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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 865648 times)
cypherdoc
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October 22, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
 #1601

First of all, you were incorrect....  It's not 1400, and also not 1300.  It is, as i have suggested, 780, as could be easily calculated from the product description here.  Each chip is 400 GH/s, there are 3 chips for 1200 GH/s total.  At advertised .65W/GH, that totals to 780W.  Any other number you arrive at directly contradicts the company claims.

Try to learn something for once.   The efficiency of the chip isn't the entire power requirement of the entire system.

The reported efficiency AT NOMINAL HASHRATE is ~0.65 J/GH.  So at 400 GH/s that is 260W @ ~1VDC (actually voltage depends on chip spec and hasn't been reported but likely is 0.7VDC to 1.0VDC).  An ATX power supply delivers high current on the 12V rail, however no AISC runs at 12V and thus the 12VDC has the be converted to ~1VDC and conversion means energy "lost" as heat (otherwise the VRMs would be cold to the touch).  A quality high current 12 VDC to sub 1 VDC regulator is going to be ~90% efficient so that is 288W @ 12VDC per board. 288W @ 12VDC in = 260W @ ~1VDC out + 28W as heat.

Sill 288W isn't the whole story either.  The watercooling loop requires power as well.  How much?  Not sure but lets guestimate.  Each module includes 2 fans likely high RPM so lets go with 12W ea and a pump say another 6W.  So 30W per cooling loop plus 288W per board is 318W total.   Lastly there are a pair of exhaust fans.  Lets guesstimate 12W ea.  318*3 + 12*2 = 978.  So 978 not 780 watts per rig.  

At nominal hashrate (400 GH/s) & 0.65 J/GH.
Per chip -  260W @ 1VDC
Per board - 288W @ 12VDC
Per board including cooling - 318W @ 12VDC
Entire System including exhaust fans - 978W @ 12VDC

However that is only at nominal 400 GH/s hashrate.  Hashfast has indicated they believe the chips can be pushed harder.  How hard?  Well I certainly don't know and HashFast won't even know for sure until they get the final silicon but lets say they can run at 450 GH/s at nominal voltage and with a 10% overvolt can be pushed to 500 GH/s.  In Silicon devices, power consumption increases by the square of the voltage increase.  So 10% higher voltage = 21% higher power or 0.78 J/GH.
 
500 GH/s @ 0.78 J/GH  (AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY)
Per chip -  390W @ ~1VDC
Per board - 433W @ 12VDC
Per board including cooling - 463W @ 12VDC
Entire System including exhaust fans - 1,413W @ 12VDC

So designing around a 780W power supply would limit the potential of the device.   Maybe 500 GH/s per chip isn't possible but maybe 440 GH/s or 465 GH/s is.  HashFast stated there were no power supplies in the range they were looking at (1300W to 1400W DC) from vendors they were interested in.   Also stated was that even if one was available it was more expensive than two smaller units.  

SeaSonic's "X series" for example maxes out at 1250W and a 1250W unit has higher price than a pair of 750W units (1500W total).

great analysis as usual.  don't forget the PSU's are X850's (Sierras) that are 93.3% efficient (higher than the X1000 in the BJ that is 91% efficient).
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October 22, 2013, 05:15:16 PM
 #1602

...imagination-based math...
SeaSonic's "X series" for example maxes out at 1250W and a 1250W unit has higher price than a pair of 750W units (1500W total).

SeaSonic X-1250 1250W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$254.99 - ‎In stock * 1 = $254.99

SeaSonic X Series X-850 (SS-850KM3 Active PFC F3) 850W ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$169.99 - ‎In stock * 2 = $339.98

Cypher, your boy can't even count.

Edit:  For a list of 1600W power supplies, see here .

All, including Rosewill, are cheaper than a pair of x850s Smiley
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October 22, 2013, 07:43:41 PM
 #1603

Yes, actually. We anticipate making an official announcement today.
Let's see if it's a vapourware type announcement or what.
And let's see if it's today or in 2 weeks.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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October 22, 2013, 07:44:33 PM
 #1604

...imagination-based math...
SeaSonic's "X series" for example maxes out at 1250W and a 1250W unit has higher price than a pair of 750W units (1500W total).

