of bitcoin.  Cry

plasmoske
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August 25, 2013, 09:38:38 AM
 #877

Don't forget ASIC mining deploying their next gen chips as well in October. So by end of the year, the numbers are going to look insane compared to now.

And the MPP as stated on their website is not an insurance policy. They don't even have to follow through with it if they don't want to. Difficulty jumps up a shit ton. Now they'll need to give out a whole lot of chips which they don't have? Then no1 gets the chips.

They might as well just give everyone a free chip now with their orders.
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August 25, 2013, 03:41:18 PM
 #878

Don't forget ASIC mining deploying....

Did you mean firedcat's ASICminer ?

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August 25, 2013, 08:04:40 PM
 #879

Yeah the plan sounds good when your hear it but when you delve into it, it doesn't really sound that enticing.

The thing that concerns me most is:

1. Pay more to earn back ROI

2. If difficulty jumps up a shit load (which it will), then they said they will just give you even more chips.*

*3. If they do give you more chips, that would mean you would have to spend EVEN MORE in-order to get em to mine

Let's just say they end up giving you 4 to 5 chips. You'll have to spend at least another $6-7.5k to make your money back.

The one thing it does do is make the math much more complicated to model. With a fixed price/Gh you just plug it into http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ and see how it looks for a given difficulty increase rate.  

The simple model would, given a start date t0, a hashrate h, an overall network hashrate function f(t)  - just integrate ∫(f(t)/h dt/dBTC) from t0 to infinity (where dBTC is the change in the total number of btc already mined).  

If you have a probability density function for t0 you can just do a double integral over t0, and t.  f(t) is usually modeled with an exponential function so that should be pretty easy.  

In order to model ROI given the MPP you need too:

1) Estimate the probability distribution for when you'll get your unit, call that x.
2) estimate your ROI over 90 days using the typical mining estimation model.
3) for each value of t0 and f(t), calculate how much hashrate you would have needed to see an ROI = 100%
4) then, divide that number by 400 and take the integer ceiling, or 4, whichever is less.
5) now, estimate the cost acquiring the PCB for the chips,
6) also estimate how much time it'll take to get the chips and the PCBs and everything assembled call that t1
7) do a new mining calculation on that starting at t0 + 90 days + t1, at which point the range of possible total network hashrate will be much more difficult to estimate.
8] see if the ROI on the second calculation, plus the first 90 day calculation is greater then 100% of your initial purchase cost + the cost of getting PCBs/Cases/etc for the new chips.

So... basically what the MPP does is massively increase uncertainty.  You'll probably make more then you otherwise would but it's basically impossible to guess how much more. Especially since the extra chips will be based on the hashrate when you got the miner, not at the time you get the chips through the MPP.

It's another example of HashFast foisting all the risk onto the "investomer".  Unless there is a perfect balance between network growth and HashFast's ability to execute, the investomer loses. The MPP just creates a couple more possible 'balance points' the likelihood of which are impossible to guess and also depends on HashFast.

On the other hand, no matter what happens HashFast makes a ton of money.

That's why I feel that investing in companies virtual-stock Labcoin are the best, and really the way to go right now. Maybe when the diff starts to max out you'll be able to buy cheap chips again.   There are additional risks in that they could be total scams, and the principals could just run off with your money, or they could skim off the top and keep revenue for themselves.    

But, excluding that (and it's obviously a big exclusion) the incentives are aligned.  If they make money, you make money. And (again, excluding embezzling IPO funds) if they fail to execute and you lose your money - they don't get anything either.

Being treated as a "real" investor is much better then being an "investomer" who bears most of the risk despite low probability of rewards compared to the vendors.

(Plus, with the shares you can sell at any time.  Labcoin is 3.2x it's IPO price at the moment...)

noah tall
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August 25, 2013, 08:47:21 PM
 #880

I'm a Labcoin Lapdog, yes I am.  Everybody buy Labcoin.  Don't even look at anything else!

The MPP says that if you don't make back your investment in a couple of months, HashFast will make sure you do.  Why would anybody have a problem with that?  Oh, right, it's not the company Ytterbium invested in.
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