SeaSonic X-1250 1250W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$254.99 - ‎In stock * 1 = $254.99

SeaSonic X Series X-850 (SS-850KM3 Active PFC F3) 850W ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$169.99 - ‎In stock * 2 = $339.98

Cypher, your boy can't even count.

Edit:  For a list of 1600W power supplies, see here .

All, including Rosewill, are cheaper than a pair of x850s Smiley

The LEPA has 4 30A rails and 2 20A rails, with one 20A rail going exclusively to the 24pin connector and another to the 8pin EPS, so it would be a little more of a pain to use than the two single rail X850s. You would not only need to worry about rail balancing, but would need custom adapters (or cutting off cable ends to crimp on PCIe connectors) to get all the power out of it.
The Rosewill unit would be easier with two rails at 110A and 50A, but all the PCIe connectors are on the 110A rail. Again you'd need custom cables. It's also Silver instead of Gold, and costs more than two X850s.
The Coolmax appears to be the same Sirtec design as the Rosewill Hercules (and Scythe Chouriki 2), but I'd want to test that before I chose a unit like that for a machine this expensive.
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October 22, 2013, 08:08:12 PM
 #1605

...imagination-based math...
SeaSonic's "X series" for example maxes out at 1250W and a 1250W unit has higher price than a pair of 750W units (1500W total).

SeaSonic X-1250 1250W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$254.99 - ‎In stock * 1 = $254.99

SeaSonic X Series X-850 (SS-850KM3 Active PFC F3) 850W ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$169.99 - ‎In stock * 2 = $339.98

Cypher, your boy can't even count.

Edit:  For a list of 1600W power supplies, see here .

All, including Rosewill, are cheaper than a pair of x850s Smiley

The LEPA has 4 30A rails and 2 20A rails, with one 20A rail going exclusively to the 24pin connector and another to the 8pin EPS, so it would be a little more of a pain to use than the two single rail X850s. You would not only need to worry about rail balancing, but would need custom adapters (or cutting off cable ends to crimp on PCIe connectors) to get all the power out of it.
The Rosewill unit would be easier with two rails at 110A and 50A, but all the PCIe connectors are on the 110A rail. Again you'd need custom cables. It's also Silver instead of Gold, and costs more than two X850s.
The Coolmax appears to be the same Sirtec design as the Rosewill Hercules (and Scythe Chouriki 2), but I'd want to test that before I chose a unit like that for a machine this expensive.

MrTeal, remember seeing your techy posts.  Question for you:

Do you see any potential problems with connecting two separate power supplies in parallel?  In other words, connecting the grounds together & the +12 together?   I'm not familiar with the regulation/protection circuits on ATX power supplies.  Pointers to schematics/datasheets etc. would help too. Thanks.

PS:  If you see no problem with bridging two power supplies, i assume you see no problems with bridging all 12V rails on any 1600W power supplies, either.  In which case, having custom cables made up seems much easier than some contrived reverse-flow fan mod (according to Cypherdoc, the PSs are exhausting air from the sides of the case, where a standard PS would draw it in).
Thanks for your time.
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October 22, 2013, 09:41:13 PM
 #1606

I'm a KNC customer. Have had my Saturn churning at 280Gh/s since I received it last Friday. I do want to stay in the game and this is my first shot at BTC mining. Before ASIC's were around I procrastinated too much and never invested into GPU's. I guess I'm glad, since I'd be in the same boat I'm in today. Pretty soon I'll be making no profit at all. Is there a way to still make a profit for us small time miners out there? The whole system is being eaten up by monster gobblers grabbing all the hashing power leaving the weak behind. I always thought the bitcoin system/chain would split into two. One for miners under 500Gh/s (for us small time people) and then another chain for the big guys that can't get enough. Apparently you need to dump a whole lotta money into a miner if you plan on making a profit these days. And money is something I don't have a lot of. Most of it goes to my mortgage and paying the bills. Yea, I'm a grown up and have bills to pay. Even though my KNC Saturn has been working perfectly I'm very disappointed that KNC owner's are no where to be found. They don't even visit their own forums. We basically made a few guys really rich and they disappeared. I'm not sure why they even put up their own forums if especially if they weren't going to participate in them. Anyway, I guess I was looking for feedback or information if going with another company would be the wiser decision, but as it seems I answered my own question while writing this. I'll never break even on a miner I buy today if it's in the 500-900Gh/s range. Anything above that is questionable I guess. As the old saying goes, it takes money to make money. I spent $3897 (w/ shipping) on my Saturn and I doubt I'll see half of that come back to me. I also had a buy a PSU, which cost me a $150.

By the way, the Seasonic X series exhausts in the rear. I have multiple computers, all with Seasonic PSU's in them. They are the best power supplies made, and that's why even Corsair has Seasonic make some for them. Well, adios and have fun. I'll take my .5 BTC daily and hope to keep that up as long as I can.


By the way, these are VERY good power supplies also.
http://www.corsair.com/us/power-supply-units/rm-series-power-supply-units.html


O heck, who needs to know my opinion.


Need help with your Newznab usenet indexer? http://www.newznabforums.com
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October 22, 2013, 10:19:40 PM
 #1607

hashrate is fungible, there is no difference between lots of small miners or fewer big ones. Its not one or the other causing your problem, its just that far too many people thought asic mining would be profitable, and therefore, it isnt. Its a zero sum game after all. With closed book preorders, this self defeating prophecy was predictable and predicted. Count yourself lucky though, with KnC you made the least worst 28nm choice;  you will not break even (bitcoin denominated) but you will be far better off than hashfast, cointerra and BFL customers.
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October 22, 2013, 10:25:12 PM
 #1608

...imagination-based math...
SeaSonic's "X series" for example maxes out at 1250W and a 1250W unit has higher price than a pair of 750W units (1500W total).

SeaSonic X-1250 1250W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$254.99 - ‎In stock * 1 = $254.99

SeaSonic X Series X-850 (SS-850KM3 Active PFC F3) 850W ...
www.newegg.com › ... › Power Supplies › SeaSonic USA‎
 Rating: 4 - ‎1,327 reviews - ‎$169.99 - ‎In stock * 2 = $339.98

Cypher, your boy can't even count.

Edit:  For a list of 1600W power supplies, see here .

All, including Rosewill, are cheaper than a pair of x850s Smiley

The LEPA has 4 30A rails and 2 20A rails, with one 20A rail going exclusively to the 24pin connector and another to the 8pin EPS, so it would be a little more of a pain to use than the two single rail X850s. You would not only need to worry about rail balancing, but would need custom adapters (or cutting off cable ends to crimp on PCIe connectors) to get all the power out of it.
The Rosewill unit would be easier with two rails at 110A and 50A, but all the PCIe connectors are on the 110A rail. Again you'd need custom cables. It's also Silver instead of Gold, and costs more than two X850s.
The Coolmax appears to be the same Sirtec design as the Rosewill Hercules (and Scythe Chouriki 2), but I'd want to test that before I chose a unit like that for a machine this expensive.

MrTeal, remember seeing your techy posts.  Question for you:

Do you see any potential problems with connecting two separate power supplies in parallel?  In other words, connecting the grounds together & the +12 together?   I'm not familiar with the regulation/protection circuits on ATX power supplies.  Pointers to schematics/datasheets etc. would help too. Thanks.

PS:  If you see no problem with bridging two power supplies, i assume you see no problems with bridging all 12V rails on any 1600W power supplies, either.  In which case, having custom cables made up seems much easier than some contrived reverse-flow fan mod (according to Cypherdoc, the PSs are exhausting air from the sides of the case, where a standard PS would draw it in).
Thanks for your time.
There shouldn't be any real issues with paralleling the power supplies, especially if they're the same series. It really isn't that much different that paralleling phases in a polyphase supply. The biggest problem you will likely run into is one power supply will be getting them to share the current equally. Paralleling the rails of a multi-rail design likewise isn't a big deal, I've done it myself feeding two different rails into the same GPU.
Getting custom cables made is more of a PITA to parallel things than you probably think it is though. It really is just easier to toss two PSUs in there.

Similarly, there's a huge difference in price and lead time with choosing the stock radiator dimensions that all the closed loop cooler vendors are using vs getting your own thinner and deeper one made. I really don't see an issue with their design, though I don't know why they don't just mount the intake for the PSUs on the inside and then exhaust through the back in typical fashion. Room temperature air has a typical heat capacity of ~34J/(ft^3*K) and a little manipulation gives ~1.75 °C*(ft^3/min)/W. Even if there were dumping 1200W into the case, it would only take ~200cfm to keep the air inside the case 10°C warmer than the outside air. That's well within the operating parameters of any half decent PSU.
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October 22, 2013, 11:04:10 PM
 #1609

We anticipate making an official announcement today.

Thanks Erin, looking forward to that official announcement later today. As you might have noticed this thread is becoming more trollish by the day, so we could really use some concrete progress updates in here.
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October 23, 2013, 12:08:27 AM
 #1610

...
There shouldn't be any real issues with paralleling the power supplies, especially if they're the same series. It really isn't that much different that paralleling phases in a polyphase supply. The biggest problem you will likely run into is one power supply will be getting them to share the current equally. Paralleling the rails of a multi-rail design likewise isn't a big deal, I've done it myself feeding two different rails into the same GPU.
Getting custom cables made is more of a PITA to parallel things than you probably think it is though. It really is just easier to toss two PSUs in there.

Similarly, there's a huge difference in price and lead time with choosing the stock radiator dimensions that all the closed loop cooler vendors are using vs getting your own thinner and deeper one made. I really don't see an issue with their design, though I don't know why they don't just mount the intake for the PSUs on the inside and then exhaust through the back in typical fashion. Room temperature air has a typical heat capacity of ~34J/(ft^3*K) and a little manipulation gives ~1.75 °C*(ft^3/min)/W. Even if there were dumping 1200W into the case, it would only take ~200cfm to keep the air inside the case 10°C warmer than the outside air. That's well within the operating parameters of any half decent PSU.

Hi again, thanks for taking the time for a detailed answer.  I agree that there's nothing intrinsically broken about that case design, it's just so ... ghetto.  Put yourself in my shoes:  Follow a link from Hashfast account to a Hashfast PR article, about partnering up with Seasonic & what an honor it is yadda yadda ... "unsurpassed voltage stability" ... "over three decades..." -- you get the gist.

After all that fanfare, the least i'd expect would be a nice PS without a 24 pin connector/ a paperclip jumping green to ground.
Instead i get *two* of them.  Way to partner up, Hashfast Undecided

I'm not saying the thing has to win Concours d'Elegance, but it would be nice if *some* thought went into design.  They've abandoned the 2U case idea (IceDrill is already blaming the change for causing delays), and now, with a huge 4U empty box, *THIS* is the most graceful layout they come up with?

Couldn't think of a way to let hot air outside of the case, instead of stuffing it in?
And had to vent through the sides of the case, to boot?

Finally, twin power supplies to feed 3 ASICs?  Why not a single power supply to feed 2 ASICs?
Or a power distribution sub board for all the rail bridging & power switching?  How hard is that?  A single layer PC board with some standard connectors?  With Seasonic as a partner, i think that's within reach.  Excelsior!!1!

Non of this is meant to contradict you in any way, btw.  Maybe i'm just neurotic about this stuff.
And again, sincere thanks for your time.
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October 23, 2013, 12:12:15 AM
 #1611

There shouldn't be any real issues with paralleling the power supplies, especially if they're the same series.
...
Getting custom cables made is more of a PITA to parallel things than you probably think it is though. It really is just easier to toss two PSUs in there.
...
Similarly, there's a huge difference in price and lead time with choosing the stock radiator dimensions that all the closed loop cooler vendors are using vs getting your own thinner and deeper one made. I really don't see an issue with their design, ...

Yeah agreed on all points.  Of course it has all been stated upthread but certain people are just here to troll.  

Quote
though I don't know why they don't just mount the intake for the PSUs on the inside and then exhaust through the back in typical fashion. Room temperature air has a typical heat capacity of ~34J/(ft^3*K) and a little manipulation gives ~1.75 °C*(ft^3/min)/W. Even if there were dumping 1200W into the case, it would only take ~200cfm to keep the air inside the case 10°C warmer than the outside air. That's well within the operating parameters of any half decent PSU.

crumbs was under the belief that using warmed cased air would somehow cause power supplies to fail.  It was pointed out they are DESIGNED to be used that way but facts tend to not work when people don't want to know.

Regarding the orientation of the PSU.  It is possible they can be flipped.  For non-rackmount conditions (or single open side rack) as pictured is optimal.   In datacenter environment flipping the PSU 180 deg would intake from the case and exhaust out the back (to hot aisle).

Like you I see nothing "wrong" with HashFast design.   It is a compromise between optimal design and speed of poduction.   Could one use high density server PSU (straight through airflow vs 90 deg in ATX style), a very high capacity back mounted radiator, custom pump, custom reservoir, custom wiring harness which results in perfect front to back airflow?  Of course they could.  It also quintupled the number of suppliers, the number of assembly steps and the number of potential places which can cause delays or failures.

Sometimes "realistically good" design using off the shelf components beats ridiculously optimized custom solution especially when production time is so sensitive.


Still it would be nice if HashFast can comment/clarify on the PSU orientation.  Despite what was stated off thread I highly doubt that the PSU are custom designed for reverse airflow.   It would be pointless, expensive, and time consuming.  Hashfast went out their way to use off the shelf components for everything else.  To then use some pointlessly expensive reverse airflow PSU makes absolutely no sense.   It has never been stated by Hashfast, it is almost certainly not correct but it explicitly clarified I am sure a certain troll will spam another 100 posts about it.
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October 23, 2013, 12:41:27 AM
 #1612

...
Yeah agreed on all points.  Of course it has all been stated upthread but certain people are just here to troll.  

[...dreary pedantry...]

You, on the other hand, are just adding noise.
I'm certain you consult Wikipedia to learn which end of the hammer to smash your thumb with.
I'd rather watch luridly colored ponies than read your self-important droning about shit you knows nothing of.  

Next time you feel the urge to play the pedagogue & repeat for the Nth time the power handling of a 6 pin PCI E connector, with all the associated arithmetic, consider further investing in Hashfast instead, pl0x.
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October 23, 2013, 06:58:14 AM
 #1613

Where is our update?
I'm tired of this bs.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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October 23, 2013, 06:59:12 AM
 #1614

Where is our update?
I'm tired of this bs.

I am also still waiting


 
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TIDEX



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October 23, 2013, 10:46:14 AM
 #1615

about 8 days left until they are considered late

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October 23, 2013, 11:11:03 AM
 #1616

Good Morning!

I saw yesterday someone had mentioned they were having a hard time getting though. We are here, however, the amount of incoming phone calls/emails has tripled in the past 30 days!  Shocked If you call in and get voicemail, PLEASE leave a message with your name, phone number and order number(s). We are calling/emailing everyone back in the order calls/emails have been received.

Thank you for your patience,
Erin & Cara

Hey Cara, Josh here. Any way we can get an update here on the forum of how things are going and if we're still on schedule for ~next week?

Thanks!

Yes, actually. We anticipate making an official announcement today.

Regards,
Erin

Lowered Expectations Undecided
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October 23, 2013, 04:45:39 PM
 #1617

Hi all,

We have posted a new blog regarding updated shipping news: https://hashfast.com/?p=2445&preview=true.

Cheers,

HashFast Team

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October 23, 2013, 04:50:14 PM
 #1618

TL;DR:  "Once the substrates arrive, we can place the silicon and finish production. Our updated estimate is that the rigs will begin shipping in mid-November."
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October 23, 2013, 04:56:30 PM
 #1619

Hi all,

We have posted a new blog regarding updated shipping news: https://hashfast.com/?p=2445&preview=true.

Cheers,

HashFast Team

Well so the predictions were not even close  Undecided

When is the MPP going to start counting, on 1st of november or when we receive the units ?

If first batch is shipping in mid november, when is going to be shipping the 2 batch babyjets and the upgrades ? 

I suppose you are going to leave some time between them, because if not anyone who buyed a sierra in sales time is just with x3 hashing power at the same time and all first batch customers got f***ed.

What about hosting ?

Any compensation for this delay ?


Really dissapointed with 2 weeks delay if everything goes as planed....




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Gyrsur
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October 23, 2013, 04:56:54 PM
 #1620

BitFury had a delay, informed the investors about.

KNC had a delay, did not inform about or to late.

HashFast is having a delay, informed the investors in very professional way with deep details about.

CoinTerra will have a delay or has already a delay regarding TapeOut.

HashFast is the only company which have a MPP.

EDIT: OK, CoinTerra has something with 20%.

https://cointerra.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

Quote
What is my protection against late delivery of the product?

Chances are slim, but if we do not deliver your confirmed December delivery within 30 days of our promise, we will credit your account 20% of the hash power.
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